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Venat's mind and memory may be swiss cheese just like Elidibus at this point.
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Sep 27, 2021 07:38
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FuturePastNow posted:Venat's mind and memory may be swiss cheese just like Elidibus at this point. Possibly, but it might be that his memory problems were due to being 'Elidibus the primal' rather than Zodiark's heart. Venat was a mature adult who knew what they were doing and never, to our knowledge, came back down like Elidibus did. And definitely didn't spend their time body-hopping and playing hero like Elidibus did. So it's possible they're just a lot more cohesive as an identity.
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Sep 27, 2021 08:00
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Funny thing would be Hydaelyn has just been treating us like the most recent in a long line of generic WoLs, and then we go "Hello Venat" and their reaction is just "Wait, how do you know that name?" Which then prompts her to take a closer look at our soul and then suddenly realise for the first time that we're the reincarnation of the "A pox on both your houses, I'm going to go fix poo poo with my friends" Convocation member, and we're going to fix this our way.
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Sep 27, 2021 08:13
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Cleretic posted:I'm not saying we aren't going to fight Hydaelyn somehow (although I think 'oh no Hydaelyn is bad' would be the single least inspiring direction they could take), but Venat and Hydaelyn have actually been more consistent than any other forces on their scale as being on our side and believing in us. there's more reasons for fights to happen than "actually im evil now" and that being your only go-to explanation betrays a lack of creativity on your part. all it'd take is a disagreement on how to handle the literal end of all existence, like hydaelin believing that another sundering is the best chance for life itself to continue, but the protagonists enjoying having souls, so you get a cool boss fight to convince her to believe in your way of doing things my final guess is still that both zodiark and hydaelin will join forces and/or sacrifice themselves to power you up to stop the cause of the final days, because the game is extremely unsubtle about the conflict between light and dark being stupid bullshit for idiot babies and that they need to just kiss and make up already
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Sep 27, 2021 12:53
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Only semi related but I think the thing under Silvertear Lake will end up being Hydaelyn's physical form of some sort. This is a to more wild crackpot theory that I hardly hold any weight in myself, but I wonder if this might go the Chains of Promathia route of (FFXI expansion spoilers) Hydaelyn's actions serving to save Zodiark somehow, much like how Altana split the mothercrystal and thus destroyed Paradise and created an imperfect world and mortal species to house Promathia's essence in order to prevent his complete death.. Also I was surprised to hear CoP's writer was the one in charge of 1.0's story.
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Sep 27, 2021 13:11
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I still believe e8 was basically their way of giving us a crystal mom fight without actually making us fight her. It'd be kinda weird to have a fight so heavily Hydaelyn themed and then have us fight her "For Reals" the next expac. IDK. Regardless of what happens I just don't see a full on fight in the cards anymore. (which is fine by me)
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Sep 27, 2021 13:13
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Same. I don't want to fight Crystal Mom. I don't really want to fight Zodiark either, tbh. (Although I think the Zodiark fight is going to come from Zenos devouring what's left of Zodiark and coming after us.) I think we're going to get juiced up by Hydaelyn (or Zodiark. Possibly both, after we deal with Zenos) and retrace Azem's steps and go after the source of the Noise.
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Sep 27, 2021 13:45
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But consider Zenos devouring Hydaelyn instead because he knows it will massively piss us off.
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Sep 27, 2021 13:50
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I am not sure whether this was discussed before somewhere, but why is there something that looks like a giant hole in the moon on EW logo?
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Sep 27, 2021 13:57
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a cartoon duck posted:the conflict between light and dark being stupid bullshit for idiot babies That would be relevant if that's why Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place. Too bad it was instead a mechanism to tell Emet-Selch "actually no, you don't get to do a genocide just because the new creatures don't look like you, you god-complexed megalomaniac".
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Sep 27, 2021 13:58
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Dwesa posted:I am not sure whether this was discussed before somewhere, but why is there something that looks like a giant hole in the moon on EW logo? that's where elidibus used to be
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Sep 27, 2021 14:01
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Kyrosiris posted:That would be relevant if that's why Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place. More the entire convocation and the ancients still following their rule and less ES personally but whatever helps sustain your rage erection.
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Sep 27, 2021 14:08
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Eimi posted:But consider Zenos devouring Hydaelyn instead because he knows it will massively piss us off. He wouldn't do it just to piss us off. He likes us! We are the only person he likes!
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Sep 27, 2021 14:18
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Kyrosiris posted:That would be relevant if that's why Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place. this assumes motives that aren't directly supported by what we know from the Hydaelin faction's own records Patch 5.2 Main Scenario Quest "Beneat the Surface" posted:Diplomatic Ancient One: three observations to be made here. first: the Hydaelin faction seems less concerned about the sanctity of life, and more concerned with the Zodiark plan only stopping the Final Days temporarily, instead wanting a more permanent solution. given we basically know Endwalker is gonna be about the final days they weren't wrong about that one second: Venat still refers to the Convocation with respect, so presumably she doesn't consider them turbo hitlers for the sacrifice plan, but still thinks they're making a mistake due to the first point third: Azem, who we're primed to empathise and agree with for the most part, is not affiliated with either the Convocation or the Hydaelin faction. there's a lot of room for twists in Endwalker here, but given we know from side stories that Azem is the type to build friendships and alliances to tackle problems head-on, so them spurning the Hydaelin faction suggests they disagreed with their plan pretty strongly
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Sep 27, 2021 14:24
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Dwesa posted:I am not sure whether this was discussed before somewhere, but why is there something that looks like a giant hole in the moon on EW logo? I honestly never saw a hole until that started getting more widespread. I still don't think it is one, instead just a big crater much like one our own Luna has. I double checked from the trailer where we see that side of the moon, but it just looked black in my phone in the few frames it was there. Maybe on something with better color balancing you'd be able to see something there.
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Sep 27, 2021 14:24
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a cartoon duck posted:this assumes motives that aren't directly supported by what we know from the Hydaelin faction's own records Double post, but there is also what we get from Hythlodaeus in 5.0. Even as potentially biased as they are by Emet-Selch (which I'm still not fully convinced they're biased enough to be wrong on most of what they say), they clearly say the Hydaelyn faction didn't agree with more sacrifice and believed it was time to let go and let the new life carry the Star.
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Sep 27, 2021 14:34
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Kazy posted:Only semi related but I think the thing under Silvertear Lake will end up being Hydaelyn's physical form of some sort. I think the most noteworthy thing about the 'what's under Silvertear Lake' mystery, and the thing that has to be considered a lot more than people actually do, is that it hasn't been mentioned a single time since A Realm Reborn launched. I'm serious about how important this is to consider. If this was something important they intended to pay off, they would have built it up. 'Hydaelyn is this mystery presence from 1.0 lore' would be a huge long-awaited reveal to turbonerds like us who actually retain knowledge of a dead game you can't play anymore, but remember we aren't exactly the core audience being written for. To that core audience that's not a long-dead mystery, that's not even a question they're asking, because 'what's under Silvertear Lake' has been a dead plot thread for likely much longer than they've been playing. The mystery has been dead ever since Yoshi-P took the reins of the game, and I think if he was interested in pursuing that, there would be setup, there would be reinstatement of the facts so that people can both learn them in the first place and trust they're still being adhered to. FFXIV trusts us to have a long memory, but 1.0 content still demands reminders. That doesn't mean the question of 'what's under Silvertear' can't be asked, it just means that it has to be answered with adherence to the knowledge that the question hasn't been asked since 1.0 shut down. So either that mystery was solved in-universe and we just weren't told, or the mystery just isn't earth-shakingly integral and is worth letting fall into the background that hard. Personally, I'm still of the mind that the thing under Silvertear was the Crystal Tower. We know that 1.0 planned to include the Crystal Tower in the future, after all--a few of its assets were found in 1.0's files. It likely would've been their first Big Endgame Raid Content, so they would've aimed to build it up with something like an ongoing mystery that leads to it. Which then explains why, come ARR, that mystery is nowhere to be seen. Suddenly the Unknown Thing Under Silvertear is now the Very Known Thing Over Silvertear, so the conversation has rather significantly changed. Or maybe what's under Silvertear is actually Gelmorra. That would explain everything about why the mystery about Silvertear suddenly vanished, it fell into the dark void of Yoshi-P's brutal marginalization of the Duskwight as a people.
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Sep 27, 2021 14:56
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Onean posted:Double post, but there is also what we get from Hythlodaeus in 5.0. Even as potentially biased as they are by Emet-Selch (which I'm still not fully convinced they're biased enough to be wrong on most of what they say), they clearly say the Hydaelyn faction didn't agree with more sacrifice and believed it was time to let go and let the new life carry the Star. i don't doubt they also disagreed with the whole plan to sacrifice new life to bring back the old, but the Hythlodaeus thing is a memory of a memory whereas the Anyder records are a primary source by the Hydaelin faction themselves, so the latter seems more indicative of their primary motivations to me. though the gap between Emet-Selch's memories of the Hydaelin faction through Hythlodaeus and the faction's own records does make me wonder if something funky was going on back then. going full crackpot theory for a moment, if Fandaniel went all "gently caress all life forever" early on enough, during or even before the Final Days, he might've controlled the flow of information to and from the Convocation so that no consensus can be found and the Final Days couldn't be conclusively stopped. being on the brink of another Final Days seems like a thing the unsundered would've cared about, at least
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Sep 27, 2021 15:02
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I don't think Azem was so much "a pox on both your houses" as Azem was "I'M GONNA FIGHT IT, POSSIBLY WITH THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP!" And then they bit off more than they could chew and got killed.
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Sep 27, 2021 16:43
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Jetrauben posted:I don't think Azem was so much "a pox on both your houses" as Azem was "I'M GONNA FIGHT IT, POSSIBLY WITH THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP!" Azem abdicated their position on the convocation, then refused to have anything to do with Venat's faction. I can't imagine that's not a very serious form of protest at the least.
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Sep 27, 2021 16:50
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Cleretic posted:I think the most noteworthy thing about the 'what's under Silvertear Lake' mystery, and the thing that has to be considered a lot more than people actually do, is that it hasn't been mentioned a single time since A Realm Reborn launched. True. I don't think it's explicitly stated, but I recall Midgardsormr mentioning protecting something. Also the entity that appeared to us at the end of 5.58 that is suspected to be Venat appeared to us on the shore of Silvertear.
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Sep 27, 2021 16:52
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Kazy posted:True. I don't think it's explicitly stated, but I recall Midgardsormr mentioning protecting something. Also the entity that appeared to us at the end of 5.58 that is suspected to be Venat appeared to us on the shore of Silvertear. Midgardsormr protecting the Crystal Tower makes some degree of sense if he's acting in Hydaelyn's defense. Like I said before: Hydaelyn can't do much to act herself to stop an immediately impending Calamity, or send Midgardsormr to do it, because doing that could cause a Calamity anyway. But the Battle of Silvertear was comfortably out of the Calamity Danger Zone, and if it was to keep the Garleans away from the Crystal Tower, that completely checks out. The Garleans are Ascian puppets, and the Crystal Tower is the only surefire Calamity-causer remaining on the planet at that time; it's vital to make sure the former never secures the latter. And as to seeing her at Silvertear... well, that doesn't really say anything, chiefly because the Scions are at Revenant's Toll. If you want to have a word with them, you have it there. It's actually the single least suspicious place she could have ever appeared because of that.
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Sep 27, 2021 17:06
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TheWorldsaStage posted:Azem abdicated their position on the convocation, then refused to have anything to do with Venat's faction. I can't imagine that's not a very serious form of protest at the least. I don't think they actually said that we refused to deal with them. They said we didn't answer. Which would happen if we had tried to JRPG Hero the end of the world without enough bros and got dunked on.
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Sep 27, 2021 17:24
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That would be an interesting fact to clarify in Endwalker actually, did Azem got done trying to defeat the source of the noise in the signature WoL way or were they fractured by Hydaelin before they got a shot?
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Sep 27, 2021 17:34
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Cleretic posted:Seriously, off the top of my head, out of all major plots in either the MSQ or major side-content questlines, it's actually shorter to list the ones that AREN'T currently known to have been set in motion by Secret Ascians: Depending on how you're counting "major plots" and "set in motion" there's also the Beast Tribes. Ascians have been teaching them how to summon primals and that leads to further complications, but the initial conflict is our own shittiness, at least for the Kobolds, Sahuagin and Amaljaa. The Sylph conflict feels tame compared to how heated those got, and the Ixal is "they want to harvest trees that would make the Elementals nuke us."
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Sep 27, 2021 18:07
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Isn't that just their general MO? Give power to lovely people who will abuse it then find the desperate people that creates to give them the tools they swear will save them. On and on until everything gets to a head and kaboom. I don't even think Emet-Selch was directly responsible for Black Rose? And in Eulmore they didn't do much more than give their mayor a way to become a king, then keep telling Vauthry what he wanted to hear - that he was special and better than everyone else.
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Sep 27, 2021 18:16
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Also complaining about the Acsians being behind most major issues in the game is really dumb becauae....They're the antagonists. That's the whole reason they exist. It's like getting mad ExDeath was behind all the major poo poo happening in FFV.
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Sep 27, 2021 18:18
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It also kinda misses that the people they manipulate are still largely responsible for their actions. The Garleans chose to follow Emet-Selch, they collectively chose to be basically the worst loving empire they could. Mhach chose to drop the green plague on Nym, Xande chose to be a conqueror, the Allagans chose to make Lalafell fish, Eulmore chose to be a highly stratified and indolent society. The Garleans aren't any less brutal or oppressive because there's an Ascian in the background cheering them on. edit: Hell if they were fully in control Thordan wouldn't have chowed down on Lahabrea
TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Sep 27, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2021 18:22
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TheWorldsaStage posted:Azem abdicated their position on the convocation, then refused to have anything to do with Venat's faction. I can't imagine that's not a very serious form of protest at the least. I just want to point out they didn't say she refused. They say she didn't reply. There are other reasons someone might not be able to communicate.
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Sep 27, 2021 18:30
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FuturePastNow posted:I just want to point out they didn't say she refused. They say she didn't reply. There are other reasons someone might not be able to communicate. Yeah the person I quoted said that too. Good point for sure, I didn't think about that.
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Sep 27, 2021 18:32
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Another thing is that we're all assuming "the defector" refers to Azem, and I think that's correct, but not using a name there gives the writer an out for a twist
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Sep 27, 2021 19:07
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FuturePastNow posted:Another thing is that we're all assuming "the defector" refers to Azem, and I think that's correct, but not using a name there gives the writer an out for a twist The name was the twist. You're directly told the defector didn't get a crystal like the others but Emet-Selch made one in secret and from the crystal is how you learn their name is Azem.
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Sep 27, 2021 19:08
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Is there a place that collected all the info on what happened in amourot and ascian history like the discussion here in a better format? Like a wiki article or reddit post? I played through it but barely understood it all.
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Sep 27, 2021 19:12
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FuturePastNow posted:I just want to point out they didn't say she refused. They say she didn't reply. There are other reasons someone might not be able to communicate. After all this discussion, I'm just imagining Azem punching his palm, immediately running off to stab Zodiark, and getting merked in the process.
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Sep 27, 2021 19:12
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Wacky Delly posted:After all this discussion, I'm just imagining Azem punching his palm, immediately running off to stab Zodiark, and getting merked in the process. Yeah, I'm hoping that when we finally find the source of the Sound where it's been buried in undying captivity, ideally not Zodiark, we have a Xenogears-esque moment of soul memory/inherited fear where we flash back to the last time we threw down with the fucker and couldn't finish the job. And then go "You killed me last time. Round 2, rear end in a top hat!" TGLT posted:It also kinda misses that the people they manipulate are still largely responsible for their actions. The Garleans chose to follow Emet-Selch, they collectively chose to be basically the worst loving empire they could. Mhach chose to drop the green plague on Nym, Xande chose to be a conqueror, the Allagans chose to make Lalafell fish, Eulmore chose to be a highly stratified and indolent society. The Garleans aren't any less brutal or oppressive because there's an Ascian in the background cheering them on. edit: Hell if they were fully in control Thordan wouldn't have chowed down on Lahabrea Yeah, it's kinda important to Emet and the Ascians - both internally in the sense of allowing them to live with themselves and even posture as fundamentally morally better than their cats'-paws, and externally in the sense of making them still people we can sorta empathize with and weep for - that they are not singularly responsible for evil. The Ascians enable catastrophe, typically by handing tremendous power and even prosperity to people in ways that will ultimately backfire. Hell, Emet seems to have consistently had idealistic phases where he genuinely tried to build healthier societies and then decided that they didn't deserve it and pushed the calamity button. The crew of the Prima Vista describe Solus' reign as a genuine golden age of art and culture; it's not accidental that it was Varis or the various colonial governors who get handed the very worst moral atrocities. They do not create human awfulness, and indeed many of their cats'-paws are morally far worse people than they are on an interpersonal scale. Garlemald is an imperial hegemon, but it didn't have to produce Valens, Valens chose to be that awful person himself. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 27, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2021 19:58
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Dwesa posted:I am not sure whether this was discussed before somewhere, but why is there something that looks like a giant hole in the moon on EW logo? I wouldn't be surprised that at some point Zodiark explodes out of the moon (or gets exploded out) and the moon chunks rain down on Hydaelin causing even more damage.
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Sep 27, 2021 20:02
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My guess is that the sound was not accidental and whatever caused it was likely also the source of the idea of creating Zodiark in the first place. Also, of course Emet-Selch's interpretation of the opposition is necessarily tainted. He is enthralled to Zodiark, afterall. Isn't the tempering of Lahabrea and Emet-Selch what kept them from being sundered in the first place?
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Sep 27, 2021 20:29
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Mr. Nice! posted:My guess is that the sound was not accidental and whatever caused it was likely also the source of the idea of creating Zodiark in the first place. No because the whole convocation was tempered because they all were part of the summoning. It wasn't just Elidibus Emet and Laha This idea is also kind of bad and seeks to take what little interesting there is about Big Z and take it away so we can neatly make him pure bad guy fodder again by trying his creation to the will of whatever alien other the noise was. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 27, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2021 20:32
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multijoe posted:That would be an interesting fact to clarify in Endwalker actually, did Azem got done trying to defeat the source of the noise in the signature WoL way or were they fractured by Hydaelin before they got a shot? I’m still fully expecting there to be a reveal of “Azem and a band of seven to twenty-three friends they met along the way were literally just about to solve the Sound and stop the end of days on their own, but were stopped at the worst possible moment by Zodiark’s summoning”
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Sep 27, 2021 20:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No because the whole convocation was tempered because they all were part of the summoning. It wasn't just Elidibus Emet and Laha I couldn't recall exactly why Emet and Lahabrea escaped the sundering. Elidibus is obvious. I don't mean to diminish Zodiark, but as far as we've really been given so far it has no personality or desire other than to consume more aether. Zodiark couldn't have been the source of the sound as it didn't exist yet. There is something deeper going on.
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Sep 27, 2021 20:42
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