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OwlFancier posted:Which really just illustrates that the party structurally favours the right at every step, gently caress them, I'm sick of it. ah yes, left wing members leaving shifting votes rightwards is showing a structural favour to the right how? moreso for me gently caress trying to care about CLP politics during a pandemic over zoom. I can think of nothing more depressing or draining.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:11
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Because they're the only manky old fucks who get invited to meetings. It's just such a loving waste of effort to have all this useless bureaucracy to elect loving delegates who can go to a conference and pass resolutions that will get ignored whenever the leadership feels like it, exactly as corbyn did as well, and then you get some grotty loving lawyer or whatever parachuted in and you all have to go out and campaign for them like they're worth a drat.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:14
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what time was this
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Sep 27, 2021 09:19
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OwlFancier posted:Because they're the only manky old fucks who get invited to meetings. It's just such a loving waste of effort to have all this useless bureaucracy to elect loving delegates who can go to a conference and pass resolutions that will get ignored whenever the leadership feels like it, exactly as corbyn did as well, and then you get some grotty loving lawyer or whatever parachuted in and you all have to go out and campaign for them like they're worth a drat. More active CLPs are generally more left wing. It’s a classic right-wing manoeuvre to cancel as many CLP events as possible so that, you guessed it, the left get demoralised and stop participating. Then the weirdo right-wingers make sure to pop up fir the important meetings and make the correct votes. The right wing are actively trying to end or at least limit all the stuff you complain about above because all of that works against them.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:21
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xtothez posted:Looks like the centre-left / green parties just edged out the German elections too. The most likely coalition will involve the centre-left party being led by a guy (Scholz) from its conservative wing, in partnership with pro-business libs, and greens. It's anyone's guess how much concessions the Greens would be able to extract in that scenario, but they'd probably end up somewhere like "let's solve climate change with taxation", incrementally closer EU integration, and minor boosts to the welfare state/minimum wage/etc. So, better than a Starmer government, not as good as a coalition containing some tankies, very Germanic. Or else that falls apart and Merkel's party just keeps on running the show, but with a Green tint
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Sep 27, 2021 09:22
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You get nothing whether you participate or not, so they can have it, hopefully they kill us all starting with themselves first.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:26
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good morning
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Sep 27, 2021 09:37
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Comrade Fakename posted:150,000 left members left the party, and this is the result. This is also exactly what the Labour right wanted to happen. I share some of your bitterness about people quitting before the war was lost, but it should be pointed out that CLPs voted against MPs getting more nomination power but were outvoted because Unison turned. The fact is that members' power in the party is dwarfed by that of leadership patronage and the big unions - which most have the same problem as Labour, of being led by people with a vested interest in the status quo. The temporary ability of members to choose a leader was really the only thing giving them any clout. That is why I am finally leaving now. So are at least 3 other women I know, so next conference will be even worse. Sorry mate, but I think the Labour Party must be destroyed for progress to be possible.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:43
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Guavanaut posted:Seas of flags are a vivid image (though a bit lacking in books, guns, and garden tools for my taste), and I guess they did get the desired reaction, but I'm not convinced it's reflective of how much any of the wider left cares about that in specific, other than that when you wave flags you get sometimes get bulls. I do think you're forecasting a future UK left - Corbyn's political window was shaped very much by Iraq II, which sought someone with very particular views on foreign policy. He was really the man for the moment in a way e.g. McDonnell wasn't. But the next generation is going to be shaped by Brexit and so there will be a renewed domestic focus. What I struggle with is your pithily waving away the actual lived experience of the past six years, with Corbynism fighting to the death on an I/P hill and it's the centrists who are obsessed! This was actually the left's moment in party power, for the first time in decades - and it decided that austerity wasn't that important, Trident wasn't that important, NATO wasn't that important, the City wasn't that important, grammar schools could wait, Brexit could very definitely take a number - but I/P was that important to defend as sacrosanct high principle. When you wave flags you get bulls? Who was waving the flags then? 
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Sep 27, 2021 09:44
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Gotta say throwing Palestinians under a bus for expediency seems pretty poo poo tbh.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:58
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My actual lived experience of the past six years was more about nationalizing the utilities, establishing the common grounds trusts and national investment bank, bringing in universal basic services, and reversing austerity (in message even if that wasn't what was on paper). Internationally non-intervention was high on the list, but that was as much Corbyn agreeing with Farage that Saudis should not get a penny from Britain as it was condemning Israel, so I think a lot of the flag waving was just that.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:59
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Comrade Fakename posted:I can tell you from direct experience that the reason we had fewer left delegates this year is that many CLPs moved to the right in their AGMs this year, and so selected more right wing delegates for conference. The reason so many CLPs moved to the right is because so many left-wing members had left, a story we saw time and again. Labour are going to be to the right of UKIP on sinking boats of refugees in the Channel and you're going to come home from canvassing for Rachel Reeves to post that you'd not have to flail around Defending the Indefensible if those drat lefties hadn't left just like the right wanted. If every lefty left Labour to form a new party that didn't have a completely co-opted infrastructure. But never mind, you keep failing to learn from the failures of 2015-20, nobody else left in Labour has.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:01
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Oh dear me posted:I share some of your bitterness about people quitting before the war was lost, but it should be pointed out that CLPs voted against MPs getting more nomination power but were outvoted because Unison turned. This isn’t about bitterness, these are just statements of fact. A thing happened - lefties left the party - and then this is the result - the party moves to the right and passes rules to reinforce that. No doubt the unions tend to be poo poo and have a lot of power, but the ability we had to counter that is being lost. I’m not going to vociferously argue that you should stay but if you think that leftists should leave the party you shouldn’t also crow about how poo poo they are when the exact consequence of that happening plays out. E: This also applies to Forkboy’s post above.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:07
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I stayed and voted for every single thing you suggested, and it got me absolutely nowhere. At some point I am just sick of listening to people say "no we can still win this it's doable" when I am just throwing money I could spend on literally anything else away for no reason whatsoever.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:09
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xtothez posted:Looks like the centre-left / green parties just edged out the German elections too. Some. The more important things to take from the election are that the neoliberal Christian Democrats are on the slide without Merkel as their figurehead, support for AfD is crumbling, and Linke are bigger than the Lib Dems at their peak. Do you think it's too late to ask them to come over here and make us learn to speak German?
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Sep 27, 2021 10:09
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The idea that you can't criticise the Labour party if you get run out of it is more than a little insane
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Sep 27, 2021 10:10
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As the last few years have shown Labour cannot be changed or fixed, the sooner everyone accepts this and directs efforts elsewhere the better for the left of this country
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Sep 27, 2021 10:11
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Ah yes, because something failed once that means it will always fail again, and splintering into 100 new efforts will be more effective because ??? I've left the labour party, but I don't think Comrade Fakename is wrong in crowing out about it being poo poo when we just left it to be poo poo is a bit smug. A nomination threshold changed from 15% to 20%, woe betide us this is the death of us all. The problem is the lack of a candidate and will to challenge Starmer, not that some tweaking of the numbers has forever made the labour party hostile to the left. Especially after conference decided to piss off starmer by voting for energy nationalisation after Starmer walks back from it on live TV
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Sep 27, 2021 10:24
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Jel Shaker posted:what time was this Between 0630 and 0700. He was pretty good, provided some delicious dawn schadenfreude.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:26
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OwlFancier posted:Because they're the only manky old fucks who get invited to meetings. It's just such a loving waste of effort to have all this useless bureaucracy to elect loving delegates who can go to a conference and pass resolutions that will get ignored whenever the leadership feels like it, exactly as corbyn did as well, and then you get some grotty loving lawyer or whatever parachuted in and you all have to go out and campaign for them like they're worth a drat. I never not once got to go to a NE Derbyshire Labour meeting because the 6 old twats who organise everything deliberately hold them in some nice little Tory village on the edge of loving nowhere with no bus service to deliberately exclude the tens of thousands of council house labour voters in the area.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:27
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I find it very difficult to imagine that starmer's demonstrated ability to absolutely tank the labour vote and appoint whoever the gently caress he wants to run for seats is going to produce a desirable candidate or enough MPs who are not utterly worthless scum willing to nominate them in a leadership election.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:29
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Labour is dead stop propping it up let them have their tory-lite party that will never win. If that means splintering into 100 new efforts then at least it would be a start.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:33
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Feeling good about having left Labour and instead become a local rep for my workplace union.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:38
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ronya posted:What I struggle with is your pithily waving away the actual lived experience of the past six years, with Corbynism fighting to the death on an I/P hill and it's the centrists who are obsessed! This was actually the left's moment in party power, for the first time in decades - and it decided that austerity wasn't that important, Trident wasn't that important, NATO wasn't that important, the City wasn't that important, grammar schools could wait, Brexit could very definitely take a number - but I/P was that important to defend as sacrosanct high principle. When you wave flags you get bulls? Who was waving the flags then? I've done so many double takes at this that my skeleton is now facing the wrong way inside my skin.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:38
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Left wing foreign policy is extremely easy because it's basically just stop loving around where you don't belong so stop selling people guns, stop bombing people, and stop cosying up with the shittiest governments you can find. In terms of actual effort it requires nothing, because it's just stopping doing poo poo that the war psychos will literally tank their administrations over. The actual interesting part is domestic policy, that's the bit that where you need actual effort. You could accomplish left wing foreign policy by just bulldozing the MI6 building into the thames after locking half your own MPs inside it first.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:41
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Guavanaut posted:My actual lived experience of the past six years was more about nationalizing the utilities, establishing the common grounds trusts and national investment bank, bringing in universal basic services, and reversing austerity (in message even if that wasn't what was on paper. Which is why the next 6 years of politics will be different; they will be based on _those_ past experiences. Instead of the experiences of the _previous_ decade that led to the politics of that era. Once the interregnum is over and things start to coalesce again, I suspect it will be an interesting time.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:45
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Another week, another dose of schadenfreude. 
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Sep 27, 2021 10:49
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Just Another Lurker posted:Another week, another dose of schadenfreude. Is there a word for schadenfreude that causes you to suffer just as much as your enemies?
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Sep 27, 2021 10:52
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stev posted:Is there a word for schadenfreude that causes you to suffer just as much as your enemies? Brexit
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Sep 27, 2021 10:52
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Audio here https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1442405974468403200
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Sep 27, 2021 10:52
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Uh! H.. buh! I... Guh! Bluh! https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1442380463298027520 What a performance.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:53
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It's funny but I doubt union-member western European truck drivers are either who they're aiming to attract or who was working here before anyway.
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Sep 27, 2021 10:57
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stev posted:Is there a word for schadenfreude that causes you to suffer just as much as your enemies? Sorry, too busy laughing in Northern Ireland Protocol/Good Friday Agreement. 
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Sep 27, 2021 10:58
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sebzilla posted:Uh! H.. buh! I... Guh! Bluh! The Labour front bench contortions over trans rights are a demonstration of the exact corner they've all managed to paint themselves into on almost all policy over the last year. They want to appear supportive of trans rights because polling shows that lots of people support them and also because they're supposed to be the party of Raytheon Gay Pride floats, but also the right-wing press will crucify them for it and they'll get funny looks from people at dinner parties, so they just frantically chase their tails over multiple news cycles, desperately trying to find the magic combination of words that makes everyone like them. *This* is why they're not 20 points ahead; nobody trusts them on anything because they've heard so many contradictory positions. Note of course that morality or even basic empathy plays no part in any of this.
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Sep 27, 2021 11:02
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sebzilla posted:Uh! H.. buh! I... Guh! Bluh! "Is it homophobic to say that gay men have six wings; with twain they cover their face, and with twain they cover their feet, and with twain they fly?" Don't know, probably, but it's also wrong. Does it need more than that to be an incorrect statement?
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Sep 27, 2021 11:07
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If you're saying something potentially dangerous to trans men then aren't you, even possibly unwittingly, being transphobic?
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Sep 27, 2021 11:11
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"Women and trans women"
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Sep 27, 2021 11:13
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Guavanaut posted:It's medically inaccurate and potentially dangerous to trans men, cis men with PMDS, and many intersex people, is that not enough? Didn't peg you as a supporter of gaybashing, Guava? I mean, you just said those gay men were no angels.
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Sep 27, 2021 11:14
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ronya posted:What I struggle with is your pithily waving away the actual lived experience of the past six years, with Corbynism fighting to the death on an I/P hill and it's the centrists who are obsessed! This was actually the left's moment in party power, for the first time in decades - and it decided that austerity wasn't that important, Trident wasn't that important, NATO wasn't that important, the City wasn't that important, grammar schools could wait, Brexit could very definitely take a number - but I/P was that important to defend as sacrosanct high principle. When you wave flags you get bulls? Who was waving the flags then?
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Sep 27, 2021 11:15
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Jedit posted:Didn't peg you as a supporter of gaybashing, Guava? I mean, you just said those gay men were no angels. 
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Sep 27, 2021 11:15
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