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Zeron posted:This is interesting. I guess that means the global population of slaves will be pretty static and generally decreasing. Prevents all the fantasies people on the paradox forums are having about enslaving their favorite undesirables at least. I guess you could theoretically just do debt slavery and manipulate laws/discrimination to get certain people into slavery and then change to a harsher slavery law. Did they mention how the creation and importation of slaves interacted with discrimination laws? I'm no expert on the subject, but to my knowledge by 1837 racism was so culturally embedded in the practice of slavery in the Americas that it'd be weird if they just started importing white debt slaves as soon as they became available on the market, which unless I've misunderstood something would happen in-game if say, France passed the debt slavery law.
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Sep 17, 2021 14:01
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19th century anglo scientists were talking about how Irish and Spanish were half-negroid or whatever so it's not impossible to imagine recognizing European slaves, but obviously Boston would go up in flames as a result.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:05
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There were some anti-capitalist southern intellectuals whose anti-capitalism was born out of a reactionary tendency rather than a socialist one. They argued that slavery was more humane than capitalism because it guaranteed food and shelter to slaves where as capitalism had no such guarantee for wage laborers. It wasnt especially popular because it undercut a lot of other southern arguments about how they would eventually transition out of slavery when they were good and ready but its not hard to imagine an ascendant confederacy coming around on it and taking that logic to its conclusion and enslaving poor whites under the guise of welfare.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:11
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i love the thought of southerners grappling with the morality of slavery and being like "it's the RACISM that's the problem, egalitarian slavery is the answer" tho tbf, that would draw them even closer to their roman republic roots
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Sep 17, 2021 15:17
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lachek posted:No you are right! Debt Slavery can enslave anyone regardless of Discrimination status. Discrimination matters for the importation of Slaves under Slave Trade, which tends to lead to countries with Slave Trade having large quantities of Slaves that are also Discriminated. So based on this if -you- are a debt slaver then you'll enslave everyone regardless of discrimination, but if you have Slave Trade you'll import slaves that you discriminate against.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:36
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i love the thought of southerners grappling with the morality of slavery and being like "it's the RACISM that's the problem, egalitarian slavery is the answer" Many of the apologetics for slavery in this period were very much that any society that relied on free laborers would inevitably end up as a tyranny of mob rule, while a servile class was the only way to preserve Liberty. Slave economics as a way to preserve a reactionary regime well past the liberal period strikes me as good representation of its game-utility I think.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:44
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check out george fitzhugh
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Sep 17, 2021 15:58
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What about wage slavery? What law will liberate the pops from that? 
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Sep 17, 2021 16:01
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Davincie posted:check out george fitzhugh Thats who I was thinking of I just couldn't remember the name
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Sep 17, 2021 21:58
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Vagabong posted:Did they mention how the creation and importation of slaves interacted with discrimination laws? I'm no expert on the subject, but to my knowledge by 1837 racism was so culturally embedded in the practice of slavery in the Americas that it'd be weird if they just started importing white debt slaves as soon as they became available on the market, which unless I've misunderstood something would happen in-game if say, France passed the debt slavery law. For the US specifically they simply don't import slaves at all; their law allows slavery in slave states, and for slave populations to grow on their own, but no international slave trading.
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Sep 17, 2021 22:42
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I kinda wanna know more about how the slave trade is gonna be depicted in centralized African kingdoms that actively exported slaves. Is there going to be a slave raider job done by soldier pops that actively captures pops in neighboring regions you dont control and converts them into slaves to be shipped?
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Sep 19, 2021 06:47
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Pharohman777 posted:I kinda wanna know more about how the slave trade is gonna be depicted in centralized African kingdoms that actively exported slaves. I read on the forums that socities with debt slavery export some of their slaves to those who have the slave trade running, it's not really that complex a system.
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Sep 19, 2021 09:34
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It shouldn't be, given the start date the international slave trade is a shadow of what it once was with the british interdiction on it.
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Sep 19, 2021 10:05
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Nothingtoseehere posted:It shouldn't be, given the start date the international slave trade is a shadow of what it once was with the british interdiction on it. The slave trade didn't really start dipping until a decade or two into the game. In 1836 the amount of people being shipped across the atlantic was still near peak levels I believe.
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Sep 19, 2021 10:23
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Wiz posted:The slave trade didn't really start dipping until a decade or two into the game. In 1836 the amount of people being shipped across the atlantic was still near peak levels I believe. (Looking it up, 2 out of the total 12 million enslaved people sent across the Atlantic were sent off during the period covered by Victoria, around 850k of them for Brazil.)
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Sep 19, 2021 11:18
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AnEdgelord posted:There were some anti-capitalist southern intellectuals whose anti-capitalism was born out of a reactionary tendency rather than a socialist one. They argued that slavery was more humane than capitalism because it guaranteed food and shelter to slaves where as capitalism had no such guarantee for wage laborers. It wasnt especially popular because it undercut a lot of other southern arguments about how they would eventually transition out of slavery when they were good and ready but its not hard to imagine an ascendant confederacy coming around on it and taking that logic to its conclusion and enslaving poor whites under the guise of welfare. This argument against wage labour goes all the way back to Roman times and it's not wrong. It also does not justify slavery, obviously.
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Sep 19, 2021 18:05
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The difference between the Vic slave trade and earlier is that even in the New World slave states, it was illegal to import slaves. So it was all human smuggling, despite happening right up to the US civil war and prolly for another 20 years to Brazil. IDK how to represent that exactly. The East Africa to Middle East slave trade continued even longer, and I don't think the brits/germans/portuguese even cared to stop it. Saudi and the other arabian states abolished slavery (officially) in the mid 20th century. They also kept getting slaves from Asia and even the Caucasus, which again suggests the euros didn't care to stop the trade.
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Sep 19, 2021 18:46
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Yeah it's tricky because the reality is that slavery still exists in some places today even though everyone has, on paper, abolished it. It's hard to model that sort of thing in a game because you want to have a sense that passing laws actually has an effect, and you can imagine there being people out there abolishing slavery and then being confused why they still have slave pops.
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Sep 19, 2021 19:05
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btw defeated confederate planters immigrated to Brazil because it had slavery still, which brought capital and incentives for its continuation here we abolished it in 1888 lmao
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Sep 19, 2021 19:23
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah it's tricky because the reality is that slavery still exists in some places today even though everyone has, on paper, abolished it. It's hard to model that sort of thing in a game because you want to have a sense that passing laws actually has an effect, and you can imagine there being people out there abolishing slavery and then being confused why they still have slave pops.
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Sep 19, 2021 19:44
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Panzeh posted:I read on the forums that socities with debt slavery export some of their slaves to those who have the slave trade running, it's not really that complex a system. I was talking about a different sort of slavery, the sort that fueled the triangle trade. Basically in west africa before Europeans started colonizing america; african tribes, kindgoms, etc could make some cash by selling their prisoners of war, criminals, and anyone able-bodied they kidnapped while raiding their enemies. This was normal and had been going on for thousands of years, but it wasn't a major economic pillar. Slave raiding like this happened all across Europe too in the dark/middle ages, but the catholic church really didn't like Christians enslaving Christians, and other forms of forced labor emerged over time due to the sheer power the church held. See stuff like the dublin slave markets or the viking slave trade for more info. The sheer demand for slaves that occurred when the colonies started running out of native Indians to enslave ended up warping the economy of west africa and fueled several large kingdoms/empires in west Africa that went to war specifically to get slaves from their enemies to trade for European goods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa quote:The Atlantic slave trade peaked in the late 18th century, when the largest number of people were bought or captured from West Africa and taken to the Americas.[239] The increase of demand for slaves due to the expansion of European colonial powers to the New World made the slave trade much more lucrative to the West African powers, leading to the establishment of a number of actual West African empires thriving on slave trade.[240] These included the Bono State, Oyo empire (Yoruba), Kong Empire, Imamate of Futa Jallon, Imamate of Futa Toro, Kingdom of Koya, Kingdom of Khasso, Kingdom of Kaabu, Fante Confederacy, Ashanti Confederacy, and the kingdom of Dahomey.[241] These kingdoms relied on a militaristic culture of constant warfare to generate the great numbers of human captives required for trade with the Europeans. This is why I was asking about how gaining slaves would be handled on the African end. There were kingdoms so distorted by the profits from enlaving their enemies that they went to war specifically because of it. Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 21:12
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah it's tricky because the reality is that slavery still exists in some places today even though everyone has, on paper, abolished it. It's hard to model that sort of thing in a game because you want to have a sense that passing laws actually has an effect, and you can imagine there being people out there abolishing slavery and then being confused why they still have slave pops. The United States never abolished slavery (the 13th amendment carves out exceptions to its prohibition, which means that slavery was reduced but not abolished) In fact, Debt Slavery is probably a pretty accurate law to have in effect to this day, reflecting the use of (overwhelmingly poor minority) prisoners as slave labor
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Sep 20, 2021 16:18
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Kaza42 posted:The United States never abolished slavery (the 13th amendment carves out exceptions to its prohibition, which means that slavery was reduced but not abolished) Anyone who read this post and felt confusion or consternation should start by searching up Convict Leasing
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Sep 20, 2021 16:37
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Is it not common knowledge the US still has prison slave labour?
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Sep 20, 2021 17:06
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Pharohman777 posted:I was talking about a different sort of slavery, the sort that fueled the triangle trade. And by European goods, it often means European weapons, which leads to a cruel cycle where a kingdom needs profits from the slave trade to avoid being on the wrong end of a war over slaves.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:18
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This is gonna be the most CSPAM game in Paradox history. I love it.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:35
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DrSunshine posted:This is gonna be the most CSPAM game in Paradox history. I love it. Oh! So it'll be *insert bon mot here* ?
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Sep 20, 2021 20:55
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In true Vicky fashion, wiz's attempts to implement leftist economic principles will lead to Gilded Age capitalism being the optimal gameplay style.
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Sep 20, 2021 21:19
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Still love that the optimal factory set up in Vicky 1 was like the inverse of the Gilded Age, ten thousand capitalists for every assembly line worker in the clipper factory.
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Sep 20, 2021 21:31
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DrSunshine posted:This is gonna be the most CSPAM game in Paradox history. I love it. the true test imo is if the victoria 3 mods will be able to compete with the poo poo we've seen from hoi4 mods
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Sep 20, 2021 21:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:In true Vicky fashion, wiz's attempts to implement leftist economic principles will lead to Gilded Age capitalism being the optimal gameplay style. game got it hedged by having a controlled economy as its underlying system so on that front, yeah, capis being selfless super administrators can happen fortunately the interest system should counterweight them by having them defend stupid policies that act as structural handicaps
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Sep 20, 2021 22:08
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Takanago posted:the true test imo is if the victoria 3 mods will be able to compete with the poo poo we've seen from hoi4 mods Once Anbennar V3 is out there won't be any reason to play any other game again
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Sep 20, 2021 22:28
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golden bubble posted:And by European goods, it often means European weapons, which leads to a cruel cycle where a kingdom needs profits from the slave trade to avoid being on the wrong end of a war over slaves. Well that, plus lots of cloth, metal and booze. And apparently once abolishing the slave trade became a thing for the imperial powers, the major slaveholders in africa switched to running plantations with slaves instead of shipping them overseas. Theres a ton of demographic effects as well, with male and female slaves desired in different places causing demographic imbalances in regions. I just have so many questions that were completely unanswered by that dev diary. Although you probably need to do a dedicated west africa dlc to really nail all the economic contortions and unique circumstances west African kingdoms found itself in during the Victorian period. quote:When European powers began to stop the Atlantic slave trade, this caused a further change in that large holders of slaves in Africa began to exploit enslaved people on plantations and other agricultural products.[245]
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Sep 20, 2021 23:20
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I mean the reason they weren’t answered is they probably aren’t going to be modeled.
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Sep 20, 2021 23:25
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https://twitter.com/SirVogelius/status/1440329982908174336?s=19
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Sep 21, 2021 16:20
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Hm, wonder why it reduces infrastructure to have useful trees in your state.
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Sep 22, 2021 10:10
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Gort posted:Hm, wonder why it reduces infrastructure to have useful trees in your state. I'd assume it's because the forests get in the way of all the buildings and railroads? The terrain types might be being handled like they work in some of the other paradox games, where all of the terrains outside of grasslands/farmlands have a building/development/etc malus attached to them. Have they mentioned if terrains are going to be changeable in V3? It's definitely an era where there's enough deforestation and poldering going on to justify changing terrain types in provinces over the course of a campaign.
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Sep 22, 2021 10:30
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This is a minor thing but I wonder if they will change "building" to "industry" before release. They've said in dev diaries stuff like "obviously it's not actually a building, it's a whole industry". It would help avoid things like railways being "buildings" and also just sound cooler imo
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Sep 22, 2021 10:53
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fuf posted:This is a minor thing but I wonder if they will change "building" to "industry" before release. They've said in dev diaries stuff like "obviously it's not actually a building, it's a whole industry". It doesn't make any sense for quite a few buildings, like barracks or canals, to be called an industry.
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Sep 22, 2021 11:02
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You wouldn't call a railroad or a canal a "building" either, though. You build them, but they're not buildings, because English. Maybe "construction" or "improvement" would be a better catch-all term for everything including factories, barracks, canals, dockyards and railroads.
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Sep 22, 2021 11:28
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