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Hydralisks have a special place in my heart from all the time I wasted running them around maps as a kid.
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Sep 15, 2021 05:32
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Zerg theme music isn't as prog as Terran, -1 points
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Sep 15, 2021 15:10
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Zerg, the Tyranids with the serial numbers filed off. A little reminder that Warcraft II in space began as a Warhammer 40k project before the license deal fell through/was pulled/whatever. (Protoss are Eldar-"inspired" I think?) And yeah, they run on magic superbiology, don't think too hard about it. achtungnight posted:Clearly Blizzard's understanding of symbiotic lifeforms was heavily influenced by Marvel Comics. I wonder if the Zerg have Venom. They certainly seem to enjoy Carnage. I'm fairly sure Abathur* could cook up a Venom-type Zerg in like 5 minutes if they don't have one already. *Zerg character from 2, in charge of superbiology research.
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Sep 15, 2021 18:01
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The Zerg were more starship trooper bugs than tyranids tbh, and i think the tyranids took more aesthetic cues from the zerg than vice versa
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Sep 15, 2021 18:34
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 This box set was dated 2 years before starcraft came out. I can see some similarities
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Sep 15, 2021 19:07
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everybody gangsta till a zergling whips out a cannon
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Sep 15, 2021 21:22
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Acerbatus posted:The Zerg were more starship trooper bugs than tyranids tbh, and i think the tyranids took more aesthetic cues from the zerg than vice versa Also both probably took inspriration from Xenomorphs
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Sep 16, 2021 15:37
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All I know is that the ravener and the hydralisk are  close
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Sep 16, 2021 15:42
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Maybe this is just me, but whenever I see pictures of the tyranids they seem like cheap knock-offs of the zerg. Emphasis on cheap, like they are the badly painted and proportioned Chinese bootleg action figures. Which is to say that even if the zerg were inspired by them, they took the overall designs in a direction I find much more appealing for a race of mutating biotech aliens. Although I would argue that the more important inspiration for both of them was a broad mishmash of pop sci-fi. Both Warhammer and Starcraft made it their business to distill a century of sci-fi aliens into broad archetypes as factions; neither of them are supposed to be unique. Instead they're meant to be instantly familiar. Clarste fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Sep 17, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 16:25
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Yeah, bug aliens have been a sci-fi staple for a long time but the Xenomorph is such a fantastic design that it was bound to be copied, and for some of its imitators to get successful and influential in turn. I like the Tyranids a bit more as a high concept but the Zergs have much more diverse designs and, as we'll see in the next campaign, even something ressembling individual personalities, which would be unthinkable for the Tyranids.
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Sep 16, 2021 19:00
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Yeah count me in on not really thinking the starcraft races are rip-offs of Warhammer 40k. They're ripping off/inspired by lots of things. The Protoss/eldar comparison baffles me a bit.
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Sep 16, 2021 19:54
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Laughing Zealot posted:The Protoss/eldar comparison baffles me a bit.
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Sep 16, 2021 19:57
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Space elves, although the dark split is preeeeetty different between both universes
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Sep 16, 2021 20:58
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There's no real aesthetic similarity, but the concept of "ultra advanced psychic aliens" is at least a shared element.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:10
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Protoss feel more like a generic throwback to classic sci-fi if anything, they don't have any of the fabulousness of the Eldars either.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:18
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YaketySass posted:Protoss feel more like a generic throwback to classic sci-fi if anything, they don't have any of the fabulousness of the Eldars either. The Protoss are kinda fabulous... or perhaps gaudy.
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Sep 17, 2021 01:58
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SC1 Zealots stomp around like angry gorillas instead of the light footed space elf movement of SC2 zealots/eldar, it's the best.
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Sep 17, 2021 02:29
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Acerbatus posted:SC1 Zealots stomp around like angry gorillas instead of the light footed space elf movement of SC2 zealots/eldar, it's the best. mild unit action spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvsFDO9K10
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Sep 17, 2021 08:24
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Acerbatus posted:SC1 Zealots stomp around like angry gorillas instead of the light footed space elf movement of SC2 zealots/eldar, it's the best. When I think about the SC1 Zealots, it makes me think that the Predator was a bigger influence on Protoss visual design than any Space Elves.
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Sep 17, 2021 13:13
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As the Zerg are Xenomorphs The Protoss are Predators. They have punch daggers, can cloak, obsession with honor and such fond of jungles etc.
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Sep 17, 2021 14:41
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Acerbatus posted:SC1 Zealots stomp around like angry gorillas instead of the light footed space elf movement of SC2 zealots/eldar, it's the best. As said before the sound design in SC1 is very good overall but the Zealot attack sound is next level.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:45
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YaketySass posted:Protoss feel more like a generic throwback to classic sci-fi if anything, they don't have any of the fabulousness of the Eldars either. Yeah, I think in one of the articles I linked earlier in the thread (maybe in the Battlecruiser post?) one of the devs explicity says that the Protoss were primarily based off the Grays, although the Predator influence seems strong as well.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:45
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JohnKilltrane posted:Yeah, I think in one of the articles I linked earlier in the thread (maybe in the Battlecruiser post?) one of the devs explicity says that the Protoss were primarily based off the Grays, although the Predator influence seems strong as well. Always felt like the Independence Day aliens influenced their design a bit too.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:48
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Episode II: Overmind    Mission 1: Among the Ruins   Awaken, my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me. Behold that I shall set you among the greatest of my Cerebrates, that you might benefit from their wisdom and experience. Yet your purpose is unique. While they carry forth my will to the innumerable Broods, you have but one charge entrusted to your care. For I have found a creature that may yet become the greatest of my agents. Even now it resides within a protective chrysalis, awaiting its rebirth into the swarm. You must watch over the chrysalis and ensure that no harm comes to the creature within it. Go now and keep safe my prize.Mission Objectives: Create a Spawning Pool Create a Hydralisk Den Protect the chrysalis We’re finally here: the Zerg campaign. Here’s our start:  We’re going to go over everything we have, with the help of another Cerebrate, Daggoth, who serves as the tutorial to the new, Zerg-specific mechanics. First up, we’ve got this:   The Hatchery is the heart of any Zerg colony. It spontaneously generates Larvae, which in turn are used to spawn your various warriors and minions.So right off the bat, we see something radically different about the Zerg: Our units don’t come from buildings. Check it out:   This is a Larva. You see in the bottom right that it’s got a variety of units it can morph into - a variety that will grow as the campaign progresses. Hatcheries gradually generate larvae until there’s three of them. This has an enormous impact for two main reasons. First, it gives Zerg more flexibility with its tech tree. Like if Terran decides to do air harassment, they’ve got to set up a bunch of Starports and churn out Wraiths. Meanwhile Zerg can just spend a single larvae cycle to pop out some Mutalisks and go right back to building whatever they were building before. The second and more important reason why this is a big deal is because it introduces a huge opportunity cost. Say you’re Terran. You’ve got a Command Center, a Barracks, and 100 minerals. What do you spend it on? Easy. You get one SCV and one Marine. There’s no sense queuing up two at one building and leaving the other building idle. For Zerg it’s a whole different story. If you had two Larvae and 100 minerals, that could get you one worker and one Zergling, or it could get you two workers, or it could get you two Zerglings, all in the same amount of time. Because Larvae can become anything, every single worker you have is a military unit you don’t have, and vice versa. With Terran (and Protoss), the rule of thumb is to just always be producing workers. With Zerg, it doesn’t work like that. You’ve got the potential to produce units much faster than anyone else, but at the same time you need to balance it carefully: get too much economy or military and you’re screwed. As a result, Zerg tends to produce economy or military in bursts rather than steady streams. Now, create a Drone and start gathering resources.Oh, right. Thanks, Daggoth. I got a little carried away there. We morph our Larva into a Drone. When we do so, it turns into an egg:  Over time, the egg hatches, becoming a Drone:  Drones are our workers, the Zerg equivalent of SCVs, though there are some differences (once we hit the Protoss campaign I’ll do a 3-for-1 Unit Spotlight that looks at the workers of all three races). This one, like our two starting Drones, gets to work on harvesting minerals. While we’re here, let’s also get a closeup of this little guy:  We’ve seen plenty of him already: the Zergling, our basic unit. 35 HP and 5 melee damage, dished out at brutally high speed. Also, is anyone else super weirded out by the way the Remastered made their claws and arms look so human? I find it kind of uncomfortable. Zerg are supposed to be the horror movie kind of unsettling, not the David Lynch kind of unsettling. Morphing that Drone means that we’re now supply blocked. I wish I knew what to do about that. Overlords provide control for your minions. As your forces grow in number, you must hatch more Overlords to control them.Oh! Thanks, Daggoth! What a pal. Yep, the Zerg version of Supply Depots aren’t buildings at all, but units. They spawn from Larvae, which adds another wrinkle to the opportunity-cost dynamic mentioned above. Let’s take a look at one:  Yep, it’s not just a unit, but a flying unit! And not just any flying unit, it’s our flying Detector! Of course, this is a mixed blessing: on the one hand, it’s nice to have mobile Depots that have other uses on top of providing supply; on the other hand, they’re also a lot more vulnerable. Did I mention that they’re the slowest unit in the game? And by a significant margin, too. It should probably go without saying that Overlords themselves don’t take any supply to spawn. Oh, and as Daggoth said, Zerg technically have “control,” not “supply.” Each race has a different word for “food.” Colloquially, though, “supply” is almost always used for all three. To create new warrior strains, you must generate the various hive structures. The Drones themselves mutate into these structures. Yet be careful. Never use your last Drone to make a building.Hands up if you’ve ever lost a Zerg mission by failing to heed that last bit of advice. There’s one in particular I’m thinking of in the expansion where I’ve done it multiple times. But yeah, this is another crucial difference for the Zerg: Drones actually become the buildings, meaning you lose the Drone in the process. Every time you get a new building, you need to replace the Drone. Again, another layer to that whole “Larvae opportunity cost” thing. Now, order the Drone to become a Spawning Pool. You’ll notice that structures can only implant themselves on the Creep. If you remember Terran mission 2, the Creep is the purple-y ground stuff. In Starcraft 2 it has multiple functions, but here it just controls building: Zerg can only build on Creep, and Terran and Protoss can’t build on it. The fluff for this is that since Zerg buildings are living organisms, they depend on the Creep to provide them with nutrients, etc. You can make Creep Colonies to extend the Creep, but only a Hatchery can be built upon open ground.Yep, that’s the purpose of the Creep Colony. Remember those? Been a while since we’ve seen one:  Daggoth didn’t mention it, but Hatcheries also extend the Creep. According to the manual, Hatcheries are the only Zerg building to be genetically engineered to contain its own Creep. Anyway, we eventually get our Spawning Pool built.  Getting it up allows us to morph our Larvae into Zerglings. The fluff behind this is kind of cool: the idea is that Zerg buildings contain the genetic codes for certain strains and common specialized mutations for those strains (as well as, presumably, being a place for those units to chill when they aren’t needed). Morphing a structure is kind of like donating a book to a library. Wait, if the structures have the genetic code for the units, and the structures are morphed from Drones, and the Drones are morphed from Larvae, doesn’t that mean that Larvae already have the genetic code somewhere in them and don’t really need the structures? Eh, best not to think about it. We’ve got three Larvae on hand, so we morph them into three Zerglings.     Just kidding! We actually morph them into six Zerglings. Lings come in pairs - for fifty minerals and one supply, we get two of them. This makes them extremely cost-efficient. The Spawning Pool also allows us to get Metabolic Boost:  This dramatically increases the movement speed of our Zerglings. It’s 100% essential.  Greetings, I am Zasz. I too am a Cerebrate of the Overmind. I have located a small band of Terrans who could threaten the chrysalis and the hive cluster. You must not allow them to leave here alive.New Mission Objective: Destroy the Terran encampment. Oh, right, the chrysalis! Here it is:  The “Protect the chrysalis” objective is a sham, by the way. The chrysalis can’t be destroyed: it’s an object like the Psi Emitter that can be moved around by workers. Zasz also gives us a glimpse of the Terran base:  No problem. Now that we have a Spawning Pool, we can do something with our Creep Colony:   Remember these? Sunken Colonies are incredibly powerful ground defense. They’re mutated from Creep Colonies and once mutated they’ll continue to expand/maintain Creep. And we get them up just in time to see them in action:     It sends a tentacle down into the earth to shoot up and impale its target, like this luckless Marine here. Brutal. And unlike Bunkers, they're completely independent - just plunk it down and forget it. As you might guess, that's a double-edged sword. Also note the colour: Brown. Matt, Jimmy, Mengsk, and Duke are all gone; we’re up against the tattered remnants of the Confederacy - the last survivors of Omega Squadron. Another structure! This one’s called the Evolution Chamber:  It contains the weapon and armour upgrade for all Zerg ground units. Weapon upgrades are split between melee and ranged; armour is universal. Here we’ve got the Hydralisk Den:  It’s like the Spawning Pool, but for Hydralisks. As you can see, it’s got two upgrades: on the left is movement speed, on the right is attack range. Also, it pulsates. Every Zerg structures pulsates a little, but the Hydra Den really gets into it. And of course that means:  Hydralisks. Zerg’s all-round unit. 75 minerals, 25 gas, and one supply for a unit with 80 HP and 10 ranged damage. You can basically think of a Hydralisk as being as strong as two Marines. Ish. They’re a solid, well-rounded unit that does well against most of what we'll be up against. One time as an experiment I tried to do every Zerg mission with little more than increasing stacks of Hydralisks - there was only one mission this didn't work well on, and that was towards the end of the expansion. Oh, also, while we're on the topic of buildings: the Extractor.  What can I say. It’s the Refinery, but for Zerg. We need it to harvest gas. Also, fun fact: Vespene gas looks different for each race. SCVs carry it in canisters, but Zerg have got it… bundled? Collected? In some kind of webbing or something. It’s a nice touch. Finally, it’s time for action. Here’s our army:  Two stacks of Zerglings, one stack of Hydras, for 36 units in all. That’s roughly the size of the largest attack forces I ever used in the Terran campaign, but it’s Zerg time now and that means bigger armies. We head up north to check it out and run into an infantry ambush:     Firebats roast Zerglings, but not when they’re this outnumbered. Up the ramp and over to the side, we find…     A Starport. Guarded by Goliaths and Wraiths. See, one advantage to Starcraft making its campaigns sequential is that the Zerg and Protoss campaigns assume you’ve played the Terran campaign and so don’t tutorialize you nearly as much. Difficulty-wise, this mission is probably on par with mission 5 or 6 of the Terran campaign; it’s still softballing us, but nowhere near to the same extent as the first couple missions did. Anyway, the Wraiths and Goliaths are in serious trouble.    Fortunately, the Wraiths don’t have Cloaking - small as this map is, I still don’t have the patience to wait for an Overlord to cross it. Down the ramp and into the base.    More Marines, more Goliaths, more Wraiths.              All gone. Dead dead dead. Our Zerglings are also mostly dead, but that’s what Zerglings do. They run in, deliver a terrifying amount of damage, and die. You just make more. They’re cheap and they cross the map quickly. They’re great. One last thing to highlight, since I might never use it in this campaign again: Burrowing. We can research it from the Hatchery and it allows our Drones, Zerglings, Hydras, and another, future unit to disappear into the earth, like so:    Every race has a means of being undetected. For Terran it was Wraith and Ghost Cloaking, for Zerg, it’s this. A burrowed unit can’t do anything and, if detected, is totally helpless. Here we see an unsuspecting Marine walk right over them.  Big mistake.    Unlike Wraith and Ghost Cloaking, Burrowing is extremely niche. We probably won’t see it much, if at all, after this - until the expansion, that is. That Marine does tip us off to the fact that the base we razed might not be the whole story. Head south and sure enough…     Success. (I'm still trying to decide what I want to do for our player character for this campaign, but I figured it's not worth delaying updates for. I might go back and insert it once I make a decision. I do like the idea of a Cerebrate crossed with the Stupid Newbie pic, but lack the chops to make that a reality. We'll see).
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Sep 17, 2021 18:41
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Zerg. Everything is a living organism, and the larva mechanics mean that unlike Terran and Protoss, Zerg need multiple hatcheries unconnected to expansion to have enough larvas to go around. (Sidenote I think larvas are the closest to what the Zerg were before the Xel-naga started messing around with them) The main Zerg gimmick is "evolution"/transformation. Larvas turn into everything, drones turn into buildings, some buildings and units can transform into other building/units. Since everything is a living being, every unit and building heal, although fairly slowly; damaged Zerg buildings visibly bleed, but the burnout drawback is Terran-exclusive. Last note, Someone might notice that while Terran training takes place inside the buildings, while Zerg morphing is in the open, that killing units being constructed is the way to go. Nope. Larva eggs undergoing morph have both stupid high HP (200) and stupid high armor (200) taking 0.5 damage from basically anything but a Yamato cannon (why would you waste a Yamato on an egg?) and a nuke. The only conventional force capable of cracking eggs before they spawn are stimpacked marines, because of sheer rate of fire.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:16
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Good old Zergling. I always respected how Starcraft's basic units all feel quite useful: Marines are iconic for a reason, Zerglings are extremely optimized to do their one thing and then die hilariously, etc.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:36
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Omobono posted:Zerg. Yep! This is called a "Macro Hatch" and we'll see them in... well, every mission but this one and the dungeon one. In fact, I normally get them in this mission, too. Don't know why I didn't this time. quote:(Sidenote I think larvas are the closest to what the Zerg were before the Xel-naga started messing around with them) Yep again! Thanks for mentioning this, I wasn't sure where to fit it in (a unit spotlight for the Larva seems... extraneous) and it's a cool bit of fluff. quote:Since everything is a living being, every unit and building heal, although fairly slowly; damaged Zerg buildings visibly bleed, but the burnout drawback is Terran-exclusive. Oh no! I can't believe I forgot to mention this. Thank you so much for catching that. I'll cover it in-depth in... Hmmm. Either in the next update or do a Mini-Mechanicspost about it. We'll see. quote:Last note, Someone might notice that while Terran training takes place inside the buildings, while Zerg morphing is in the open, that killing units being constructed is the way to go. Eggs have 10 armour, not 200, but that's still stupid high (the highest in the game, in fact). You're right that trying to kill an egg before it hatches is generally a waste. In fact, Larvae themselves also have 10 armour, though they've only got 25 HP. It is worth noting, however, that any damage inflicted upon the egg will transfer to the unit when it hatches. This is almost never worthwhile.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:36
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I really like that after the Zergs being completely silent and seemingly feral antagonists in the first campaign, you're introduced to the Overmind who's speaking with these self-aggrandising biblical undertones. It's an unexpected contrast both to Terrans and to the basic Zergs, and a cool way of alluding to it having an actual agenda.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:40
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They really put some work in, perfecting those sphincters for the remaster. Zerg buildings make more sense if you assume that they produce essential proteins or enzymes that the larvae can't make themselves, or that their tiny bodies can't make fast enough to carry out their metamorphosis in a reasonable amount of time.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:14
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Mini-Lorepost: What Do Bugs Need All This Crap For Anyway? The idea of a ravening swarm harvesting resources and researching upgrades seems kind of weird, but the devs actually put some thought into it. The various Minerals of the galaxy are what the actual claws, teeth, carapaces, etc of the Zerg creatures are made out of. The near-instantaneous evolution of Zerg creatures isn't easy to pull off, and for anything other than the simplest strains the Larva's natural capabilities need to be augmented by the enormous power contained within Vespene gas. Meanwhile, Upgrades are a bit stickier. I don't think this is explicitly mentioned in the SC1 manual, but the general idea is that the Zerg are all about efficiency. Certain powerful mutations aren't worth applying to the genetic strains of the base unit and so are left to be grafted in by Cerebrates in battles where they think it will be worthwhile. Zerglings as a whole don't need to be speedy, just the ones one the front lines. But how do these mutations and evolutions get applied to already extant members of that strain? Same way that the Wraith cloaks itself: Space Magic. Now you know!
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Sep 17, 2021 20:15
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JohnKilltrane posted:Episode II: Overmind This motherfucker and this motherfucking line right here. This one and another one in the expansion are seared into my mind.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:27
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JohnKilltrane posted:
The Zerg were by far my least familiar race when playing Starcraft and maybe I'm just an idiot, but why is this the case? As long as you've got a Hatchery it'll still spit out Larvae and you can always make more Drones, right? EDIT: oh duh, because you might not have enough minerals to make a new Drone. 
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Sep 17, 2021 20:35
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The first time I played this, there was something wrong with my computer's sound output and the Overmind's lines came out garbled and staticky (on top of how the voice is supposed to sound). It was incredibly creepy, to the point I noped out after a line or two and tried skipping past the Zerg campaign entirely so I wouldn't have to hear it (then again, I kind of wanted to do that anyway, as a kid I wasn't keen on playing as the Zerg, between being villain-coded and just kind of gross, and was intrigued by the Protoss).
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Sep 17, 2021 20:38
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ninjahedgehog posted:The Zerg were by far my least familiar race when playing Starcraft and maybe I'm just an idiot, but why is this the case? As long as you've got a Hatchery it'll still spit out Larvae and you can always make more Drones, right? Also: The game does not consider buildings still under construction when checking whether or not you have that building. If a trigger that will end the map in defeat, for example, has the conditions: Player has 0 drones Player has 0 Hatcheries Player has 0 Zerg Eggs If you have a Hatchery currently still under production, and you use your only other drone to, for example, start building an Extractor on a nearby Geyser... the game will see you have no drones, and because the Hatchery isn't complete yet, the game doesn't see that you own one of those, either. Since you probably also have no eggs since you're just building your Hatchery... game over. Despite the fact that you are currently in the process of morphing a Hatchery. There is a level in the expansion that has this very specific trap.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:40
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Space Kablooey posted:This motherfucker and this motherfucking line right here. This one and another one in the expansion are seared into my mind. Yep. It's one of my favourites. Even though I always mentally read it as "*KNOW* that I am the Overmind." Thanks, Dak'kon. BlazetheInferno posted:Also: The game does not consider buildings still under construction when checking whether or not you have that building. Yep, this is exactly it. The level in question starts you with two Drones and no buildings. The logical next step is to morph one Drone into a Hatchery and the other into an Extractor (which don't require creep), which will lead to losing the mission as described above. I might do it on purpose when we get to that mission, just for old times' sake. Hell, knowing my memory (or lack thereof), I might even do it by accident.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:45
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JohnKilltrane posted:But how do these mutations and evolutions get applied to already extant members of that strain? Same way that the Wraith cloaks itself: Space Magic. Tailored retroviruses according to SC2. So, the same thing. 
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Sep 17, 2021 20:46
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JohnKilltrane posted:Eggs have 10 armour, not 200, but that's still stupid high (the highest in the game, in fact). You're right that trying to kill an egg before it hatches is generally a waste. In fact, Larvae themselves also have 10 armour, though they've only got 25 HP. It is worth noting, however, that any damage inflicted upon the egg will transfer to the unit when it hatches. This is almost never worthwhile.
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Sep 17, 2021 21:07
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MagusofStars posted:For most purposes, the only situation where attacking eggs is worthwhile is when you’ve killed everything else relevant nearby you in the base - drones, responding enemy forces, the Hatchery itself. Yeah fortunately the auto-attack AI is smart enough to ignore eggs until everything else is destroyed. It always took me a second to realize why they were still shooting after every building was razed until I remembered about the stray larvae and eggs still kicking around.
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Sep 17, 2021 21:34
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YaketySass posted:I really like that after the Zergs being completely silent and seemingly feral antagonists in the first campaign, you're introduced to the Overmind who's speaking with these self-aggrandising biblical undertones. It's an unexpected contrast both to Terrans and to the basic Zergs, and a cool way of alluding to it having an actual agenda.
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Sep 17, 2021 22:16
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:47 |
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YaketySass posted:I really like that after the Zergs being completely silent and seemingly feral antagonists in the first campaign, you're introduced to the Overmind who's speaking with these self-aggrandising biblical undertones. It's an unexpected contrast both to Terrans and to the basic Zergs, and a cool way of alluding to it having an actual agenda. not to mention that the Overmind also is a pretty awesome DJ on the side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtUYEjU2Jow
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Sep 17, 2021 23:22
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