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SRQ posted:my dad brought up blockchain as a good way to have digital elections be secure and free and i said that had problems and he got pissy.
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Sep 19, 2021 13:22
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Blockchain is usually signalling you're talking about Merkel trees because there's no reason to distribute something that can be managed by a trusted authority. I can see getting tempted at a surface level by something a central authority can issue a one time use encryption personal key to manage identity with a Merkel tree constructing the results to make sure things aren't left out. But also these fix things that aren't the hard part about a national voting infrastructure. E. Like if your problem is scary Chinese botnets you've hosed up your basic digital architecture in a way Blockchain doesn't fix. zedprime fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 14:03
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SRQ posted:my dad brought up blockchain as a good way to have digital elections be secure and free and i said that had problems and he got pissy. voting should be an easy to understand process. ideally even one a child can understand. using a block chain would mean the majority of people would have no idea what happens to their vote other than it goes into a computer. democracy needs trust in the electoral system to function.
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Sep 19, 2021 15:49
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You also don't need to automate something that happens every 2/4 years. You'll never work the bugs out because by the time you've tested it 10 times it's obsolete. Paper is the way to go. Look at the Arizona recount. Even with a company trying as hard as they could to overturn the election with a fraudulent recount they only managed to find like 150 ballots to challenge out of millions.
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Sep 19, 2021 16:04
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Voting fundamentally needs all the human and process resiliency you can put together because it needs to be something you can do and audit under systemic duress like war and natural disasters. There's ways for technology to help this (tabulators and communication of a result) and ways for technology to hurt this (voting as a digital system). There's also social concerns on the enfranchisement of widely available polling places. Most voting equipment is scalable and pretty foolproof and the voting stations can be there if you want them. Shame there's a party who specifically wants to disenfranchise populations but well that only becomes easier when voting equipment is digital and expensive. And auditability, stinch posted:voting should be an easy to understand process. ideally even one a child can understand. We lose a lot of that going to digital systems. We have not solved the subject matter expert audit problem, let alone letting someone of indistinctly technical background coming in to weigh in on it. Our ways of evaluating and auditing digital systems are probability based: we test and review tests and figure the vote's probably right because it was right in 100% of test cases, but you never test reality. Just something you hope is probably near reality. The inner workings are not obvious like even the more complicated voting machines and tabulators. A lot of this applies to currency as well while we're in the Bitcoin thread. It can lean more digital since it's a continuous thing and we have chances to fix the digital issues but there's still a lot of leaning on proven fair and resilient processes using technology as an enablement instead of as it's basic structure.
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Sep 19, 2021 16:29
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Clearly the best application for the blockchain is for birth certificates and maybe keeping track of prisoners trading each other mackerals
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Sep 19, 2021 16:35
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zedprime posted:The average person doesn't know how the electromechanical voter marks the ballot or where the ballot goes or how the tabulator works or even where there vote goes physically next. The best systems let you look at your paper ballot and review that yeah, it's marked your choices. This must differ from state to state, because I have no idea what you are talking about. I vote with a pen and paper, and its later scanned in via an optical reader of some sort. More or less the same technology that people use to take multiple choice tests (at least, used to when I was in school).
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Sep 19, 2021 16:43
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drk posted:This must differ from state to state, because I have no idea what you are talking about. I vote with a pen and paper, and its later scanned in via an optical reader of some sort. More or less the same technology that people use to take multiple choice tests (at least, used to when I was in school). All physical ballot results are fundamentally readable for auditing but I don't count it as a success if you need reading glasses or a magnifying glass to see what you did if you're far sighted. But also a few states have experimented with fully digital ballots without paper record and that's a small nightmare of mine. https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state
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Sep 19, 2021 17:08
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EorayMel posted:Clearly the best application for the blockchain is for birth Fixed it for you.
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Sep 19, 2021 17:43
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drk posted:This must differ from state to state, because I have no idea what you are talking about. I vote with a pen and paper, and its later scanned in via an optical reader of some sort. More or less the same technology that people use to take multiple choice tests (at least, used to when I was in school). It can literally vary county to county. Where I live we have digital machines with touchscreens that let you enter your vote. Once you confirm everything and hit the final VOTE button, you get a printout of your votes, so you can tell if anything changed. This then gets fed into a scanner and they keep the paper copies secure for later verification. There are poll workers available to help people with questions or disabilities. And now you get a neat little "I VOTED" stylus along with your sticker!
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Sep 19, 2021 20:13
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DrowningInDreams posted:Also I bought an urbit planet because it reminded me of Shadowland BBS or Jackpoint from Shadowrun, which at the time I thought was coming true due to schizophrenia. 
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Sep 19, 2021 20:15
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vortmax posted:It can literally vary county to county. Where I live we have digital machines with touchscreens that let you enter your vote. Once you confirm everything and hit the final VOTE button, you get a printout of your votes, so you can tell if anything changed. This then gets fed into a scanner and they keep the paper copies secure for later verification. There are poll workers available to help people with questions or disabilities. And now you get a neat little "I VOTED" stylus along with your sticker! I wonder what the perceived advantage is to such a convoluted method for putting ink on paper. I would think way more people would have issue with the touchscreen than... a pen, but maybe not. The area I live in is pretty tech-y, and digital voting like that was only here briefly before we switched back to paper. Maybe a coincidence, but probably not.
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Sep 19, 2021 22:23
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Dear law-goons, was this reviewed by a competent lawyer? via https://beta.yearn.finance/disclaimer
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Sep 19, 2021 23:00
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drk posted:Dear law-goons, was this reviewed by a competent lawyer? I am fairly sure there is no Iron Bank because GRR Martin will never write a new book
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Sep 19, 2021 23:03
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Our ballots look like this: It was kind of hard to find an image for one on a quick search, but it is pretty drat simple. Use a blue or black pen to fill in the circle, put it in the envelope and drop it off at a ballot return site or mail it back in (I think they are making them free to mail, but it used to always require a stamp if mailed).
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Sep 19, 2021 23:11
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drk posted:I wonder what the perceived advantage is to such a convoluted method for putting ink on paper. I would think way more people would have issue with the touchscreen than... a pen, but maybe not. What happens if someone doesn't fill in the bubble all the way? What if they only fill in half the bubble? Does that count as a vote? What if they started to fill in one bubble, then realized they were doing the wrong one and stopped to fill in another one instead? And so on. There are a lot of petty edge cases with pen-and-paper ballots that can lead to a panel of people having to literally have a debate about whether or not your vote should be counted, and if so, who it should be counted for. A digitally-filled paper ballot removes a lot of the potential ambiguity there, though of course it has its own issues.
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Sep 19, 2021 23:30
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Mumpy Puffinz posted:I am fairly sure there is no Iron Bank because GRR Martin will never write a new book I wish it were a joke, but it appears to be the actual name of their lending program: https://beta.yearn.finance/#/ironbank
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Sep 19, 2021 23:33
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drk posted:I wish it were a joke, but it appears to be the actual name of their lending program: https://beta.yearn.finance/#/ironbank I hate you for telling me this
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Sep 19, 2021 23:34
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Our ballots look like this:
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Sep 19, 2021 23:38
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Main Paineframe posted:What happens if someone doesn't fill in the bubble all the way? What if they only fill in half the bubble? Does that count as a vote? What if they started to fill in one bubble, then realized they were doing the wrong one and stopped to fill in another one instead? And so on. I don't know for sure, but Oregon has done it this way for years and years now and it hasn't been a problem. By memory there are instructions to cross out a misvote which are pretty clear, and a partially filled oval is generally going to indicate intent clearly enough. Any edge cases can get kicked up for review. Vote by mail should be the standard nationwide, but the GOP is afraid of people voting so it remains something strenuously debated about even though it has been running just fine in Oregon for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote-by-mail_in_Oregon
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Sep 19, 2021 23:41
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Main Paineframe posted:What happens if someone doesn't fill in the bubble all the way? What if they only fill in half the bubble? Does that count as a vote? What if they started to fill in one bubble, then realized they were doing the wrong one and stopped to fill in another one instead? And so on. That's a fair point and I agree - its a lot easier to get a new ballot and start over when its all digital. If I were to put on my tinfoil hat, the biggest issue with these sort of "I'll whisper my choice to the ballot marking automaton" systems is that you have to trust it to actually mark your ballot as you intended. A ballot you mark yourself is quite a bit easier to understand. (to be clear, I dont have any reason to believe electronic vote systems are altering the vote, but apparently a lot of people dont trust them)
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Sep 19, 2021 23:43
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drk posted:I wish it were a joke, but it appears to be the actual name of their lending program: https://beta.yearn.finance/#/ironbank Did they get his permission to create a derivative fantasy work?
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Sep 19, 2021 23:48
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Hello Sailor posted:Did they get his permission to create a derivative fantasy work? he owns bitcoin. Imma guess no
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Sep 19, 2021 23:50
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Our ballots look like this:  Canada is peak simple, but it's also just a straight forward per-riding parliamentary election.
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Sep 20, 2021 00:49
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SRQ posted:
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Sep 20, 2021 01:10
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SRQ posted:my dad brought up blockchain as a good way to have digital elections be secure and free and i said that had problems and he got pissy. A chineese botnet wouldn't break consensus because you could make your network ignore anything except for the offical US Election computers. That means your network only trusts certain inputs. Once you have a trusted inputs you have completely defeated the purpose of a blockchain which is supposed to be "how to establish trust when outputs and inputs come from untrusted sources". Making a block chain out of rigged computers would be trivial since they would just put rigged votes on the blockchain.
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Sep 20, 2021 01:30
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I can bank online, I should be able to vote online.
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Sep 20, 2021 02:07
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I don't know for sure, but Oregon has done it this way for years and years now and it hasn't been a problem. By memory there are instructions to cross out a misvote which are pretty clear, and a partially filled oval is generally going to indicate intent clearly enough. Any edge cases can get kicked up for review. I saw a post online that said in some Scottish election, a voter had written "wankers" over every party except the Green party, where he had written "not wankers." That counted as a vote.
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Sep 20, 2021 03:53
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Duck and Cover posted:I can bank online, I should be able to vote online. They’re not comparable.
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Sep 20, 2021 04:19
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tehinternet posted:They’re not comparable. While voting does have unique problems to be addressed, pretending that it's impossible is ridiculous and pretty much boils down to a masturbatory exercise in calling ones vote priceless. As I said before Duck and Cover posted:I can bank online, I should be able to vote online.
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Sep 20, 2021 05:21
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You know what I say about technology? I think for any reason, even if you think you should, or shouldn’t, no matter what anyone says, even though you might think it’s a good idea, or even a bad idea, just don’t ever consider for even a second if you do or don’t
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Sep 20, 2021 05:32
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Duck and Cover posted:I can bank online, I should be able to vote online. There are no problems this solves that can't be better accomplished by vote by mail, which is already a thing. It does, however, introduce a lot of new problems and layers of complexity, which benefits whom, exactly? Online banking is great, and I wouldn't give it up, but it's also something that is a 24/7 task. Voting is a twice a year task, if that, and there is no compelling reason to make that online instead of by mail.
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Sep 20, 2021 06:00
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Duck and Cover posted:While voting does have unique problems to be addressed, pretending that it's impossible is ridiculous and pretty much boils down to a masturbatory exercise in calling ones vote priceless. As I said before Is it impossible? No. Taking you in good faith that you likely don’t deserve given the snark, you’re aiming for easier, more accessible voting —which is a Good Thing. But your bank account doesn’t have a bad actor trying to run fake audits on it and even if your entire account was stolen, who cares? You’ve got protections and legal recourse and you’re late for some bills at worst. When’s the last time you’ve needed a paper trail for a recount of your bank account? When’s the last time a bad actor political party needed a recount of the funds within your account? If the same thing happens with voting, you get a fascist. Your comparison doesn’t track if only because the stakes are so vastly different. And no, that’s not blah blah masturbatory bullshit, that’s an honest admission that getting online voting wrong has consequences a little more severe than your banking.
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Sep 20, 2021 07:16
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The essential (and to a certain extent, competing) goals of an election are anonymity and trust. Online banking only works because your bank is required to be very very sure who you are at all times. The point of paper voting isn't to make a system that's immune to fraud, because no system is. It's to make a system where fraud on a scale that will impact a result is impractical to pull off.
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Sep 20, 2021 08:23
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Duck and Cover posted:I can bank online, I should be able to vote online. this is literally the nucleus of my dads argument. I myself am just in favour of not changing Elections Canada's... anything. There's a paper trail for so much as the _stickers I used to seal the ballot box_ and oh boy you have no idea how much paperwork is involved in getting at the ballots themselves. Literally sign in/out for a piss break, there is not a goddamn thing that isn't tracked precisely and I love that because it also kind of pre-empts an election audit. Go ahead, have fun, we basically audit ourselves on an hourly basis (with regards to the ballots used/remaining balance, we literally do) SRQ fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 09:52
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Hobologist posted:I saw a post online that said in some Scottish election, a voter had written "wankers" over every party except the Green party, where he had written "not wankers." That counted as a vote. And there’s also been official discussion of whether drawing a cock on one single candidate is indicating they’re a, well, cock, or it’s the voter “making their mark”. E: if you want to spoil your ballot, be clear about it. Kerbtree fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 10:02
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The best one was when the definitely-not-neo-Nazis BNP tried to claim that a swastika drawn next to their candidate's name on the ballot counted as a preference for them.
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Sep 20, 2021 10:05
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Number go down. But does it count if all the stocks number go down too?
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Sep 20, 2021 17:05
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tehinternet posted:If the same thing happens with voting, you get a fascist.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:32
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Hobologist posted:Number go down. Doubly so. Since Bitcoin is supposed to be an alternative to traditional money and/or assets, you would expect it to go up, when everything else goes down.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:44
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