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Wiz, Im curious why is the term "state region" used instead of just region? Cause I can see players mixing up 'state' and 'state region' easily.
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Sep 23, 2021 23:08
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trapped mouse posted:One of the interesting things is that I'm 99% sure that cores never disappear in Vicky 2, if a state starts as a core of a nation it will stay that way until 1936, same with any cores that you ended up gaining. Also, I believe a core can appear in any state, I'm pretty sure the USA could core Alberta, you would just need to wait for the random event to pop up. The main problem would be getting the state in the first place, The UK can kick the USA's rear end for like 80-100% of the game's timeline. There are some specific events/decisions that remove cores, but yeah for the most part cores never go away in Vicky 2. I feel like the thing about gaining/losing cores in Victoria is that it's the time period when national borders really started to solidify, compared to previous centuries, so cores being a bit less flexible does fit the period, but on the other hand it is annoying to go on a big ahistorical conquest and then the game has essentially no way to recognize it.
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Sep 23, 2021 23:14
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The dev diaries for vicky3 give me hope for a genuinely unique game. It makes me recall how drat lazy the effort for imperator seemed. I hope this game lets me further fragment the US during the civil war, and form the SEC, the most dominant conference in the nation. SnoochtotheNooch fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Sep 23, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 23:24
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I honestly think the 100-year timeframe is too small for cores to go away. Even in EU4 cores are what, 150 years and permanent if they're main culture?
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Sep 23, 2021 23:59
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I liked the permanence of only slightly changeable nature of cores in Vicky 2, personally.
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Sep 24, 2021 05:11
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Zeron posted:Yeah my reading is that incorporated states are basically the economic parts of cores from previous games, but homelands are the diplomatic part. Although the dev responses do note that you get a claim if an incorporated state is taken from you, but I imagine it needs to be a full Homeland state to trigger revanchism/get really good CBs. Edgar Allen Ho posted:I honestly think the 100-year timeframe is too small for cores to go away. Even in EU4 cores are what, 150 years and permanent if they're main culture?
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Sep 24, 2021 05:11
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I think that's less Prussia's homeland expanding, and more that they've joined up as part of a greater whole albeit one in which they have a leading role in guiding what that is and what that means.
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Sep 24, 2021 05:19
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think that's less Prussia's homeland expanding, and more that they've joined up as part of a greater whole albeit one in which they have a leading role in guiding what that is and what that means.
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Sep 24, 2021 07:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But that’s the point. A “homeland” is a cultural/political construct, its definition changing with both nationalist ambition and the conception of who “the people” are. It is not a historical fact. Prussia isn’t just becoming part of the German nation and accepting some Ur-Germany as its homeland, it is an active participant in defining it. Part of that is building the shared identity of "German" in the first place, though. Another way to think of it is, suppose that German unification never panned out and the country splintered into a bunch of different substates - it wouldn't really make sense for people of "Prussian" culture to consider Bohemia as part of their homeland and have revanchist movements to "reclaim" a territory they have no connection to. This is something the game could theoretically model by having pops start to convert to a new melting pot culture as part of big national unification efforts - and it also creates the interesting possibility of failing to do this and unifying as a nation, but not a culture - think something like Yugoslavia or Austria-Hungary. Maybe you should have to commit administrative resources to really sell people on the idea of national unification, rather than it just being an automatic thing that happens because you pushed the "form Germany" button. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 24, 2021 09:19
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Zeron posted:Yeah my reading is that incorporated states are basically the economic parts of cores from previous games, but homelands are the diplomatic part. Although the dev responses do note that you get a claim if an incorporated state is taken from you, but I imagine it needs to be a full Homeland state to trigger revanchism/get really good CBs. I wonder if the quote about a state region containing 50 provinces is accurate. If they're using real world administrative divisions as the basis for state regions there's probably going to be a lot of variation in how many provinces are in a state. Modern-day metropolitan (European) France is divided into 13 administrative regions, but altogether it's not that much larger than California, which has already been confirmed to be a single state region in V3. It'll be interesting to see how detailed the map is, even if individual provinces seem to mostly be used for military troop movements and calculating resource distribution. I hope they just re-use the imperator map tbh, at least the portions covering Italy and the eastern med/western asia. It's got the nicest version of Iran in any paradox game from a military standpoint, with all the valleys and mountain passes.
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Sep 24, 2021 09:43
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Red Bones posted:If they're using real world administrative divisions as the basis for state regions I hope they're not that insane. It's clear there have to be a lot of compromises made, even more than what you have with, say, cultures.
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Sep 24, 2021 09:53
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I think Austria is the more interesting example here than Prussia. Prior to German unification Austria was absolutely seen as part of "the German nation" and whether or not Austria would be part of the unification was a major issue in the timeperiod. But nowadays it's thought of as almost "natural" that Germany and Austria are separate nations with their own separate nationalism and "natural" homelands so to speak. Also consider East Prussia. The player should absolutely have influence on these kinds of things, in my view.
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Sep 24, 2021 10:05
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ilitarist posted:I hope they're not that insane. It's clear there have to be a lot of compromises made, even more than what you have with, say, cultures. I don't think it's a huge issue to do it if they pick the bigger administrative divisions in a country as the basis, or adjust them when the divisions are obviously too granular, which seems to be what's going on outside of special cases like the US where the federal divisions are such a big deal and it's such a popular country that people would get upset with them subdividing California or Texas. Splitting france into around 13 states is reasonable imho, especially as one of those is Corsica, which going by the dev diary would definitely be a French State within the bigger 'State Region' of Corsica and Sardinia. It's already confirmed that the states in the US are the present-day US states. I think from the map screenshots it's also confirmed Japan is split into its modern-day eight regions rather than having every prefecture be a state. For somewhere like the UK, counties are definitely too granular to use as state regions but I could see them splitting the country into Ireland, Wales, Lowlands Scotland, Highlands Scotland, and then split england into something like North/Midlands/South.
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Sep 24, 2021 10:38
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They best have Alsace and Lorraine as separate instead of having the boche conqueror's Alsace-Moselle labelled "Alsace-Lorraine," then lumping the rest of Lorraine into Champagne 
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Sep 24, 2021 11:02
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Elsass-Lothringen you mean
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Sep 24, 2021 11:17
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Part of that is building the shared identity of "German" in the first place, though.
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Sep 24, 2021 15:50
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The Southern Californian people demand their rightful homeland to be rid of the harsh yoke of the Northern Californian oppressors.
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Sep 24, 2021 16:18
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Gaius Marius posted:Elsass-Lothringen you mean I still think it'd be a fun dlc to represent things like this for real though. Like, Alsace/Elsass spoke a german dialect. Also was the origin of La Marseillaise (should be called La Strasbourgeoise.) The culture was clearly german, but also clearly french. Before the angry language teachers came, everyone spoke thick bad swabian and identified as french republicans. Culture vs accepted nationality. Gimme the DLC. My République Populaire d'Alsace/Volksrepublik Elsass needs content.
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Sep 24, 2021 16:55
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DrSunshine posted:The Southern Californian people demand their rightful homeland to be rid of the harsh yoke of the Northern Californian oppressors. https://sandowbirk.com/great-war-of-the-californias
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Sep 24, 2021 19:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's exactly my point. There shouldn't be a predefined Germany for Prussia/Austria to take control of, rather the possibility to convince some portion of Germans that they're part of a greater identity than just their regional one. Hell, a North/South split of the country, centered around Prussia and Austria respectively, where neither side considers the other a natural part of their nation should be a possibility too. Victoria specifically is constrained by it's 100 year timespan in this sense because... there pretty much was a predefined Germany for prussia/austria to take control of. German pan-nationalism was something that yeah prussia was actively choosing to take advantage of, but it was also an independent political movement in it's own right that was already going by the time the game starts.
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Sep 24, 2021 20:50
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Yeah and that’s honestly true of most of Europe. You can want alt scenarios but they would mostly be pure fantasy
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Sep 24, 2021 20:52
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The only thing that I could think of fitting that mold is some wildly successful russian Empire pushing panslavism to it's maximum extent
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Sep 24, 2021 21:32
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HoI4 has all kinds of neo-monarchist routes, CK3 lets you reform the Roman Empire, and EU4 is adding the ability for Mali to crash the entire economy of Europe with gold. I think there's room for wild alt history fantasy scenarios in Vicky 3 (eventually, probably after launch)
Takanago fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 24, 2021 21:40
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You can reform the Byzantine Empire in Vicky 2. And it will be a feature in three as well
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Sep 24, 2021 21:42
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Considering how many people seem to play Paradox games solely for the purpose of all these wacky illogical scenarios I can't see them not including a bunch
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Sep 24, 2021 21:45
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Vicky 2 lets you form Babylon. You can't get much more alt history than that. Just go all in, sure it's goofy and not historical, but forming nations is like one of the most fun goals of most paradox games (at least for me). Let me form the Inca as Peru, or recreate the Mongol Empire, or some insane Pan-African nation, or some kind of Pan-American Natives federation..if I've already basically already won the region then why not.
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Sep 24, 2021 21:48
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Takanago posted:HoI4 has all kinds of neo-monarchist routes, CK3 lets you reform the Roman Empire, and EU4 is adding the ability for Mali to crash the entire economy of Europe with gold. I think there's room for wild alt history fantasy scenarios in Vicky 3 (eventually, probably after launch) They've already nerfed the mail thing 
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Sep 24, 2021 21:56
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I mean I don’t think the point is you shouldn’t have those because you certainly will but the idea that they definitely could have if things broke another way is a bit silly
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Sep 24, 2021 21:57
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Zeron posted:Vicky 2 lets you form Babylon. You can't get much more alt history than that. Just go all in, sure it's goofy and not historical, but forming nations is like one of the most fun goals of most paradox games (at least for me). Let me form the Inca as Peru, or recreate the Mongol Empire, or some insane Pan-African nation, or some kind of Pan-American Natives federation..if I've already basically already won the region then why not. Formables also give you some direction in areas that might otherwise be a bit aimless. Like the historical outcome for a lot of places was just "got stomped on by the Europeans", but generally if you are playing as a historical underdog you kind of want the possibility of becoming an ahistorical great power and maybe even turning the tables on the colonizers, and "just get big" is less interesting than "form the Pan-African union". Like sure, re-creating the Byzantine empire is a bit silly and mostly a meme at this point (not that the Greeks wouldn't take Istanbul back if they could, but they probably would not specifically do it in the name of the Byzantine empire), but it's a way to at least give players some idea of what they are shooting for by drawing on historical empires they are already familiar with. Plus you had guys like Mussolini with delusions of recreating the Roman Empire as late as WW2 so there's always gonna be someone like that out there to make those wackier ideas at least a little bit plausible.
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Sep 24, 2021 22:18
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Orange Devil posted:I think Austria is the more interesting example here than Prussia. I think having a "homeland" is a good way to deal with these things, and I think the homeland set up in 1836 doesn't need to be all that dynamic. Even if these concepts eventually change, I don't think there are examples of things dramatically and importantly changing within that time period. Maybe you unite your homeland minus some bit attached to another powerful state and just call it a day, like Germany did, but the game doesn't really need to change anything to reflect that because the vague idea it represents is probably still going to be there.
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Sep 24, 2021 22:44
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Hearts of Iron IV also lets you re-form the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Andalusia, the Persian Empire, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as well as forming Gran Colombia, a nation which wasn’t ever more than a proposal, all in the late 1930s and the 1940s. There’s not going to be a shortage of alt-history formable nations in V3
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Sep 25, 2021 00:42
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The plan is to have a lot of fun/weird formables and releasables but let you turn the blatantly ahistorical/weird ones off (or make player only) with a game rule.
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Sep 26, 2021 13:42
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Each wiz's post doubles the hype, seriously he could post his shopping list and I'd still be like 
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Sep 26, 2021 13:51
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LonsomeSon posted:Hearts of Iron IV also lets you re-form the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Andalusia, the Persian Empire, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as well as forming Gran Colombia, a nation which wasn’t ever more than a proposal, all in the late 1930s and the 1940s. How quickly we forget the upcoming Finno-Ugric Empire
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Sep 26, 2021 13:59
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Wiz posted:The plan is to have a lot of fun/weird formables and releasables but let you turn the blatantly ahistorical/weird ones off (or make player only) with a game rule. 
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Sep 26, 2021 15:49
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Wiz posted:The plan is to have a lot of fun/weird formables and releasables but let you turn the blatantly ahistorical/weird ones off (or make player only) with a game rule. Yeah, that's a great way to do it! Just like later CK2, where you could choose to toggle the Sunset Invasion and supernatural events, it's nice to give options to both the alt-history players and the historical simulationist players. Loving this bit of news!
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Sep 26, 2021 16:41
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DrSunshine posted:Yeah, that's a great way to do it! Just like later CK2, where you could choose to toggle the Sunset Invasion and supernatural events, it's nice to give options to both the alt-history players and the historical simulationist players. Loving this bit of news!
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Sep 26, 2021 17:07
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Would be interesting to have increasing costs to form more and more contrived formable nations.
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Sep 27, 2021 00:19
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War of the World's Invasion by the Tripods.
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Sep 27, 2021 00:57
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Orange Devil posted:Prior to German unification Austria was absolutely seen as part of "the German nation" and whether or not Austria would be part of the unification was a major issue in the timeperiod. But nowadays it's thought of as almost "natural" that Germany and Austria are separate nations with their own separate nationalism and "natural" homelands so to speak. "No Austria, you can't join Germany" was written into treaties after both world wars, so it's not like Austrians just naturally decided not to join.
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Sep 27, 2021 08:57
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