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Deptfordx posted:I'm assuming it's Calders Son/Nephew/Grandson from his last comment to Rikke about "Oh, you don't see everything with your eye then" after she tells him his family has been extinguished. I don’t have the book on me, but I’m pretty sure they refer to him as a ”half-son”. I’m guessing Calder had a son after his wife died. It could be Scale’s, but he was such a non-issue this trilogy that it probably doesn’t matter. Calder seems more likely since it was also mentioned that Clover was training the boy very briefly during the first book, and Scale doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who would appreciate Clover’s talents enough to send his kid to him for training Edit: also makes sense that regardless of who’s kid he is, Calder would keep him hidden. Stour didn’t seem the type to allow potential challengers to his throne around
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Sep 17, 2021 18:58
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Hmm, I am not sure I agree with one of the takes: I wouldn't say Leo comes out entirely on top at the end. Yes, he is regent. But he is a miserable crippled bastard (Glotka 2.0, now with a metal leg) who got outmaneuvered by Savine at the end. Even Orso gets a good shot in before his execution. Finree is clearly done with him as well after all that bullshit. Savine honestly comes out much better except for the whole Orso being dead thing. Zuri being something weird was something I figured after it is said Glotka was the one who arranged for her to be around. Also I honestly enjoyed Sulfur getting got, the fucker. But yeah I was rooting for Orso to at least survive in exile but so much for that. Poor Tunny.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:15
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Eminent Domain posted:Hmm, I am not sure I agree with one of the takes: One thing I noticed is Leo is kind of a proto-Glokta. Glokta was a miserable torturer for years, and it took a while for his heart to win over. He always said “pain doesn’t teach you to be compassionate, it just makes you try to avoid pain”. We also see Leo effectively kill Gorst, who’s last words are “Do you believe in redemption?” To which Leo replies “gently caress off” and Gorst says “you’re still young, you’ll learn”. So Leo may be a miserable misanthropic bastard, but he’s still young. He could see redemption decades from now Glokta-style.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:45
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Well, I'm not sure I liked this one too much, but I might change my opinion a bit when I've had some time to reflect on it. I will say Vic's story arc was immensely satisfying to me. Really, her throwing away the signet ring and finally going off to chase her dream was the perfect ending for her. I'm also glad someone finally went "no" to the whole mess of schemers and masterminds all making the "hard choices for the greater good". It something that often grates on me, because I very often don't buy it. It's usually presented as this simple moral calculus like the trolley problem, but that's an imaginary scenario where you control all the variables. In messy reality you don't actually know how things will or would have turned out. Not even Rikka can see the future perfectly all the time. Speaking of, presenting her decision to hand over Orso as sad but necessary pragmatism was bullshit. Oh right, Leo is really going to invade the north? Like he even could right now? And if he was so dead set on it, he'd change his mind about it over this? Tell him to gently caress himself and smuggle Orso off to Sipani. It feels like the right thing to do because it is. I suppose I might also be a little soured on Rikka from before that, because her victory over Calder seemed kinda unearned. The reader sees her scheme coming from miles away, but everyone else is caught by complete surprise? Then there's like a series of 5 POVs in row all saying how "wow, can't believe how great this plan is, everything is going perfectly, and wow, can't believe someone as smart as Calder messed up so bad at everything", and it's this conga line of utter humiliation for the antagonists that makes it seem just...too easy? Meanwhile in Adua, Vic & Gorst (RIP) are literally fighting tooth and nail against bad luck and circumstances. Oh, some good luck with fewer guards in the gatehouse you intended to barricade yourself in? Turns out the bar for the door is also missing, enjoy! Some other thoughts...Zuri being Ishri I think a lot of people saw coming, but was I the only one who thought Selest would turn out to be Tolomei? The first time she meets Savine, she makes a comment that nothing could have kept her from attending this party, why, even if Bayaz had locked her up in the house of the maker she would still have a found a way to attend. Guess I got hung up on that too much, but it seemed like a cute hint at the time
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Sep 17, 2021 19:49
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Crespolini posted:Well, I'm not sure I liked this one too much, but I might change my opinion a bit when I've had some time to reflect on it. Totally agree on this. Calder getting duped so easily goes against everything we've seen and been told about the character. You build him up as this canny counter to his brother and his son's impetuousness in the previous books, and then have him just get effortlessly crushed? And where the hell was Bayaz during all of this? His only response to losing his grip on both the North and the Union was a few veiled threats and sending Sulfur on a murder mission when the damage was already done? I mean, it kills all of the subtle menace that has been built up around the character.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:09
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Paddyo posted:Totally agree on this. Calder getting duped so easily goes against everything we've seen and been told about the character. You build him up as this canny counter to his brother and his son's impetuousness in the previous books, and then have him just get effortlessly crushed? And where the hell was Bayaz during all of this? His only response to losing his grip on both the North and the Union was a few veiled threats and sending Sulfur on a murder mission when the damage was already done? I mean, it kills all of the subtle menace that has been built up around the character. One thing to remember is that Calder is a canny schemer but the only reason he doesn't die half a dozen times in Heroes is Bayaz pulling the strings. He pays off Tenways and Stranger and the two other northmen who save Calder from his father in law trying to off him. Shivers is just a lucky accident because gently caress Dow. I think he should have been more suspicious of what was going on but Rikke also had his son. And then executes Stout and drops the corpse at his feet. Part of the issue with Bayaz is that all of his usual levers get ripped out by the Breakers. Sulfur is ol' reliable but he's only one Eater and everything is on fire. And the few times he tries multiple characters tell him to gently caress off.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:19
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Eminent Domain posted:One thing to remember is that Calder is a canny schemer but the only reason he doesn't die half a dozen times in Heroes is Bayaz pulling the strings. He pays off Tenways and Stranger and the two other northmen who save Calder from his father in law trying to off him. Shivers is just a lucky accident because gently caress Dow. That's a good point. You hear an awful lot about Calder being this big schemer, but he never actually does much of anything on his own in the previous books.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:37
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During the book I thought Joe was sort of pulling a gendered thing with Savine and Rikke succeeding in resisting Bayaz where Jezal and Glokta had failed in the previous trilogy. That gets undone a bit though because Glokta does have his grand plan for uprooting Bayaz from the Union and Savine is just a part of that plan. So its more that there are a bunch of characters who have learned not to trust Bayaz and know what he's all about. Orso even announces it to the public during Savine's trial. Bayaz's part in the drama is a very very open secret by now and people are starting to do something about it. Heck, it makes Bayaz' plan to have Hildi inherit the Valint and Balk names seem silly. He should have her come onto the scene with a new name and unknown sources of capital. I assume Valint and Balk as a bank are still active in some area of the world, but not sure where. Styria? Wouldn't Monza and her Eater have chased them out? The Old Empire? Zacharius wouldn't allow it surely. The South? Also, the bit with the bank vault being empty. Is that meant to be a jab at finance, that it's all fake, or that they smuggled all the paperwork out of the Union long ago and maybe the original debts and deeds and promissory notes and so forth are all held with Bayaz at the Great Northern Library? Because the issue is, if you're supposed to be a powerful magus but you can't actually use magic too often because its mostly leaked out of the world and you just lost all the paperwork proving you own stuff when your bank branches were burned, how do you actually exercise that power? Especially when a lot of your bank staff was also executed in purges and your right hand man was just killed? Of course this sets up Bayaz getting desperate in a final trilogy and overusing the Seed and accidentally opening the doors to the demon world because he's been pushed to the brink.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:37
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Paddyo posted:That's a good point. You hear an awful lot about Calder being this big schemer, but he never actually does much of anything on his own in the previous books. Well, while it's true that Calders reputation might well be overblown, it's not like he has to be a genius here. Like, maybe consider the enemy might be pretending to be weaker than they are, maybe don't deathmarch your army, maybe wonder why your scouts don't return instead of walking blindly into an ambush by three (3!) other armies hidden around the battlefield. Bah. But I guess he did get the last laugh though, kinda. Edit: And also, it's not really a complaint of tactical realism for me, it's that it wasn't (imo) very satisfying storywise. Just too smoothly sailed, and much too much praise heaped on them for it. Crespolini fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Sep 17, 2021 |
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Sep 17, 2021 20:52
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That pretty much sums up my feelings about the book. It just wasn't very satisfying story-wise.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:22
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I’m almost halfway through TWOC and I’m pretty sure that Rikke falling out with the Nail and Isern is just a trick to lure Calder into a trap and/or reveal Corleth as a spy (I can’t actually remember what her backstory is). As for Pike, I’m trying to work out what his angle is. Is he working to his own agenda, or is he carrying out some scheme of Glokta’s to break the power of Bayaz? There have been hints that the master plan is to break the seals between the worlds and bring Euz back…
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Sep 17, 2021 23:28
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Ccs posted:
It almost seems like a Chekov's gun that never got fired. I was expecting them to find the seed or the divider and for the Great Change to REALLY go off the rails...
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Sep 17, 2021 23:40
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Crespolini posted:Edit: And also, it's not really a complaint of tactical realism for me, it's that it wasn't (imo) very satisfying storywise. Just too smoothly sailed, and much too much praise heaped on them for it. I felt like this might be deliberate, story wise, to make Leo betraying Orso later on feel especially twisty. Everything seems to be going so well for the characters we care about. Rikke rebuffed her enemies that even had Bayaz' help, so we sort of suspect things could keep going well and then Leo succeeds in saving Savine and Orso and it's like "awesome, all the pieces are on the board to rebuff Bayaz both in the Union and in the North and for all our protagonists to remain alive and repair their fractured relationships. And then Leo stabs Forest and things go to hell.
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Sep 18, 2021 01:21
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One thing I was half expecting to happen that didn't was Ninefingers showing up. Seemed like a long shot but there's a chapter in this book that ends with his name dropped, a few references to the spot where he "died" in the original trilogy, and one of the characters recalls being inspired by his tenacity as Lamb. He'd have to be pretty old by now but I wonder if he'll show up in the future, seeing as he's not confirmed dead yet.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:09
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I hope his story is done. He got a decent ending all things considered.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:10
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The Ninth Layer posted:One thing I was half expecting to happen that didn't was Ninefingers showing up. Seemed like a long shot but there's a chapter in this book that ends with his name dropped, a few references to the spot where he "died" in the original trilogy, and one of the characters recalls being inspired by his tenacity as Lamb. He'd have to be pretty old by now but I wonder if he'll show up in the future, seeing as he's not confirmed dead yet. i was hoping for this but only slightly disappointed it didnt happen
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Sep 18, 2021 17:21
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Crespolini posted:I hope his story is done. He got a decent ending all things considered. Yeah this. especially since most all of the old guard were in this trilogy to die. It was very Abercrombie, but if Logen showed up just to get iced by some rando I'd be kinda bummed.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:46
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A thing about Calder getting tricked so easily, he wasn't really. Jonas Cloverfield was tricked, and because ultimately Calder was using him as a dowsing rod he thought if he struck before Rikke's reinforcements had come back it'd work out. The spy mattered as well, but if Cloverfield hadn't bought Rikke's deception then Calder wouldn't have imo.
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Sep 19, 2021 00:14
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cloverfield lol
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Sep 19, 2021 00:29
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Tofu Injection posted:Yeah this. especially since most all of the old guard were in this trilogy to die. It was very Abercrombie, but if Logen showed up just to get iced by some rando I'd be kinda bummed. i was hoping he would just be around in the background or something. i miss him
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Sep 19, 2021 00:37
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Man, what a waste of a pov with Orso. Why even have so many chapters with him if all he does is stay in a cage the entire book. Too bad too, him and clover were the only points of view I really enjoyed reading. Did any other books hide the intentions of the characters the way this book did? It felt like all the surprises came from external sources in those books. I guess clover betraying Stour in the last one, but that's still part of this trilogy I guess.
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Sep 19, 2021 01:25
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That is a criticism I agree with. Keeping so much from the reader. Rikkes whole POV only works because her whole plan is hidden from the reader. That’s not normally how the povs work in these books, usually we know what the character knows. Not so here, I’m not sure if I agree with that decision as far as consistency goes, but Joe kind of wrote himself into a corner here. It was either leave the reader in the dark or dispense with all suspense.
Ccs fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 04:32
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Ccs posted:That is a criticism I agree with. Keeping so much from the reader. Rikkes whole POV only works because her whole plan is hidden from the reader. That’s not normally how the povs work in these books, usually we know what the character knows. Not so here, I’m not sure if I agree with that decision as far as consistency goes, but Joe kind of wrote himself into a corner here. It was either leave the reader in the dark or dispense with all suspense. Leo's as well, but there were hints
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Sep 19, 2021 05:54
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Just finished it. I felt it was by far the weakest of his First Law books but like pizza, even when it's bad it's good. For me, the best part of the book was the last chapter where Rikke had the vision. Bayaz bringing Juvens back from the dead? Sign me up. Ccs posted:That is a criticism I agree with. Keeping so much from the reader. Rikkes whole POV only works because her whole plan is hidden from the reader. That’s not normally how the povs work in these books, usually we know what the character knows. Not so here, I’m not sure if I agree with that decision as far as consistency goes, but Joe kind of wrote himself into a corner here. It was either leave the reader in the dark or dispense with all suspense. Yeah, I saw that coming from a mile away and was definitely irked. Jim Butcher, author of The Dresden Files, has done that same poo poo in his recent books.
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Sep 19, 2021 06:22
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Hughmoris posted:Just finished it. Bayaz wouldn't be doing that, given that he murdered Juvens and all. unless its an accident, but my guess is accidental or otherwise that was Glustrod
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Sep 19, 2021 07:34
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Concerning Rikke's last vision, Euz was previously said to have left for somewhere, so if it's someone returning...
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Sep 19, 2021 09:33
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Ccs posted:That is a criticism I agree with. Keeping so much from the reader. Rikkes whole POV only works because her whole plan is hidden from the reader. That’s not normally how the povs work in these books, usually we know what the character knows. Not so here, I’m not sure if I agree with that decision as far as consistency goes, but Joe kind of wrote himself into a corner here. It was either leave the reader in the dark or dispense with all suspense. Then again that was really bloody obvious from the start, at least to me. I almost sorta hoped it was a double fake out or something. Overall I think this was my least favorite trilogy so far, I don't really see myself wanting to reread it again like I did with the others.
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Sep 19, 2021 09:40
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Tofu Injection posted:Bayaz wouldn't be doing that, given that he murdered Juvens and all. unless its an accident, but my guess is accidental or otherwise that was Glustrod If there's one guy I want back it's Kanedias. But that makes no more sense than Juvens. So likely Glustrod. But maybe Glustrod is not so bad as he was made out. I mean he did get poo poo on by his brothers and father and history is written by the winners, who are enormous C-words to a man.
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Sep 19, 2021 09:43
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Tofu Injection posted:Bayaz wouldn't be doing that, given that he murdered Juvens and all. unless its an accident, but my guess is accidental or otherwise that was Glustrod and beyond the door a figure rose from the seething sea, a figure made of blinding light, and his feet left smouldering footsteps in the shingle, and he spoke in thunder. Great Father Khalul. Arch Priest of the Temple of Sarkant. Holiest of all whose feet touch the earth. Humbler of the proud, righter of wrongs, teller of truths. Light shines from him as it shines from the stars. When he speaks it is with the voice of God. I doubt this is it, "I am returned" implies it's someone who's been away for a loooooong time and khalul has only recently disappeared but I would like to finally "see" him, since he's never appeared in any of the TEN books
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Sep 19, 2021 10:19
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So, after a bit of marinating, here are my thoughts on the book. It was...ok, but for the whole trilogy Joe really fumbled the plot for the Union. His faux-French Revolution takes place over less than 2 years and skips over the juiciest bits. I can understand simplifying history but there was a poo poo ton of stuff that went on between 1789 and 1795/1799. Trying to cram it into that small of a time frame really didn't help things. And, honestly, it really feels like Joe doesn't like writing about the Union anymore, he stretched out a one book concept over three and kept repeating the same beats over and over. I hate how Orzo died but he went out as himself, hating Hangings and gave Leo one last dig. I do agree that the epilogue really felt like Joe was setting up the next Trilogy, just in a not so subtle way. Hopefully he writes stand alone books about non-Union characters in the interim.
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Sep 19, 2021 10:53
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The problem with the union is the more modern it becomes the less interesting it also becomes. Perhaps not really a spoiler that.
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Sep 19, 2021 14:42
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Doctor Jeep posted:and beyond the door a figure rose from the seething sea, a figure made of blinding light, and his feet left smouldering footsteps in the shingle, and he spoke in thunder. I really doubt it’s Khalul, he’s just a dude like Bayaz. The quote you’re reading from is from the perspective of a Gurkish worshipper, so yeah they obviously see him as pretty much God, but from what we know he’s just a Magi on par with Bayaz. Glustrod makes the most sense, since he is humanity’s main antagonist. Euz seems a little too powerful to be a character.
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Sep 19, 2021 15:13
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I am pretty loving disappointed about Orso. I mean, I guess I should have seen it coming because it is sort of what the author does. It is probably going to take me a long time to be willing to reread the trilogy because of it though.
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Sep 19, 2021 16:53
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ZombieLenin posted:I am pretty loving disappointed about Orso. I mean, I guess I should have seen it coming because it is sort of what the author does. It does sucks, but it was written in stone from the first time he talks about how he hates hangings.
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Sep 19, 2021 16:58
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ZombieLenin posted:I am pretty loving disappointed about Orso. I mean, I guess I should have seen it coming because it is sort of what the author does. I’m mostly just irked because that whole story line and all that character development seems pointless given the way it ended. It seemed like the only point was to jerk around the reader.
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Sep 19, 2021 17:38
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Paddyo posted:I’m mostly just irked because that whole story line and all that character development seems pointless given the way it ended. It seemed like the only point was to jerk around the reader. It seemed perfectly in character for Abercrombie, tbh. Also, I'm currently listening to / reading a biography of the Marquis de Lafayette...I've just hit the French revolution portion and it was pretty hilarious to see what beats Abercrombie picked up and what beats he ignored.
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Sep 19, 2021 17:45
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ulmont posted:It seemed perfectly in character for Abercrombie, tbh. Hero of Two Worlds by Mike Duncan? Just finished it myself. Great freaking read. What an epic badass. Kept expecting Leo to have the full Lafayette arc… Paddyo fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 18:01
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ulmont posted:It seemed perfectly in character for Abercrombie, tbh. You’re right, it absolutely is. I am still disappointed; for me this would be like GRRM killing off Tyrion. That’s how much I was invested in that particular character.
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Sep 19, 2021 18:47
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ZombieLenin posted:You’re right, it absolutely is. I am still disappointed; for me this would be like GRRM killing off Tyrion. That was actually one of my nitpicks from this trilogy. it felt a lot like Abercrombie really went full Tyrion with Orso. Clever indolent prince who turns out to be a brilliant politician and also has a heart of gold? A little too familiar after 8 seasons of GOT. Yorkshire Pudding fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 21:53
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the parallels never occurred to me but yeah now that you mention it it's obvious re orso:tyrion i love the scene in book 2 so much where leo and orso both go meet jappo. leo is immediately thrown off by jappo's open homosexuality and hyper-hedonism, and when jappo tries the same act on orso he doesn't miss a beat. his casual indifference to debauchery becomes an asset when he's perhaps the only person on the planet that can truly relate to jappo's life experience and outlook
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Sep 19, 2021 23:20
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