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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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Professor Beetus posted:I think someone incapable of recognizing the need for a shared space to be as accommodating to as many people as possible doesn't have a place here, actually. I’m a bit dumbfounded that this is receiving so much pushback.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:25
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This is the weirdest slap fight
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Sep 24, 2021 02:29
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Gio posted:I understand your desire to moderate “unfettered nihilism,” as you put it, but strongly disagree that this ever has to resort to diagnosing strangers with mental unwellness. Asking people to not constantly post white noise about how everything is hosed and suggesting they take a break from covid news is not armchair diagnosis nor an attempt at therapy; it's a human desire to be empathetic and encouraging, as we are all doing our best to make it through a global pandemic. Again, if this is too hard for folks to grasp, they are welcome to post somewhere else. I haven't probed a single person in this thread other than OOCC, and after discussing things with them I came around and rescinded their thread ban. If I had hit them with something more than a six hour I would have asked to rescind it. I'm actually pretty happy with not probing anyone and have been largely encouraged by most of the posting in here. I don't think my asks thus far have been unreasonable, and if I'm ever not clear in what I'm asking from you, please let me know so I can clarify. 
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Sep 24, 2021 02:34
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mod sassinator posted:It's tiring to be two years into the worst pandemic in our modern history, one that has now killed more Americans than the last greatest pandemic, and still have people claiming we've done the best we possibly could and the administration is beyond criticism. Know what else is tiring? People claiming that non-authoritarian countries should model themselves after PRC due to its Covid performance. Many of the things that PRC was able to do would probably not be possible in a liberal democracy with rule of law. Many of the Covid-related actions PRC has taken have been horrendous. The government first tried to hide the outbreak. Heroic Chinese medical professionals and scientists during the initial waves were silenced. Many died, and who knows what happened with those who survived. People were unbelievably outraged. I've never seen so much anger online from Chinese people, and that's no small feat. But then authorities unleashed the full arsenal of censorship weapons. The government has promoted conspiracy theories about the origins of Covid (Yes, I know Trump did, too). It has been secretive with evidence on its vaccines. It has been uncooperative with the international community regarding studies on the origins of Covid. It has obstructed Taiwan's participation in global health initiatives. It meddled with the WHO report to the point that it's basically useless. At the same time, PRC has used Covid to take many horrendous actions unrelated to Covid. While the world's attention has been elsewhere, Xi has been consolidating power, and China has been moving in a politically repressive direction that is reversing decades of gradual progressive movement. The initial outrage about Covid unfortunately exposed critics like an unintentional Hundred Flowers Campaign. Internally, censorship is as strong as ever and pervades society to an unbelievable degree. Even private messages can be shadowbanned. Nationalism is being stoked aggressively. Weird, regressive, paternalistic laws have been passed, such as a 'cooling down' period for divorces, which only serves to hurt women. While hardly new, genocide in Xinjiang continues. Lately LGBT is the target, with civil society groups, online groups, celebrities, and event 'feminine content' being banned. Externally, PRC has been increasingly aggressive in its neighborhood while its neighbors have been isolated and buckling under Covid. Hong Kong has been transformed. Instead of the global, cosmopolitan city it was, it now has billboards proclaiming that only true patriots can rule Hong Kong and articles celebrating record-breaking elections (small print: of 4000 handpicked voters, choosing 1/3rd of an election committee, the other 2/3rds of which were handpicked). Taiwan has its been against the wall in ways it hasn't in decades. The South China Sea is as tense as it has ever been. (Yes, I know that the US has been the world's principle warmonger for ages, but it hardly excuses PRC's behavior.) Meanwhile there are good examples of countries that have handled Covid well without being authoritarian regimes. Taiwan has done a phenomenal job despite being largely excluded from international cooperation due to obstruction from PRC. Yes, it's an island, but it has a large, dense population and was heavily exposed to mainland travelers during the initial days of Covid.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:41
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Also, imagine genuinely believing that China only lost 4,000 to the pandemic. 
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Sep 24, 2021 02:54
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Smeef posted:Know what else is tiring? People claiming that non-authoritarian countries should model themselves after PRC due to its Covid performance. None of these things are directly related to China's success at containing the virus. Good job reading Western media about China and being able to recite all of their most recent talking points off the top of your head in a single post though.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:55
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Also, imagine genuinely believing that China only lost 4,000 to the pandemic. What evidence is there that the death toll was faked?
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Sep 24, 2021 03:00
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Also, imagine genuinely believing that China only lost 4,000 to the pandemic. 
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Sep 24, 2021 03:00
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Oh good, this loving bullshit again.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:01
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Professor Beetus posted:If you can't handle the objective fact that fully vaccinated masked up are exceedingly unlikely to get covid, and infinitesimally unlikely to die from it , then it's actually you who needs to stay out of the thread. “Exceedingly rare” and “infinitesimally unlikely” are gross mischaracterizations. About 25% of cases, 25% of hospitalizations, and nearly 20% of deaths in MI recently (August 8-September 9) have been those who are fully vaccinated. The hospitalizations and deaths are likely older and more immunocompromised, but should that matter? I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve known a dozen breakthroughs in my family alone. At the time, that number was actually 11 breakthroughs–now it’s 13. One of those cases developed Covid pneumonia and was hospitalized. At least two others were pretty rough despite being “mild” and not requiring hospitalization. This is pretty much in line with data being published by hospital systems around the country, which I’ve also previously posted and is not too hard to find. My goal is not to discredit the vaccines, or to say they don’t do an amazing job at preventing hospitalization and death, but to discredit the popular misconception—propagated by the Biden Admin and CDC, and disseminated in the media—that they are a Covid force field and good enough reason to throw all precaution to the wind because Covid is now “endemic.” 
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Sep 24, 2021 03:12
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I should not have to ask you at this point to give us the source you are using to claim case statistics- nor the idea that the administration is propagating that vaccines are "a Covid force field and good enough reason to throw all precaution to the wind because Covid is now “endemic.”"
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Sep 24, 2021 03:15
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Uh in this house we say "Open Biden"
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Sep 24, 2021 03:17
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Bathtub Cheese posted:What evidence is there that the death toll was faked? Faked? I wouldn't quite go that far, but there's some evidence that they left out excess deaths at the very least. This is a good start: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/30/covid-19-deaths-in-wuhan-seem-far-higher-than-the-official-count Also: https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n415 Stickman posted:Oh good, this loving bullshit again. You're right, we should talk about something else. Apologies for reopening this can of worms. 
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Sep 24, 2021 03:19
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Breakthrough cases are not exceedingly rare.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:26
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Gio it's important to consider the absolute numbers of hospitalizations/deaths alongside the relative numbers of vaccinated vs. not. It's certainly true there are breakthrough cases but the vaccines are still like 85-90% versus severe infection. In high-vaccination rate areas you're going to have a higher proportion of vaccinated people with severe illness simply because most everyone is vaccinated. Like in the Israeli study - more than 60% of their hospitalizations in the summer were vaccinated people. You'd expect to have much less severe disease overall and an increasing % of vaccinated people in the hospital as you reach high rates of vaccination. I also don't get the sense of "vaccine = perfect force field" from the media and gov't at all. My impression is along the lines of "get your drat vaccines and those in combination with testing, masking, distancing, etc drastically reduce risk and allow us to return to some in-person functions." I mean, I'm going on a camping trip with family this weekend. We're all vaccinated. Nobody believes it's a magic force field, everyone that is taking the pandemic seriously enough to get vaccinated is well aware of breakthrough cases and that vaccinated people can still rarely get severe illness especially if elderly or immunocompromised etc. As a result we're masking and distancing in public spaces just like always and we won't be dining indoors or attending large public events. There was an art festival we thought about attending but everyone was uncomfortable with that because despite being outdoors it will be a lot of people and it's the loving Black Hills of South Dakota which is having a huge post-Sturgis spike in cases with no mask mandate or anything.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:29
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to ask you at this point to give us the source you are using to claim case statistics- nor the idea that the administration is propagating that vaccines are "a Covid force field and good enough reason to throw all precaution to the wind because Covid is now “endemic.”" Second, I can’t believe I honestly have to point out… - The CDC telling vaccinated people they no longer had to mask or socially distance. - Rochelle Walensky and the CDC, up until recently, claiming 99% of deaths and 97% of hospitalizations were unvaccinated. - The use of the phrase: “Pandemic of the unvaccinated.” - Removal of most-all NPIs. They have absolutely contributed to the attitude that vaccination means you should 100% return to normal activities as before Covid.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:31
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The messaging back in the spring from the CDC director was that vaccinated people didn't get sick and couldn't carry the virus. Her statement should be viewed in the same light as Pence's "there is no second wave" editorial from May 2020.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:34
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Faked? I wouldn't quite go that far, but there's some evidence that they left out excess deaths at the very least. 4,000 vs 13,000 is small potatoes compared to Brazil, India, EU and US which are all wracked with institutional dysfunction and (near-)collapse in healthcare provision. Why not litigate the death tolls in countries that have demonstrably failed to do anything to contain the virus besides giving the pharmaceutical industry countless billions to deploy a vaccine for them? Their discrepancies are surely higher by orders of magnitude.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:38
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brugroffil posted:The messaging back in the spring from the CDC director was that vaccinated people didn't get sick and couldn't carry the virus. Her statement should be viewed in the same light as Pence's "there is no second wave" editorial from May 2020. Exactly, now we're supposed to believe this never happened because the US government changed its tune when their lies were exposed by the spread of the virus itself
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Sep 24, 2021 03:42
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Fritz the Horse posted:Gio it's important to consider the absolute numbers of hospitalizations/deaths alongside the relative numbers of vaccinated vs. not. It's certainly true there are breakthrough cases but the vaccines are still like 85-90% versus severe infection. In high-vaccination rate areas you're going to have a higher proportion of vaccinated people with severe illness simply because most everyone is vaccinated. Like in the Israeli study - more than 60% of their hospitalizations in the summer were vaccinated people. You'd expect to have much less severe disease overall and an increasing % of vaccinated people in the hospital as you reach high rates of vaccination. Yes, and this has been explained multiple times, across multiple versions of the thread, with sources, and once again we're having to push someone to provide their actual source and their actual numbers, because they are more interested in spreading fear. brugroffil posted:The messaging back in the spring from the CDC director was that vaccinated people didn't get sick and couldn't carry the virus. Her statement should be viewed in the same light as Pence's "there is no second wave" editorial from May 2020. I believe this was before we identified the emergence of the delta variant.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:47
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I dunno. I remember how badly the complete dropping of the mask mandates hit us because we have young vaccinated kids. Pretty much immediately we went back to not bringing them anywhere indoors. Our local area had been highly mask wearing right up until that policy change; overnight it went to basically no one anywhere. As for breakthroughs, my wife is fully vaccinated and masked. She still got COVID last month, which threw us into quarantine and put our unvaccinated children at risk. At any point in the past 19 months, someone on the pessimistic side of the scale would have been correct far, far more often. Turns out living through a pandemic sucks and takes years to get past!
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Sep 24, 2021 03:49
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Discendo Vox posted:
It was after we saw what Delta was doing to India, knowing full well we had no way of stopping it from coming here. Regardless, it was wrong and reckless before Delta took over.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:51
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Discendo Vox posted:I believe this was before we identified the emergence of the delta variant. Maybe I don’t get what you mean, but delta was obviously bad news on May 1, around two weeks before the CDC announcement. That’s when it hit its peak in India. I knew about it! https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/22628806/india-covid-19-cases-deaths-delta-variant https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996582891/fully-vaccinated-people-can-stop-wearing-masks-indoors-and-outdoors-cdc-says Are we talking about the same matter?
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Sep 24, 2021 03:53
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Bathtub Cheese posted:None of these things are directly related to China's success at containing the virus. Good job reading Western media about China and being able to recite all of their most recent talking points off the top of your head in a single post though. That was not my argument, though. My argument is that other countries are better models to follow than PRC for containing Covid and that posts claiming 'oh why cant we be like China' overlook a lot of the mistakes, horrible actions, and other baggage in China. I was responding to quote:China has only lost 4k people to this pandemic--how about we follow whatever they've done instead of just throw our hands up and say there's nothing we can do, this is the best possible outcome. And if you don't think authoritarian actions have directly related to China's success, then you are deluding yourself. Propaganda, censorship, and control of information have absolutely been a major part of China's Covid strategy. Generally I think what people mean when they say 'we should follow the China model' is to have rapid and strict lockdowns wherever there are outbreaks, limit internal movement, and perhaps to seal off international borders for all intents and purposes. I'm curious what other policies you think people should be advocating for. China is not the only place that has done that. Also, I live in China and my main English-language news source is the South China Morning Post, which is Chinese-owned and hardly pro-Western or critical of PRC in its coverage. So yeah, nice 'Western media' jab.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:56
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Discendo Vox posted:I believe this was before we identified the emergence of the delta variant. Further—the doomsayers, the cynics, the pessimists etc. warned of decreased efficacy of the vaccines against variants of concern, Delta included, based on lab studies testing for antibody neutralization using sera from previously infected individuals and mAbs (iirc) right about the time India was getting hammered earlier this year. Delta did not come out of nowhere, and by mid-May—when the CDC issued that guidance—almost certainly was aware of the threat.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:02
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Smeef posted:Generally I think what people mean when they say 'we should follow the China model' is to have rapid and strict lockdowns wherever there are outbreaks, limit internal movement, and perhaps to seal off international borders for all intents and purposes. I'm curious what other policies you think people should be advocating for. China is not the only place that has done that. Okay, what's the impediment then? It happened in China but not the US. Why?
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Sep 24, 2021 04:02
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brugroffil posted:The messaging back in the spring from the CDC director was that vaccinated people didn't get sick and couldn't carry the virus. Her statement should be viewed in the same light as Pence's "there is no second wave" editorial from May 2020. I don't believe the CDC said either of those things. Below are two outlets that have reported on this issue back in April. https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccines-effective-in-the-real-world-2021-3 quote:A study from the CDC provides early evidence that vaccinated people don't often transmit COVID-19. https://www.krqe.com/health/cdc-evidence-suggests-fully-vaccinated-people-do-not-transmit-covid-19/ quote:The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released data last week that shows people who are vaccinated can get COVID-19, but it is extremely uncommon. “There is this phenomenon called vaccine breakthrough cases,” New Mexico Human Services Secretary Dr. David Scrase explained. I do agree that dropping mask mandates and social distancing measures was dumb (and motivated by a desire to use it as a carrot to get more people to get vaccinated), but delta was barely a thing back then:  mawarannahr posted:Maybe I don’t get what you mean, but delta was obviously bad news on May 1, around two weeks before the CDC announcement. That’s when it hit its peak in India. I knew about it! Yes, we were starting to hear about what delta was doing to India, but first of all, India had no vaccines, and secondly, at the time the CDC may have calculated that by the time delta arrived in the US, overall vaccination numbers would have been high enough to greatly reduce its surge and impact. After all, it was still May, and we didn't yet know how big of a problem vaccine hesitancy would become (rate of vaccinations had started to decrease but the cause wasn't quite clear). Hindsight is 20/20.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:05
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Hindsight is 20/20. That's great and all but the CDC guidance was obviously poo poo when they delivered it and we are exactly in the situation it was obviously going to lead to. Im not sure i understand why you are so keen to announce that you missed it when it happened.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:10
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I don't believe the CDC said either of those things. Ok. The head of the CDC said it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/cdc-vaccination-comments-director-rochelle-walensky-2021-4%3famp quote:Hindsight is 20/20. The US rushed ahead of other countries with stronger vaccination programs to drop NPI's. The CDC later expressed shock that their honor system based "only unvaccinated need to mask" policy resulted in no one wearing masks* rather than the unvaccinated getting a shot. Incompetency or cynical lying, either way not great! *Those of us who continued to play it safe and wear masks were often derided; plenty of national editorials discussed just how silly we were being, and posters here would be called cavers and doomers. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 24, 2021 04:14
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Hindsight is 20/20. Okay, this is again very annoying because there were plenty of people that warned about Delta and before Delta warned about variants of concern. This was based not on fear-mongering but based on evidence from other countries and lab studies showing insufficient antibody neutralization. And anyone half-paying attention to the state of affairs in the US could have predicted that vaccine hesitancy would eventually prove to be a huge obstacle.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:17
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Vasukhani posted:Okay, what's the impediment then? It happened in China but not the US. Why? Can you clarify what you're asking? I assume you mean "why wasn't the US able to implement strict lockdowns like China?" but am not entirely sure. If that's the question, I don't think it's as relevant to compare the US to China as it is to compare the US to countries like Australia or Taiwan, which have more similar political regimes (though still very different from the US in many ways). I don't think there's a short answer, but at least examples like those demonstrate that the US could have had an effective Covid response without having an authoritarian system.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:26
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Gio posted:Okay, this is again very annoying because there were plenty of people that warned about Delta and before Delta warned about variants of concern. This was based not on fear-mongering but based on evidence from other countries and lab studies showing insufficient antibody neutralization. Insufficient antibody neutralization? The vaccines are still highly effective against the delta variant. The reason it blew up here isn't because vaccines are ineffective against it, it's because there's still vast numbers of people who aren't vaccinated and delta's extremely high transmissibility is making it spread amongst them at a much faster rate than other variants previously did.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:27
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Insufficient antibody neutralization? The vaccines are still highly effective against the delta variant. The reason it blew up here isn't because vaccines are ineffective against it, it's because there's still vast numbers of people who aren't vaccinated and delta's extremely high transmissibility is making it spread amongst them at a much faster rate than other variants previously did. No, no, no, no, no. The vaccines remain highly effective against severe disease with respect to delta, but studies have shown their efficacy against infection and transmission has dropped significantly. Check a few pages back for sources and discussion of this. Getting covid is not good, even if it does not qualify as severe. Mild cases don't sound pleasant and the prospect of long covid remains a significant risk, even with a less than severe bout.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:34
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Smeef posted:Can you clarify what you're asking? I assume you mean "why wasn't the US able to implement strict lockdowns like China?" but am not entirely sure. Wasn't there community spread in the US well before Australia locked down. A much harder lockdown would have been required.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:35
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MooselanderII posted:No, no, no, no, no. The vaccines remain highly effective against severe disease with respect to delta, but studies have shown their efficacy against infection and transmission has dropped significantly. Check a few pages back for sources and discussion of this. The high threshold for "severe" in the US has really understated how nasty a disease this is to actually, catch.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:37
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Insufficient antibody neutralization? The vaccines are still highly effective against the delta variant. The reason it blew up here isn't because vaccines are ineffective against it, it's because there's still vast numbers of people who aren't vaccinated and delta's extremely high transmissibility is making it spread amongst them at a much faster rate than other variants previously did. Regardless, I think it’s a combination of all variables: reduced efficacy against delta + waning vaxx antibody levels + unvaccinated hordes = delta wave. Even 80% vaxxed Singapore is experiencing a significant wave of Delta infections. Last—I don’t think there’s any reason to presume vaccine efficacy won’t further wane (wrt being “highly effective” I agree it is but I’ll point again to the fact that 25% of hospitalizations and 20% of deaths in MI are fully vaxxed). And I don’t think there’s any reason to presume a future variant won’t be capable of outcompeting Delta.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:41
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Discendo Vox posted:I believe this was before we identified the emergence of the delta variant.   21 days before the CDC changed their mask guidance: https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1385323417210134531?s=19
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Sep 24, 2021 04:48
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Also late April was when it was becoming clear that the pace of vaccination in US was sharply dropping, IIRC.
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Sep 24, 2021 04:54
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OddObserver posted:Also late April was when it was becoming clear that the pace of vaccination in US was sharply dropping, IIRC.  https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends
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Sep 24, 2021 04:59
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Ahh, thanks. A bit later than I (mis)remembered, but perhaps not enough to change the overall picture.
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Sep 24, 2021 05:02
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