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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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Fritz the Horse posted:a lot of this seems to revolve around endpoint (severe disease vs. infection). Based on the data from Israel, What's so frustrating to me is that, according to the Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/fda-pfizer-booster-covid.html), stuff like this: quote:Those who have criticized the administration’s booster strategy as overly broad or premature said the advisory committee acted as a necessary check on Friday. happens at the same time as stuff like this quote:But the panel unanimously embraced a fallback position to limit additional shots to older adults and others at high risk of severe Covid illness. Then, after an informal poll pushed by a senior F.D.A. official, committee members specified that health care workers, emergency responders and others whose jobs put them at special risk should also be eligible for the booster shots. The official — Dr. Peter Marks, who oversees the F.D.A.’s vaccine division — said the at-risk group would also include teachers. The set of activities as described are not consistent with "a careful review of the data." They are consistent with one group of scientists claiming to be the true bearers of Science, and then making a contingent decision that aligns with their policy preferences under the veil of Science. Doing a straw poll and then deciding "well it's important to keep these jobs from infection but not these other people" is not the kind of thing that an unelected, unaccountable group of outside scientists should get to decide for the nation, and I hope that the Biden administration will not take their recommendation as dispositive.
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Sep 18, 2021 13:50
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Greg Abbott openly admitted to getting a booster already, and likely other VIPs got them too. Why is it good enough for them while everyone else has to wait for the green light from the panel with the Great Barrington Declaration signatory at the FDA? Why does the FDA know better than Israel's regulators?
Bathtub Cheese fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 14:06
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Fritz the Horse posted:a lot of this seems to revolve around endpoint (severe disease vs. infection). Based on the data from Israel, But that either or prioritization framing is problematic, since barring something really really unusual about Covid preventing infection should also prevent severe disease. And I would (and have) argue hard that we should aim to prevent infection as well as severe disease. The health data we have so far we've seen that any infection is capable of causing long-lasting health consequences that can significantly impede quality of life. Then there are the non-health effects to consider. It is not an exaggeration to say that a single infection could throughly gently caress up the lives of dozens of people. For example if I were to test positive everyone in my household would have to stay home for two weeks or more, even if it were asymptomatic. My wife works healthcare with at-risk populations and she can't be seeing patients when there's the slightest chance that she's in the incubation period so all those patients need to get rescheduled and will go without needed medical care until that happens. My kid is in daycare and if he were to test positive within a couple days of the family going into quarantine his whole daycare class would have to quarantine for two weeks as well leaving his teachers without work and seven or eight families scrambling to figure out child care or losing income as a family member stays home. As far as I can tell neither the potential for long term health effects and loss of quality of life from non-severe infections nor the economic/social effects of any infection are being acknowledged by the advisory panel. And that's a huge problem.
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Sep 18, 2021 14:27
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Greg Abbott openly admitted to getting a booster already, and likely other VIPs got them too. Why is it good enough for them while everyone else has to wait for the green light from the panel with the Great Barrington Declaration signatory at the FDA? Why does the FDA know better than Israel's regulators? I can't find a source for Greg Abbott "openly admitting" to getting a booster. All I can find are two anonymous allegations that he got one, while his office refuses to comment. It's worth noting that he is under 65. https://www.houstonpress.com/news/did-abbott-get-a-covid-booster-shot-before-cdc-approval-11751932 Yes this story is a month old. It's what I could find.
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Sep 18, 2021 16:46
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Victar posted:I can't find a source for Greg Abbott "openly admitting" to getting a booster. All I can find are two anonymous allegations that he got one, while his office refuses to comment. It's worth noting that he is under 65. My bad. Still, there's no reason to doubt the allegations except for their anonymity, and anonymous allegations were treated as smoking gun evidence of Trump's wrongdoing by liberals for 5 years.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:18
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Platystemon posted:“Potential vaccine injuries on the order of one in a million will be ammunition to antivaccine elements. Therefore, we will just have to let a hundred million people take their chances with so-called mild breakthrough cases at a rate greater than one in ten.” from what i saw, the current rate of vaccinated people who are hospitalized who end up needing O2 is 4%. So it's almost assured that even if they do get sick and even if they are one of the very few who needs hospitalization, even then it's almost always very mild.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:from what i saw, the current rate of vaccinated people who are hospitalized who end up needing O2 is 4%. So it's almost assured that even if they do get sick and even if they are one of the very few who needs hospitalization, even then it's almost always very mild. Jesus Christ.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:from what i saw, the current rate of vaccinated people who are hospitalized who end up needing O2 is 4%. So it's almost assured that even if they do get sick and even if they are one of the very few who needs hospitalization, even then it's almost always very mild. Can you post that source? Thanks.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:39
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Herstory Begins Now posted:from what i saw, the current rate of vaccinated people who are hospitalized who end up needing O2 is 4%. So it's almost assured that even if they do get sick and even if they are one of the very few who needs hospitalization, even then it's almost always very mild. What the gently caress is mild hospitalization, what on Earth are you talking about
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Sep 18, 2021 17:41
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What is the hospital doing for you if not providing oxygen? Do you just sit there in case you need oxygen?
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Sep 18, 2021 17:42
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Why would you even be admitted to the hospital if you didn’t need oxygen? A bad fever?
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Sep 18, 2021 17:45
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If it’s the hospital rejecting 96% of vaxxed people cause they’re not sick enough to admit, then that makes sense. Because the hospital is full of a bunch of loving chud morons who have been licking doorknobs to prove covid doesn’t exist
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Sep 18, 2021 17:48
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There was a study on the topic of reasons for hospitalization pre and post vaccination.  quote:Question: How well do COVID-19 hospitalization metrics correlate with severity of disease?
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Sep 18, 2021 17:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:from what i saw, the current rate of vaccinated people who are hospitalized who end up needing O2 is 4%. So it's almost assured that even if they do get sick and even if they are one of the very few who needs hospitalization, even then it's almost always very mild.  Well in my state, in a county with one of the highest vaccination rates in the country, 25% of covid deaths look to be vaccinated people. The vaccine is important and everyone needs to get it, but I'd love to see what source you're going by because it's not looking especially rosy to me. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what the page I'm reading says; https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx Of course that's deaths, but even then, it says 17% of hospitalizations are fully vaccinated. I'm sure they're being hospitalized for less severe issues than unvaccinated folks but it's serious enough to be hospitalized.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:55
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Mischievous Mink posted:
Is there an age breakdown on the deaths/hospitalizations for breakthroughs? Similar data up here noted a number of cases but they were heavily concentrated in older demographics (with zero deaths under 50 and only two under 60). Basically supporting urgency on a booster for seniors but less so for younger folks.
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Sep 18, 2021 18:06
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nexous posted:What is the hospital doing for you if not providing oxygen? Do you just sit there in case you need oxygen? Hydration, IV medication, observation and treatment for high fever. Even just like flu or something people end up hospitalized without needing oxygen. Neither disease always fucks you up primarily in a respiratory way. I have no idea how it breaks down with covid other than the link just posted, but that part isn't strange on its own.
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Sep 18, 2021 18:18
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Is there an age breakdown on the deaths/hospitalizations for breakthroughs? CDC has a number of breakdowns of breakthrough infection distributions through the MMWR site I posted earlier.
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Sep 18, 2021 18:19
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Is there an age breakdown on the deaths/hospitalizations for breakthroughs? The other important aspect is that, yes, in places with a high rate of vaccination, you would expect quite a few of the severely ill to be vaccinated. If you're pushing 80% vaccination or higher, that's overwhelmingly most people in that place. Looking at the data, 80% of people are vaccinated in King County. This means, using that same data, 75% of deaths are occurring in 1/5 of the population. That's incredibly, incredibly significant. The sad truth is that the vaccine is not perfect, and more must be done to control case numbers, because there are those for whom the vaccine does not offer sufficient protection, but the vaccine is still very, very good.
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Sep 18, 2021 18:19
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nexous posted:What is the hospital doing for you if not providing oxygen? Do you just sit there in case you need oxygen? basically admit you for observation to make sure you don't get worse, as appears to be by far the most common case with vaccinated hospitalizations
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Sep 18, 2021 18:21
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Mischievous Mink posted:
Deaths would still be common because the vast majority of people at extremely high risk of dying from covid are vaccinated. Which loops back around to why giving 3rd shots to people over 65 or otherwise not getting full protection from 2 shots is very much a good thing and is currently being done. MooselanderII posted:Can you post that source? Thanks. A review of nationwide hospitalization data from the VA here's discussion of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgNMnaO52nk&t=331s Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 18:25
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PT6A posted:Looking at the data, 80% of people are vaccinated in King County. Once again children are considered nonpersons. It does make some sense to separate the demographics by age here, but at least be explicit about it. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 19:17
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Platystemon posted:Children confirmed as nonpersons. You know, could you maybe be 20% less a prick because I forgot to check one single option on a government website? Okay, it's 70%. The point still stands: the vaccine is very, very effective even if some of the vaccinated are ending up in hospital, and as I said before, we still need to control case growth via NPIs due to those who cannot be vaccinated and those who do not have a strong response to the vaccine. Why is everyone constantly at each others' throats here, ready to take any tiny mistake as the worst possible thing it could ever mean? Y'all need to touch grass.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:20
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PT6A posted:You know, could you maybe be 20% less a prick because I forgot to check one single option on a government website? It's D&D. The point is to get bent out of shape and snipe at each other instead of learn! In all seriousness though, I think the frustration surrounding the kids thing has more to do with chuds/brunch covidians running with the bigger number and using that to justify their lovely behaviour, so it's a pretty big sore spot for many- especially parents. That's all
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Sep 18, 2021 19:26
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I think the frustration around the kids should be focused on the fact that the school system is doing sweet gently caress all to protect them, and failing to recognize that COVID is airborne and deal with the implications of that. Or on vaccines not being available. Or on the consistent denial that COVID is an issue in kids at all. Not whether they are included in a percentage of people vaccinated. There is more than enough to be pissed off about without jumping to saying to another poster "oh so you don't think children are people???"
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Sep 18, 2021 19:29
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Victar posted:I can't find a source for Greg Abbott "openly admitting" to getting a booster. All I can find are two anonymous allegations that he got one, while his office refuses to comment. It's worth noting that he is under 65. this is the _first_ google hit for "abbot got booster dose" https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/texas-gov-greg-abbott-tests-positive-covid-n1277021 quote:Texas Gov. Greg Abbott tests positive for Covid after banning mask, vaccine mandates
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Sep 18, 2021 19:32
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I apologize because I recall that you are Canadian. I don’t know that there is a single American county that breaks eighty percent vaccination. I found Martin County, NC on the NYT map, but other sources say its well below the NYT’s figure. When Americans make statements like that, they know what they’re doing (including the government of King County), but a Canadian may not realize that American institutions are continually massaging the statistics and ignoring children at every turn.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:35
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Which loops back around to why giving 3rd shots to people over 65 or otherwise not getting full protection from 2 shots is very much a good thing and is currently being done. False, currently booster doses are _not_ approved or able to be given to 65 year olds. What happened yesterday was an advisory panel vote, the FDA and then CDC and Whitehouse have to approve the booster plan. They may or may not use the advisory panel information in their decision. But right now if you are 65+ and healthy you cannot get a booster and you are very at risk of waning immunity causing a serious infection. The data for the need to give boosters has been available for months now and the Biden whitehouse has dragged its feet this long and even longer to approve boosters for them.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:36
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I'm confused, haven't the elderly and immunocompromised been getting boosters for weeks now?
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Sep 18, 2021 19:39
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Tarezax posted:I'm confused, haven't the elderly and immunocompromised been getting boosters for weeks now? Only people with a very narrow list of immonocompromised conditions can get a booster. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/immuno.html#anchor_1630089738910 A healthy 65 year old without any condition on that list cannot qualify and get a booster as of this moment.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:41
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PT6A posted:I think the frustration around the kids should be focused on the fact that the school system is doing sweet gently caress all to protect them, and failing to recognize that COVID is airborne and deal with the implications of that. Or on vaccines not being available. Or on the consistent denial that COVID is an issue in kids at all. Not whether they are included in a percentage of people vaccinated. There is more than enough to be pissed off about without jumping to saying to another poster "oh so you don't think children are people???" Parents are getting battered from all sides, it really seems like nobody in power gives the slightest gently caress about it. As a parent, if I had to wager why people jump to that kind of a response, it's because most people we talk to don't even think about kids and proceed to gently caress us over constantly because of the X% of eligible number getting bandied about. People then make the mistake of thinking that number includes kids when it doesn't... aaand yeah. Lots of heated arguments over it. Again, not taking sides or dumping on anyone here, just that it's a really raw sore spot for a lot of people! It's a totally understandable and common thing to step into as you saw, so sorry about all that and have a good weekend
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Sep 18, 2021 19:41
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'or other drugs that may suppress your immune response' might open a door depending on your medication's side effects.
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Sep 18, 2021 19:43
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Platystemon posted:I apologize because I recall that you are Canadian. Yeah, they often don't here in BC because while the vax rates are high, the communication and reporting from DBH/BCCDC is abysmal. Almost like it's intentionally hard to understand! Most people actually do think the "% of eligible" means "% of total"
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Sep 18, 2021 19:48
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Platystemon posted:I apologize because I recall that you are Canadian. Oh we've definitely been doing that in Alberta. It's horrifying, for a lot of reasons. We've also tied re-opening province-wide to overall vaccination rates, meaning that some places are getting absolutely rocked by COVID (health areas where 2% of the population has an active infection, for example) because they have no protection and no resources. Here, too, children have been repeatedly ignored -- both in terms of the risk that COVID poses to them, and the role they play in community transmission. This problem definitely crosses borders, but the point of my post is not that it's safe to re-open with NPIs (it's not) or that high rates of community vaccination protects children at this point (it doesn't). It's to say that, in areas with high rates of vaccination (whether you measure that only with those eligible, or the total population), the vaccine provides quite good protection on a personal level despite a seemingly large percentage of those with severe outcomes* being vaccinated. It's basically what we would expect to see regardless of how you measure that percentage because, statistically**, children under 12 are not being hospitalized at a significant rate relative to all other age groups. * Yes, there are severe outcomes like long COVID that aren't reflected in hospitalized/ICU/death numbers. I'm talking just about those states for now because that's the data we have. ** Yes, this doesn't change the fact that it's still reckless to re-open too early without protecting children, as "it's statistically rare" doesn't mean a goddamn thing when it's your child who draws the short straw. EDIT: I think there's also a lingering hangover from the idea that was promulgated early on that a vaccination rate of 70% would be enough for herd immunity. Turns out: no! That was wrong, and fairly stupid. The real question I wanted to answer -- and it was one that made me nervous for a long time too -- was "can it both be true that 70% of people/80% of eligible people are vaccinated, AND the vaccine is effective, AND 25% of the people in hospital are vaccinated". The answer is: yes, that is possible, because (as the edge case example) if you have 100% vaccination, and the vaccine is 88% effective, you'll still have some cases hospitalized, and 100% of them will be vaccinated. This goes to make the point that we must continue NPIs in addition to encouraging vaccination for community protection, and that it must be a priority to vaccinate children ASAP. We're on the same side. PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 19:49
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Mischievous Mink posted:
Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Is there an age breakdown on the deaths/hospitalizations for breakthroughs? Yeah this pattern is what prompted Israel to roll out boosters to 60+ people in July. They noticed that more than 60% of hospitalizations were of vaccinated (almost entirely elderly) people and found waning immunity. I do genuinely hope boosters/additional shots get to the elderly ASAP. I'm not much for doom and gloom but based on Israel's experience we might end up with a wave of hospitalizations of the vaccinated elderly in a few months. IIRC vaccine uptake among the elderly was pretty quick here in the US? Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 20:05
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Informal thread rule, be especially nice to parents right now as most parents in the US particularly are having to choose between a lot of mostly lovely options right now. Went out and stocked up on N95s because my wife's work is barreling right ahead with a bigostly unvaxxed super spreader conference and we can't afford her to not attend, nor can we afford to properly isolate for two weeks after, so there will be a lot of upstairs/downstairs action and a lot of mask wearing in our own home. We are exceptionally lucky that her exposure at the conference is very low, but she is nervous because she got J and J and can't help herself from reading stories about Delta. This is the kind of lovely thing that capitalism forces us all to do during normal times anyway, and now with a nasty deadly pandemic on top of it. If you are an individual citizen there's not a whole lot you can do about other than do the best you can with your means, and that's what we're doing. E: please try to keep up on the pet taxes. A lot of times I check in from my phone and it's a pain in the rear end for me to spot it for someone. Feel free to post a tax if you don't see one at the top of the page. Don't get spammy with pet pics or anything but once a page at least is good bipartisan policy. e2: yeah sure a guy that's had to navigate t1d over the last 20 years including pre-ACA preexisting conditions hellscape is unaware of our failing empire. One of the things that most concerns me about this pandemic is watching our healthcare system buckle and collapse as though a couple of 747s slammed into it. 
Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 20:08
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mod sassinator posted:False, currently booster doses are _not_ approved or able to be given to 65 year olds. What happened yesterday was an advisory panel vote, the FDA and then CDC and Whitehouse have to approve the booster plan. They may or may not use the advisory panel information in their decision. But right now if you are 65+ and healthy you cannot get a booster and you are very at risk of waning immunity causing a serious infection. The data for the need to give boosters has been available for months now and the Biden whitehouse has dragged its feet this long and even longer to approve boosters for them. i said 3rd shots, not boosters. they're not the same thing and I even stated the difference in the post you quoted
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Sep 18, 2021 20:09
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Herstory Begins Now posted:i said 3rd shots, not boosters. they're not the same thing and I even stated the difference in the post you quoted Neither third shots or boosters are currently allowed for any healthy person of any age.
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Sep 18, 2021 20:19
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mod sassinator posted:Neither third shots or boosters are currently allowed for any healthy person of any age. I feel like we're in a weird situation where the Israeli data is relentlessly publicized and it's easy to get a third dose but the official approval is withheld for "the vaccines are perfect" messaging reasons
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Sep 18, 2021 20:44
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Update: my friend that I convinced to get vaccinated followed through. She just sent me this I have to admit I half expected her to just say that to get me to go away. She has her follow up on Oct 9
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Sep 18, 2021 21:43
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HonorableTB posted:Update: my friend that I convinced to get vaccinated followed through. She just sent me this Fantastic, especially in times like this it's so gratifying to see stuff like this, you've done good work
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Sep 18, 2021 22:23
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