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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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enki42 posted:I could definitely support a system that doesn't consider vaccination status one way or another when it comes to allocating resources, but that will still result in a disproportionate amount of resources being applied to unvaccinated cases (simply because they're far more likely to have worse outcomes and require more intensive care). Going beyond that to say that we must specifically have equity between vaccinated cases and unvaccinated cases, even if it results in people who need interventions less getting prioritized goes too far IMO. That is not what I'm suggesting, but I fully support the anti-vax prayer warriors being ensured access to a church and a television to maintain their preferred methods of medical care. Realistically, the ethics here are pretty clear: Doctors have a duty to their patients to provide the best standard of care that they can, and hospitals have a duty to their community to promote public health. While monoclonals may be particularly useful to the unvaccinated, creating medical incentives to not get vaccinated is acting contrary to the social good. Policy needs to built with that in mind, which is why other states and other countries are using an array of risk factors other than vaccination status to guide their triage efforts. Which fur friend deserves to be treated first?: 
Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 18:23
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Professor Beetus posted:I think your point is a good one, although in this case we are talking about chemo for people who deny cancer exists and guzzle carcinogens, and then upon getting cancer, talk about how much they love cancer and that most people get cancer and the liberal media just wants to use cancer fears to install the New World Order. Except being anti-vax clearly isn't actually a pure choice, otherwise we would see a consistent rate of vaccination where the supplies are the same. Instead, we see massive differences in vaccination across space, indicating that it isn't actually a choice and something determined by geographic location and class status.
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Sep 21, 2021 18:26
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Vasukhani posted:Except being anti-vax clearly isn't actually a pure choice, otherwise we would see a consistent rate of vaccination where the supplies are the same. Instead, we see massive differences in vaccination across space, indicating that it isn't actually a choice and something determined by geographic location and class status. If we were space aliens landing from Mars trying to sort out the issue, we'd definitely explore your theories, but for the most part, in the words of Joe Biden, c'mon man. This is predominantly ideological, it's a classic middle class far right ideology, and the antivax population isn't exactly the downtrodden and oppressed.
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Sep 21, 2021 18:32
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poll plane variant posted:If we were space aliens landing from Mars trying to sort out the issue, we'd definitely explore your theories, but for the most part, in the words of Joe Biden, c'mon man. This is predominantly ideological, it's a classic middle class far right ideology, and the antivax population isn't exactly the downtrodden and oppressed. Why does the prominence of certain ideologies differ across space? The fact is humans don't actually make choices. Not free ones anyway. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 18:35
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Vasukhani posted:Except being anti-vax clearly isn't actually a pure choice, otherwise we would see a consistent rate of vaccination where the supplies are the same. Instead, we see massive differences in vaccination across space, indicating that it isn't actually a choice and something determined by geographic location and class status. Is there any news showing that vaccines are actually unavailable to people who want them in Tennessee? I know Fritz was taking about week long waits for vaccines on their reservation but a week wait is still preferable to being in a country with little to no vaccine access. Vasukhani posted:Why does the prominence of certain ideologies differ across space? The fact is humans don't actually make choices. Not free ones anyway. This is too reductive to be a useful lens for interpreting this crisis. There are clearly political forces at work that are maliciously approaching covid vs incompetently, and of course there are wildly different rates of vaccination across self-identified political groups. To say those things just don't matter wrt vaccination rates is incorrect. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 18:42
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Kaal posted:Which fur friend deserves to be treated first?: The Golden Retriever, because it probably has a bleeding splenic mass and/or pericardial effusion and might even have a catheter already in it from the local 1 doc shop but I'll definitely have to check it, it looks bulky. The Setter has a tooth root abscess, it can wait for a bit. The wire haired Dachshund doesn't have a leg issue, it has a spinal disk issue that's manifesting as nerve root signature but as it can get itself sternal and sitting upright, it's not an emergency neuro case. The middle dog is some angsty bitey terrier who probably got their leg stuck in the recliner when the client sat backwards, I'm definitely letting my colleague get that one, they even left their stethoscope on it to claim it. They probably got a thing for angsty old terriers. The cat on the right is an unknown box and might be entirely fine or might be dead in 20 minutes.
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Sep 21, 2021 18:54
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Vasukhani posted:Except being anti-vax clearly isn't actually a pure choice, otherwise we would see a consistent rate of vaccination where the supplies are the same. Please provide support for this outlandish assertion that relies on the idea that literally nothing exists that is not uniformly distributed geographically other than vaccine availability. Which is especially confusing because vaccine availability does seem to be relatively uniformly distributed in the sense that it's freely available everywhere.
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Sep 21, 2021 18:55
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HelloSailorSign posted:
This is what Schrodinger failed to grasp, the box was totally unnecessary
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Sep 21, 2021 18:57
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Jarmak posted:Please provide support for this outlandish assertion that relies on the idea that literally nothing exists that is not uniformly distributed geographically other than vaccine availability. Do I really need to provide a source for this? Do you also think religion is a choice independent from where someone was born? It's loving wild that all these Egyptians choose to be Sunni muslims and all these people in Alabama choose to be southern baptists! Only malignant anti-science ideas about free will suppose such nonsense. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 19:05
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HelloSailorSign posted:The Golden Retriever, because it probably has a bleeding splenic mass and/or pericardial effusion and might even have a catheter already in it from the local 1 doc shop but I'll definitely have to check it, it looks bulky. 
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Sep 21, 2021 19:13
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Kaal posted:Society routines triages patients based on best outcomes and past behavior, for example prioritizing young and healthy non-smokers for lung transplants. In terms of monoclonals, it's clear that they are mostly effective on patients that are recently diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 and are non-symptomatic. Those are the people who should be prioritized for the medicine. Denying transplants isn't a question of allocating scarce resources. Both donors and recipients are routinely denied transplants in living donor scenarios where the organ isn't going to go anywhere else. It's more about hitting a point where the benefit from doing the transplant doesn't outweigh the risks if the transplant is not likely to be a long-term success.
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Sep 21, 2021 19:20
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Kaal posted:Realistically, the ethics here are pretty clear: Doctors have a duty to their patients to provide the best standard of care that they can, and hospitals have a duty to their community to promote public health. While monoclonals may be particularly useful to the unvaccinated, creating medical incentives to not get vaccinated is acting contrary to the social good. Policy needs to built with that in mind, which is why other states and other countries are using an array of risk factors other than vaccination status to guide their triage efforts. I think the standard for doctors has always been to treat individual patients as effectively as they can, and not to consider broader societal implications. Saying "I should let this patient die because if I treat them that might tell people that it's OK to be unvaccinated" doesn't sound like any doctor I've heard, either in relation to COVID or anything else. Edit: to be fair, you're distinguishing between individual doctors and hospitals, but I still think that hospitals haven't traditionally been considered to have a duty to overall public health, particularly when it comes to denying individual patients care, and I'm not sure they should. I don't really know how to reconcile our viewpoints though, I'll admit my argument is a moral one, but I do think every patient should be treated regardless of the decisions that led them into the hospital. enki42 fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 19:27
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Vasukhani posted:Do I really need to provide a source for this? Do you also think religion is a choice independent from where someone was born? It's loving wild that all these Egyptians choose to be Sunni muslims and all these people in Alabama choose to be southern baptists! Only malignant anti-science ideas about free will suppose such nonsense. I'm going to say you need to provide a coherent argument before we even get to the sourcing issue. Because right now it seems to be "geographic diversity exists in ways besides direct physical materiality, thus, free will of any kind is a lie, thus, vaccination isn't a choice". Which is uh... deep?
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Sep 21, 2021 19:36
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Jarmak posted:I'm going to say you need to provide a coherent argument before we even get to the sourcing issue. I'm arguing against the notion that a health system should punish individuals for making Wrong Choice. Ideally a state should socially and culturally restructure backwards areas, but blaming individuals is pretty stupid. Unless you think people who smoke, drive, or are fat are somehow morally inferior and not the product of structural conditions. They're all damaging public health but believing that is the product of choice is pretty stupid. Humans are just animals and their responses are pre-programmed based on stimuli. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 19:43
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Vasukhani posted:I'm arguing against the notion that a health system should punish individuals for making Wrong Choice. Ideally a state should socially and culturally restructure backwards areas, but blaming individuals is pretty stupid. Unless you think people who smoke, drive, or are fat are somehow morally inferior and not the product of structural conditions. The existence of free will and the existence of structural conditions is not an either/or question.
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Sep 21, 2021 19:46
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Jarmak posted:The existence of free will and the existence of structural conditions is not an either/or question. Free will on the individual level is pretty clearly just retroactive window dressing with a minuscule effect compared to conditions. Unless, what, people in the south are just worse people? They just choose worse than people in vermont and connecticut? Not god's select? States, however, have a level of power that they can meaningly shape conditions. We usually blame the shepherd for the overfed sheep. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 19:50
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I think it's a bit far to go full Peter Watts when normal social conditioning and active capitalist realism is probably a much more prosaic answer, but we clearly are not born into a vacuum after which we build our ideology like character creation in an MMO or anything. I think the question I'd have would be "at what point do we treat active refusal different than mere ignorance, or is there sufficient reason to do that at all from a public health perspective?" If we're not in a position where someone is going to get turned away from an empty bed because they failed a triage test, it's just more work for HCWs to no different end, and if we're going to do that it's not going to involve broader sociological considerations anyway because that's not how triage works
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Sep 21, 2021 19:52
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Epic High Five posted:I think it's a bit far to go full Peter Watts when normal social conditioning and active capitalist realism is probably a much more prosaic answer, but we clearly are not born into a vacuum after which we build our ideology like character creation in an MMO or anything. I think the question I'd have would be "at what point do we treat active refusal different than mere ignorance, or is there sufficient reason to do that at all from a public health perspective?" For me personally I do think there's enough media malfeasance via Murdoch alone that I find it hard to blame people trapped in a cycle stewing of dopamine pushing brain poison. People should be coerced into getting vaccinated and punished for violating mandates*, but I'm not someone who can say they should be punished by denying them access to medical care. It's an ethical and moral quandary that I am personally glad I am not in the position of making. *When and where they exist
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Sep 21, 2021 20:06
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Professor Beetus posted:For me personally I do think there's enough media malfeasance via Murdoch alone that I find it hard to blame people trapped in a cycle stewing of dopamine pushing brain poison. People should be coerced into getting vaccinated and punished for violating mandates*, but I'm not someone who can say they should be punished by denying them access to medical care. It's an ethical and moral quandary that I am personally glad I am not in the position of making. I don't think they should be *punished*, but if it's a matter of allocating scarce resources I have no problem letting it be a tie-breaker.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:10
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It's definitely very frustrating that $20k antibody treatments are going largely to dipshits who won't get a $20 shot, but that seems like the obvious moral/utilitarian policy. The antibody infusions are going to do the most good for unvaccinated sick people, so that's where they're directed. On the other hand we shouldn't be encouraging people to not get vaccinated by hyping the effectiveness of therapeutics. Was that what DeSantis was kind of doing? I haven't had a chance to read the article linked earlier.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:18
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Fritz the Horse posted:It's definitely very frustrating that $20k antibody treatments are going largely to dipshits who won't get a $20 shot, but that seems like the obvious moral/utilitarian policy. Only if you subscribe to the belief that their lives are equally worthwhile
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Sep 21, 2021 20:21
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Unless there's some new research saying otherwise, there's also a good chance the doses are being misallocated to some degree with these schemes, as it's only regarded as the "rich people miracle juice" because rich people are getting tested daily and flooded with the stuff the instant they pop positive, and if they have a rough time with the disease we just never hear about it. But then again, if it's primarily useful to people getting tested at least a couple times a week, well that's almost nobody so,
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Sep 21, 2021 20:29
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I'd be curious to see how this holds up to the analysis of being hospitalized with covid vs for covid, and if there's actually evidence of vaccinated people being denied these treatments and suffering worse health outcomes as a result. I am however screaming mad that these dipshit anti-vaxxers are flooding the health care system to begin with. I dunno if anyone else has noticed but we don't have a particularly healthy system and the strain this poo poo is putting on our healthcare workers really needs to be addressed because they are being put through hell.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:35
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Epic High Five posted:Unless there's some new research saying otherwise, there's also a good chance the doses are being misallocated to some degree with these schemes, as it's only regarded as the "rich people miracle juice" because rich people are getting tested daily and flooded with the stuff the instant they pop positive, and if they have a rough time with the disease we just never hear about it. We have enough fast drive through sites that I should probably get tested twice a week or something lol
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Sep 21, 2021 20:39
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Professor Beetus posted:I know Fritz was taking about week long waits for vaccines on their reservation but a week wait is still preferable to being in a country with little to no vaccine access. That's because vaccine distribution is through Indian Health Service (IHS) which is notoriously underfunded and understaffed (it is literally rationed care, IHS has a fixed budget and that's all the care they can provide). There isn't a lack of doses, it's just that IHS is doing the distribution on top of all their other normal functions. There aren't any private healthcare facilities or pharmacies to do distribution. I mean I could drive three hours to a big chain pharmacy but meh
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Sep 21, 2021 20:42
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Fritz the Horse posted:It's definitely very frustrating that $20k antibody treatments are going largely to dipshits who won't get a $20 shot, but that seems like the obvious moral/utilitarian policy. The antibody infusions are going to do the most good for unvaccinated sick people, so that's where they're directed. Are they actually 20k/dose? I've seen about 1-2k cited. If I had a large in person workforce it seems like surveillance testing and monoclonals would pay for themselves in terms of minimizing disruptions in productivity for a whole lot of US-wage industries
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Sep 21, 2021 20:42
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Zarin posted:UP, or just the top of the mitten? I was in Harbor Springs, I have no idea where that is haha. Top of the mitten I guess
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Sep 21, 2021 20:43
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kiimo posted:I was in Harbor Springs, I have no idea where that is haha That's the scenic northwestern corner of the lower peninsula
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Sep 21, 2021 20:44
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poll plane variant posted:Are they actually 20k/dose? I've seen about 1-2k cited. If I had a large in person workforce it seems like surveillance testing and monoclonals would pay for themselves in terms of minimizing disruptions in productivity for a whole lot of US-wage industries I dunno where I got the $20k number, my bad. I just quickly googled and I get $2,100 per dose from a Guardian article. My fault for skimming stuff and not reading in full. edit: I mean it's still vastly more expensive than vaccination. I suspect one reason that keeps popping up in these news articles is because it's an effective way to get many Americans upset- "look at all your taxpayer dollars being misused!"
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Sep 21, 2021 20:45
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Fritz the Horse posted:I dunno where I got the $20k number, my bad. I just quickly googled and I get $2,100 per dose from a Guardian article. It's ok I do that constantly myself. This is kind of a pet issue for me because they seem to be relatively useful and everyone writes them off as only for Bill Gates or whatever Fritz the Horse posted:. I'm curious to see how useful they are in vaccinated patients, I need to do some digging. It makes sense that they'd do a lot for someone if used immediately on positive test result before antibodies can ramp back up, but idk if we see that in reality.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:48
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It's been discussed in terms of cost per dose since back to last fall when it was more or less purely experimental, and back then yeah it was probably close to 50k a dose. If it's now being manufactured in amounts such that they're giving it away in libraries it's probably a good deal cheaper. If it's a biologic, the prices on those can get truly eye watering
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Sep 21, 2021 20:51
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poll plane variant posted:It's ok I do that constantly myself. This is kind of a pet issue for me because they seem to be relatively useful and everyone writes them off as only for Bill Gates or whatever Yeah I'm posting at work so not doing thorough reads like I really should. It does seem like it'd be a very useful therapy combined with regular testing so you can catch infections early and get antibody juice while it's still effective. Particularly for "front-line" and "essential" workers who need to be working in-person and assuming some infection risk to do their jobs effectively. (I'm looking at you, healthcare workers, teachers, delivery etc) I would assume the effectiveness of monoclonal antibodies in vaccinated people is going to be directly related to how strong a person's vaccine immunity is. Maybe not all that helpful for younger relatively healthy people but significant impact for the elderly and immunocompromised. edit: Professor Beetus posted:I'm sure most of us have long since stopped reading poo poo like this, but I this is what I mean when I say that this is unsustainable for our health care workers (and also UCS Hellmaker's continued existence): yeah and another anecdote, I just got off a telehealth call with a specialist and he said "yeah just let us know if anything changes or you need anything we'll do the best we can but we don't have any beds right now and we're pretty overwhelmed" which I took as "don't get sick" Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 20:54
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I'm sure most of us have long since stopped reading poo poo like this, but I this is what I mean when I say that this is unsustainable for our health care workers (and also UCS Hellmaker's continued existence): Throw another health care worker profile on the pile e: Kaal posted:Which fur friend deserves to be treated first?: Trick question; the dogs have already received treatment and the cat is still waiting to be seen. Probably another example of feline discrimination. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 20:55
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Epic High Five posted:It's been discussed in terms of cost per dose since back to last fall when it was more or less purely experimental, and back then yeah it was probably close to 50k a dose. If it's now being manufactured in amounts such that they're giving it away in libraries it's probably a good deal cheaper. If it's a biologic, the prices on those can get truly eye watering Yeah I think this is the first time monoclonal antibodies have been just "really expensive" vs. "holy poo poo expensive". IIRC some monoclonals like rituximab are still like 10k+ a treatment.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:59
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Fritz the Horse posted:thanks for giving it an actual read, shame on me a little bit I didn't dig into the underlying publication No shame, thanks for posting the article! It's very important (and somewhat depressing) for interpreting hospitalization statistics and how they shift. Hopefully they'll do some deeper follow-up so we can get a sense the breakdown between admissions for other causes with a non-serious COVID test and admissions for COVID with serious symptoms/risk-factors that happened to not have SpO2<94. Professor Beetus posted:Trick question; the dogs have already received treatment and the cat is still waiting to be seen. Probably another example of feline discrimination. That cat is looking pretty satisfied. Perhaps it is healthy but enjoys hanging out in vet clinics to watch dogs suffer?
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Sep 21, 2021 22:05
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Cats are inveterate liars. We can’t trust the history it provides and must subject it to a battery of tests.
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Sep 21, 2021 22:11
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Platystemon posted:Cats are inveterate liars. We can’t trust the history it provides and must subject it to a battery of tests. This is actually 100% true, cats are always doing what they can to hide the diagnosis and die.
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Sep 21, 2021 22:39
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HelloSailorSign posted:This is actually 100% true, cats are always doing what they can to hide the diagnosis and die. I have to imagine that Platystemon knew exactly how medically accurate they were being. 
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Sep 22, 2021 00:45
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I am aware that cats hide injuries as a survival trait.
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Sep 22, 2021 01:44
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Big update to Covid Simulator tonight based on the feedback I got here! It was noticed the "curve" of infection wasn't particularly realistic. There were a few problems with how it worked that carried over from its original super basic prototype: 1) the original prototype used circles to represent the distance, and was replaced by character sprites. This means the distance scale was no longer the same, as the characters were actually larger than the circles. I changed that to be a distance based model. the closer you are, the higher the exposure, the further you are the lower the exposure 2) upon catching covid, you were immediately able to spread covid to another person. I had a hard time finding concrete data on when you start breathing deadly covid gas, so for now you need at least 24 hours after infection to start spreading covid 3) when you're moving, it calculate the spread of covid the exact same as if you were standing still, even if you weren't facing each other. Now its smarter about spreading covid while moving The result? A niceeee exponential curve taking between 2-5 days to completely spread across the building (depending on layouts and distances)  After getting this sorted, I promptly added a 9am meeting in the office for a handful of workers (managers?). I had just added cafeterias yesterday at noon time (covid simulator: https://coldrice.itch.io/covid-simulator) Coldrice fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 03:56
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