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LionArcher posted:this stuff still waiting for examples so the rest of us can take part in the discussion! 
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Sep 16, 2021 20:17
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LionArcher posted:In fact it would be very easy to argue that the philosophical complexity of say the entirety of the wheel of time has a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than say a literary Darling’ like Finnigan’s Wake, or a modern example of a hyped up literally novel, the Goldfinch. so easy you are just about to do it....right....now.....?
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Sep 16, 2021 20:20
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People who read something other than fantasy or vampire romances are rapists and/or in the CIA
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Sep 16, 2021 20:24
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LionArcher posted:Take the recent revelations about the CIA infiltrating writers workshops at an academic level to encourage certain styles and tropes of writing.  http://kevinbrennanbooks.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/did-the-cia-infiltrate-the-iowa-writers-workshop-in-the-60s-uh-no/
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Sep 16, 2021 20:27
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LionArcher posted:In fact it would be very easy to argue that the philosophical complexity of say the entirety of the wheel of time has a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than say a literary Darling’ like Finnigan’s Wake, haha, good one. you almost got us there
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Sep 16, 2021 20:29
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Famethrowa posted:so easy you are just about to do it....right....now.....? Phone posted before and I have to go run errands but then I’ll do a post/examples sure.
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Sep 16, 2021 20:29
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LionArcher posted:Phone posted before and I have to go run errands but then I’ll do a post/examples sure. I'd take your time with your errands given how things are going, sorry.
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Sep 16, 2021 20:36
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Ras Het posted:People who read something other than fantasy or vampire romances are rapists and/or in the CIA Every moment I spend reading is a moment I don't spend doing those things. I don't do those things when I'm not reading, either, but that's beside the point.
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Sep 16, 2021 20:37
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WoT more philosophically complex than loving Finnegan's Wake, I'm heaving with delight
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Sep 16, 2021 20:44
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Finnegans Wake does not have an apostrophe in its title.
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Sep 16, 2021 20:46
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Finnegans Wake does not have an apostrophe in its title. drat your eyes 
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Sep 16, 2021 20:48
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Sham bam bamina! posted:
Sham bam bamina! posted:Finnegans Wake does not have an apostrophe in its title. 
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Sep 16, 2021 20:59
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(slides a pile of NK Jemisin novels to the cute girl at the Barnes and Noble counter) "That'll be $33.58.” "You're participating in a revolutionary act, you know." (Smiling politely through a cold wave of anticipation) "Oh, really?" "Yeah." "..." "..." "Alright, well, have a wonderful day!" "Thank you, you too" (leaves)
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Sep 16, 2021 21:01
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Heath posted:(slides one NK Jemisin novels to the cute girl at the Barnes and Noble counter)
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Sep 16, 2021 21:02
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Heath posted:(slides a pile of NK Jemisin novels to the cute girl at the Barnes and Noble counter)
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Sep 16, 2021 21:03
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im permabanned user patriarchystomper33.58
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Sep 16, 2021 21:04
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LionArcher posted:There’s a direct correlation in my life of white men who love this stuff and rapists men who abuse their power for gain (professors who sleep with their students and so on). LionArcher posted:Everybody calling Biden a rapist, might want to double check a few things.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:04
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Leon Einstein posted:My point is that good husbands don't gently caress/rape other women while married. The fact that he bought her a 4 million dollar apology ring doesn't change that. LionArcher posted:That’s a very strong judgment on your end. Sexual assault no,but plenty of people have sex with people outside of their marriage and are still good partners. It’s super easy to judge others, but you don’t know what their lives are life behind closed doors. Another Bill posted:'Not raping people' isn't a bullshit purity test, dude
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Sep 16, 2021 21:07
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LionArcher posted:often western literature is used as justification for the Capitalistic cult we all live in OP i like you for coming in and making bold claims right off the bat. That's pretty fun. However, I don't understand what you're saying, mainly because your brush is pretty big. If you had specific examples of the first three lines up there in the quote, that would help me understand. I have a question about your assertion in the last line. Are you saying that, in contrast to Western Literature's propensity towards affirming consumerism, Quality Books are Quality because they teach us how to behave?
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Sep 16, 2021 21:08
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Before I get going, pulling up posts of me defending Biden from the middle of round one of covid and the choice being him or loving Trump as a way of making me look like an rear end in a top hat (which I'm not saying I'm not) is uh... fun. It does tie into a point I may get to, but as I was shopping for chocolate chips to make my mother some killer chocolate chip cookies for her 71st birthday over the weekend, I realized the scope of what I want to say about literature and media in general is probably too wide for the specific claims I threw in this thread, so I'll take a moment to focus it specifically on the claims I made about literature being a genre.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:24
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Sep 16, 2021 21:27
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LionArcher posted:I realized the scope of what I want to say about literature and media in general is probably too wide for the specific claims I threw in this thread, so I'll take a moment to focus it specifically on the claims I made about literature being a genre. Wouldn't it just be much easier to argue the philosophical complexity of the entirety of Wheel of Time is a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than Finnegans Wake or The Goldfinch?
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Sep 16, 2021 21:33
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Franchescanado posted:Wouldn't it just be much easier to argue the philosophical complexity of the entirety of Wheel of Time is a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than Finnegans Wake or The Goldfinch? I would also like to see this.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:39
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I'm more interested in the idea that Donna Tartt is the James Joyce of our time.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:40
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I'm more interested in the idea that Donna Tartt is the James Joyce of our time.  don't put that in my head
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Sep 16, 2021 21:42
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Franchescanado posted:Wouldn't it just be much easier to argue the philosophical complexity of the entirety of Wheel of Time is a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than Finnegans Wake or The Goldfinch? Going by the infinite monkey theorem and the word count of Wheel of Time, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a Finnegans Wake in there somewhere tbh, so technically...
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Sep 16, 2021 21:44
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Franchescanado posted:Wouldn't it just be much easier to argue the philosophical complexity of the entirety of Wheel of Time is a far more advanced and morally complex narrative than Finnegans Wake or The Goldfinch? the vast, moral complexity of pulling on pigtails
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Sep 16, 2021 21:45
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ThePopeOfFun posted:OP i like you for coming in and making bold claims right off the bat. That's pretty fun. However, I don't understand what you're saying, mainly because your brush is pretty big. If you had specific examples of the first three lines up there in the quote, that would help me understand. Instead of bringing up bullshit from my loving sheet in an attempt to discredit anything I have to say going forward about literature, but instead focusing it on my claims in this thread, I appreciate this line of questioning. And I agree with your criticisms of my original point, IA, it is a broad brush. As for your actual question, I do not think that Quality books are quality because they need to teach us. I can think of a handful of authors and books that are good in part because their warning signs (or suggestions) on how probably not to behave. Funny enough though, the very title of this thread actually confirms your question though in the positive. Implying that being adult is reading what the OP defines as Real literature is also an implication on what is good and "adult" when if we look at the world around us there is no confirmation that being an "adult" is anything but a nightmare and a landmine field full of "lesser evil" choices. No, my point is that the claim of "real literature" is such an odd term and is often promoted/used as gatekeeping, either in online forums or in the real world in academic circles, but that the actual messaging of those books lofted as "great" and "mature" are more often than not is shallower than the works of "lesser genre's". I used WOT versus FW as a glib example partly because FW and WOT both on some levels deal with the same issue of time being cyclical, but FW deals with a much smaller cast and relies on the complexity of linguistic tactics (something fans of "real literature" often eat up, and again, on it's own I have no problem with. I have a problem when this is considered superior to more common vernacular and prose) to sell itself. There are strong christian undertones/narrative archetypes used in FW, while on the flip side, WOT actually plays with both christian theology but a lot of other philosophical/religious themes, and one could argue to a greater success than FW. Edit. Since I guess I'm the one arguing it. since Christian arch types is an often overplayed overused thematic device anyway in western literature, take a look at the fact that Christianity "borrowed" (stole) from other religions to create their doctrine in the first place. Having the lesser work (WOT) deep dive on both those themes but those of other religions that the bible borrowed from and those it did not borrow from (Hinduism Taoism and Buddhism would be the ones off the top of my head) does not inherently make the story or themes more complex, but in this particular case, I would say it does. furthermore, FW is touted as a masterpiece because of the complexity, not the characters, whereas with WOT there is a range of characters that all make monumental changes growth over the course of the series, including having the best example of a "chosen one" in all of fantasy literature. But again, FW is an older example, and I'm more interested would focus on criticism of "literary works" of the last thirty years. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 21:45
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derp posted:the vast, moral complexity of pulling on pigtails Out of 4.5 million words do you know how many times this was used? 60. But I'm not saying Jordon didn't need an editor.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:47
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I'm just glad this thread is active again 🙂
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Sep 16, 2021 21:51
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Great Scott! 4.5 megawords! ....4.5 megawords.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:52
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LionArcher posted:Out of 4.5 million words do you know how many times this was used? 60. But I'm not saying Jordon didn't need an editor. i guess this must come up a lot lol, you had that stat ready. an average of 5 pigtail pulls per novel is quite a lot more than i was expecting, though.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:58
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mdemone posted:
Their both critical darlings that care more about the prose than telling a story so...
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Sep 16, 2021 21:59
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i care more about prose than reading a story, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sep 16, 2021 22:01
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LionArcher posted:furthermore, FW is touted as a masterpiece because of the complexity, not the characters, whereas with WOT there is a range of characters that all make monumental changes growth over the course of the series, including having the best example of a "chosen one" in all of fantasy literature.  , but also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake#Characters
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Sep 16, 2021 22:05
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LionArcher posted:the actual messaging of those books lofted as "great" and "mature" are more often than not is shallower than the works of "lesser genre's". LionArcher posted:FW deals with a much smaller cast and relies on the complexity of linguistic tactics (something fans of "real literature" often eat up, and again, on it's own I have no problem with. I have a problem when this is considered superior to more common vernacular and prose) to sell itself. Also, I would argue that The Goldfinch, while beautiful, is actually quite sloppy in a lot of its prose, and cares a lot more about the story and "messaging" than delivering a sublime prose experience on a craft level, and many critics would put it closer to Wheel of Time than to Finnegans Wake in terms of its "quality"... but then I'd just be participating in a pile-on 
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Sep 16, 2021 22:06
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derp posted:i care more about prose than reading a story, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm not saying that's wrong or bad. I'm just saying it's firmly then it's own genre of priorities. It's a little like modern poetry thinking they have on impact on anything other than other people hooked on modern poetry, in the sense that it has little or no impact on anything else. It's fine, but it's not better than any other genre of literature. I've stuck to fantasy as my genre of choice to use as examples, but there is plenty of modern YA fantasy that is very popular that is as far as I'm concerned god awful. I'm not saying I don't read "real literature". I do. I try to read a large cross section because my job "author" kind of requires it.
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Sep 16, 2021 22:07
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derp posted:i care more about prose than reading a story, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Pretty much this. I don't know why you're so dismissive of prose, LionArcher. Good prose is the foundation for the pleasure of reading. I don't care if an author wrote 5 billion words over 20 novels if the order they're in sucks or is boring.
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Sep 16, 2021 22:10
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LionArcher posted:No, my point is that the claim of "real literature" is such an odd term and is often promoted/used as gatekeeping, either in online forums or in the real world in academic circles, but that the actual messaging of those books lofted as "great" and "mature" are more often than not is shallower than the works of "lesser genre's". If this is what you're saying: Great (western) books have shallow messaging. WoT has deep messaging. Therefore, WoT > Great Books? Then, I disagree because I don't think anyone has made a rule that says books have to have a message. LionArcher posted:Their both critical darlings that care more about the prose than telling a story so... I'd say I like prose more, but I'm not sure what you mean by telling a story. Prose tells the story, yes?
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Sep 16, 2021 22:10
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LionArcher posted:No, my point is that the claim of "real literature" is such an odd term and is often promoted/used as gatekeeping, either in online forums or in the real world in academic circles, this is a bizarre point, since critics, academics and fans of “real literature” want nothing more than for more people to find joy and read the great things they themselves enjoy (see: my own post history which is full of me not shutting up about Proust, because I honestly and earnestly want more people to read him not because of his high-brow and lofty ideas, but because he really owned), which is in fact the opposite of gatekeeping. hell, that was even the point of the OP back in 201X when this thread was made
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Sep 16, 2021 22:10
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