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I've had deaf clients in my part of social services, we treat it the same as any other person who can't speak a language we have staff for. Relying fully on an unpaid, informal minor for this much interpretation would be very, very illegal for us. I'm pretty mad at the school and wondering what kind of scam is getting pulled that some people are operating on the belief this is an impressive, specialized institution.
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Sep 28, 2021 15:44
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Welcome to the jungle I’ve been running, Tulip. It’s all fun and HIPPA violations here.
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Sep 28, 2021 15:48
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:While I specifically don’t work in the deaf community, I have absolutely checked Misha’s general interpreting work with my aunts and grandmother-who work as teachers and interpreters in the deaf community. Judging by what characters have said about the school's purpose before, maybe having an interpreter 24/7 would be seen as hindering students ability to prepare for life outside the school (the school isn't necessarily a great place). Likely they do provide one when it's essential for the work, but prefer to do other accommodations when it comes to regular school work/life. But yeah, it's super uncomfortable having Misha basically take over Shizune's communication and not necessarily doing it accurately or in a way that's fair to her intentions. She's trying to be a friend and an interpreter at the same time and that really doesn't come across as healthy. But if she hasn't had any actual training or instruction it's understandable, if still not great. *I have no knowledge/experience in this area
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Sep 28, 2021 15:49
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The real reason why Misha is here, of course, is because they didn't want to have an adult character present for all of these conversations.
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Sep 28, 2021 15:54
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I don't think the devs were really all that concerned with presenting a realistic portrayal of that kind of schools (let alone how it's done in Japan), but my assumption is that Misha is enrolled in a full-time sign language class for her own education and she spends her free time being Shizune's interpreter because they're friends, and because Shizune would never accept to depend on anyone else.
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Sep 28, 2021 22:24
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Is Misha an official translator or is she just Shizune's close friend who translates for her?
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Sep 28, 2021 22:26
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I always figured the two were friends and either met after Misha learned sign language or they've known each other a long time and she learned to benefit their relationship. That and I doubt Shizune would put up with having an adult interpreter. She wouldn't be able to exert her will quite as effectively.
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Sep 28, 2021 22:33
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While this route will probably go into it, it does seem that Misha is Shizunes unofficial interpreter as a good friend. Have you never run into the teenage girls who are so close friends to be inseparable? That's how the two seem. Interestingly, the orginal design document they were working off (the one page thing in the OP) "only" makes the character who becomes Shizune deaf- the muteness is an intentional later addition. But either way, you have to shoehorn in a deaf character who is a class rep somehow, in a way the player can interact with them. No room for professional adult inteperators there.
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Sep 28, 2021 22:58
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Space Kablooey posted:I wouldn't go as far as calling them bullies, but having them taking Hisao out for lunch, stalling for time until they have some "dirt" on him for the skipping class thing, and then using it to make him help out on their stuff is the kinda of thing that would leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth, had it been me. Unless I had already decided to help them out and just went with the flow. Idk. I just did this route a few days ago and at no point did I get the impression that 'stalling for time until they have an excuse" was anything more than a post-facto joke.
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Sep 29, 2021 02:32
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Yeah, people are being a bit harsh on both Shizune and Misha here, IMO.
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Sep 29, 2021 02:51
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Worth noting, as wonderful as it is seeing all the  blimp up the thread’s post count, most of you still have a chance to vote on whether you want updates to go up mornings, midday, afternoons, or evenings CST.raifield posted:I always figured the two were friends and either met after Misha learned sign language or they've known each other a long time and she learned to benefit their relationship. One thing that comes to mind is that, in some circumstances at least, it’s possible for someone to refuse accommodations if offered. Maybe things would be different if she was still a minor, but Shizune and Misha are both canonically 18, legally adults. Would that give Shizune the ability to tell a school-provided interpreter to get bent and work with Misha instead? It’d be a bad idea and one riddled with landmines, but I can totally see her talking that option if available.
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Sep 29, 2021 04:01
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Captain Oblivious posted:Idk. I just did this route a few days ago and at no point did I get the impression that 'stalling for time until they have an excuse" was anything more than a post-facto joke. I just can't tell whether it's one or the other, TBH. 
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Sep 29, 2021 04:19
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Having a student interpret for another student in classrooms is 100% not acceptable in real life. However, I don't think we've ever seen Misha interpret DURING class time? So far iirc every time Misha has spoken for Shizune, it's been in social situations, or doing some kind of group work in class. That's a different scenario altogether.
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Sep 29, 2021 04:56
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 e: I made an emoji of Shizune saying "..." and Misha translating (adding? replying?) "Get hosed~" megane fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 29, 2021 |
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Sep 29, 2021 05:26
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lol
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Sep 29, 2021 05:27
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Sep 29, 2021 05:28
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I suspect that it's just another case of "para-pros don't exist." Whether this was due to the writers not knowing enough, not wanting to create/write in more characters who don't directly affect the story, or that having adults around would be inconvenient, I don't know. Is there anyone from 4LS who could answer that? I think Shizune can read lips, but it never says for certain. And that's not a perfect method, either. I am entirely indifferent as to when things update; I read them at random times, anyways.
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Sep 29, 2021 05:40
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Zurai posted:Yeah, people are being a bit harsh on both Shizune and Misha here, IMO. If there's one thing goons don't like it's assertive women, right? 
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Sep 29, 2021 05:43
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Falconier111 posted:Worth noting, as wonderful as it is seeing all the I'm in Australia so for me the updates have always turned up at some point overnight... which is fine. Whatever's easiest! Haha, nice. 
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Sep 29, 2021 06:29
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Falconier111 posted:Worth noting, as wonderful as it is seeing all the When it comes to posting updates, when they go up rarely matters to the viewer. So I say whichever time will be easiest for you and will allow for the most consistent updates without causing you undue stress.
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Sep 29, 2021 14:08
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Guess who has a debit card, poor impulse control, and some disposable income right now? is now an official SA smilie. Megane, could you add a brief description of the smilie to your post for people who have trouble seeing it so I can link it in the OP? Update 61: Proof of Competency  Now we’re off to Update 12, specifically the Lilly-Shizune showdown. By the way, when the Nurse asked us to exercise this time, we said yes. You can actually access Shizune’s either way, but going this way lets us access to more Shizune content… As questionable a choice as that may be. (Silence) The air between them ripples with the heat of their enmity. Well, not really. They can't disguise it any more, though. Even Misha looks like she's beginning to understand the real nature of this conversation.  SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "Hicchan~! Don't you slack off either~!"  HISAO: "What are you talking about?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Aren't you taking part in the festival, Hicchan? You are, aren't you? Then~! I hope you're going to do a lot more to make sure it goes smoothly than this person~!"  I don't understand why Shizune is suddenly getting mad at me. >Don't drag me into this! I've done my part! >Hey, come on. Cut me and Lilly some slack... Nothing for it, time to take the road less traveled. =>Don't drag me into this! I've done my part! HISAO: "Why am I being dragged into this, again? I've done more than enough, I think. If you're angry with Lilly, that has nothing to do with me."  LILLY: "Now, wait just a second... are you implying the president is more right in scolding me than yourself?" Ah drat, I think I could've worded that better. HISAO: "No, I don't know about that but... I mean..." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "What are you saying, Hicchan?" HISAO: "It's just that I hardly think it's fair you can say that, seeing that I've helped you guys." The mood has changed. This is like a showdown between two gunfighters now. Well, it was like that before too, but this time Shizune's focus is on me. And so is Lilly's, though she keeps quiet. I'm afraid I inadvertently pissed her off. SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "Are you saying I'm wrong?" What a dangerous situation. HISAO: "It's too early to argue with you. ...Yes, I think it's unfair of you to get on my case." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hicchan, you want too much~! But~! You have a point. Okay, okay okay~! You're not lazy, Hicchan. Hahaha~!" Shizune pushes her glasses up with her thumb, almost approvingly. SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "That's good! If you're not useless, you shouldn't let anyone say you are~! But the next time I say it, it'll really be because you are disappointing me like Miss Class Rep here, so don't let this go to your head!" Lilly takes the jab silently, a venomous visage frozen on her face. MISHA: "Class rep~! Shicchan says: “Don't forget that report, please~!”" LILLY: "I won't. Would that be all?" MISHA: "Yup~!" LILLY: "Then, good day to you all." Her voice would cut the air of the classroom into half, if it was more tangible. Lilly leaves the room, understandably in a bad mood but still managing to be as poised and calm as usual. HISAO: "Shizune, you really did go a little too far today." MISHA: "It's true, Shicchan, just a little~." If I had been expecting Shizune to grudgingly admit I have a point there as well, I think I was expecting too much. She doesn't respond. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hahaha~! Shicchan thinks you should mind your own business. Hicchan, we have a few last minute things to take care of before class~! We might be late, so~! Can you please cover for us?" HISAO: "Yeah." MISHA: "Perfect~! Yay~! Okay~! Thanks, Hicchan!" They walk outside even though there are only ten minutes left before the bell will ring, signaling the start of class. If we spent time with Hanako and Lilly earlier, Hisao takes this chance to shoot a barbed comment at Shizune, to Lilly’s pleasure. That doesn’t salvage your chances with her or Hanako, however, and we didn’t do that anyway. Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight  Hanako doesn't come to the morning class at all, leaving her seat looking empty and lonely in the back of the classroom. I have to tell her that Lilly was looking for her if I see her later. After the events of this morning, class is pretty boring in comparison. I turn the pages of my textbook lazily. We've been covering the same amount of pages each day, so reading ahead is more or less giving myself a preview of what tomorrow's lesson will be about. The clock at the front of the room sounds unbearably loud. The teacher hasn't said anything in over seven minutes, instead opting to cover the board in rows and rows of equations taken directly from the book. The rhythmic clashing of chalk on blackboard seems to synchronize perfectly with the ticking of the clock.  I start to copy down the equations just to pass the time, not noticing Misha's head poking over my shoulder until she is almost on top of me. HISAO: "What are you doing?" I try to strike a balance between being quiet enough to not draw attention to myself but loud enough to draw hers. MISHA: "What are you doing, Hicchan~?" Panic shoots through me as Misha starts talking at her normal volume, and I sputter out a hasty reply, still keeping my voice down despite the fact that she just blew any hope of being discreet I may have had. HISAO: "I'm copying down that stuff, what are you doing? Why so loud?" MISHA: "Aw~, really? But it's all in the book... That's why no one else is copying it down~!" HISAO: "I know, why are you so loud?" MISHA: "Why are you so quiet, Hicchan? It's hard to hear you." I look around to see if anyone is noticing our conversation and it's pretty obvious that everyone has, even the teacher. Shizune smiles coyly and I start to wonder if Misha is doing this because she told her to. Is it because of what happened between her and Lilly earlier? This is what I get for trying to be reasonable? For trying to take the middle path? Shizune is way too prideful, although by now I should know to expect that kind of behavior from her. HISAO: "Why are you doing this?" MISHA: "Huh?" Misha is totally oblivious to the awkward stare the teacher is giving both of us, while trying to balance her textbook on one finger. For a brief second it looks as if things could get ugly, but the teacher simply looks away, as if it's not worth the trouble. I guess this is a good thing, and I slump back in my seat in relief. The rest of day passes by uneventfully, and this time I'm able to appreciate that it does. When the bell rings, I'm not in a hurry, so I stay for a while, reviewing what we covered in class today. I prefer to leave last anyway, so I don't have to deal with crowding in the hallways. I notice Shizune and Misha have also stayed behind, talking to someone from another class. Shizune's signing so fast that her hands make noises like swords cutting through the air. Misha is trying desperately to keep up, but it's clear she can barely manage to even understand her. I put my head down. Whatever they're discussing, it looks like serious business. Probably way over my head. Not just that, but Shizune also seems angry, although it could just be her normal severity making it appear so. Shizune signs to the point where her wrists crackle, and Misha struggles to spit it out in word form. Sometimes she trips over herself like she's dealing with tongue twisters. And then on top of that, she has to sign back anything the other girl says. Seems like a rough job. Misha looks tired, like she's about to faint. Luckily for her, their business is soon finished and the girls sit down on their seats again. MISHA: "Uwaaah! I'm so tired!" She's hanging her head limply on her desk, looking exhausted. HISAO: "Festival preparations must be tough for you." Indeed, the people in this school seem to be taking the festival very seriously. Whenever I see people idling around before and after classes they're always talking about their plans for it. It's kind of neat to see everyone being so enthusiastic about it. I'm probably the only one who doesn't have something to do. Shizune starts signing at me and Misha perks up, looking at her hands with slightly unfocused eyes. SHIZUNE: "..." She signs with harsh, heavy, dramatic strokes. Misha translates her signing into speech for me. She does it so well it's almost like Shizune is actually speaking, transmitting her thoughts directly through Misha. MISHA: "Well, we're in the Student Council, you know, so we're pretty busy." HISAO: "Sarcasm?" MISHA: "Huh?" The tone of Shizune's actions make me think she is “speaking” with disdain, but Misha interprets it normally, replacing whatever intent may have been there with her own chipper twist on things. It's still disorienting, I don't think I'll ever get used to it. HISAO: "Never mind. How could I forget, with you two trying to get me to join at least twice a day?" MISHA: "Hahaha~! But, Hicchan, some could say the work is too much. It'd be nice if students were to show a little more support for their leadership, some appreciation to the ones who are working so hard to make it all possible. Maybe, for example, a little help. That's asking too much, is it? Yep~! Help would be appreciated~! From students like you~! If students would show their dedication and school spirit, and offer some help, well, I don't exactly need it... But I wouldn't necessarily refuse it... So~! it would be nice if someone would...” (Sudden Silence)  MISHA: “Oh? Hello~!" Katawa Shoujo OST - Stride  I look over my shoulder and see Hanako peering timidly into the classroom, most of her body hidden behind the door. MISHA: "Hey! Playing delinquent again?" Hanako blushes hard at Misha's straightforward jab, even if it was only in jest. SHIZUNE: "..." Shizune stares at her probingly, causing Hanako to look down and start backing away to the point where only her fingers can be seen wrapped nervously around the edge of the door. Maybe she is showing her dislike of Hanako by association of her dislike of Lilly. It appears so, and Hanako probably knows it as well. They seem to have momentarily forgotten about trying to get me to stay for the rest of the day. HISAO: "What is it, Hanako?"  HANAKO: "H... has Lilly been here?" MISHA: "Sorry, Satou is not here. She, eh, came by in the morning though." Hanako keeps looking uneasily at Shizune, who stares back at her with her usual studying gaze. What is she trying to do? Of course Shizune isn't going to look away, and she is intimidating enough as it is, so I can only imagine how terrified Hanako would be. It is a little funny though, watching Hanako's reaction to Shizune's normal behavior. This is what happens when two people of two different extremes meet, it seems. HANAKO: "Do... do you know where she is?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "If she has any sense in her head, she's in her classroom, working on their festival project. But who knows where that woman is loitering at. She might be slacking off somewhere~! What a useless woman~!" Hanako nods quickly and retreats with haste, obviously to avoid any further contact with Shizune. Unfortunately, this turns their attention fully back to me. MISHA: "But Hicchan is not useless, right? Right? He said so himself~! Wahaha~!" I can see where this is going, and I do not want any part of it, not after that experience yesterday." HISAO: "Well, good luck with your preparations..." I start packing my bag, ready to make a break for the exit. Unfortunately I'm all the way on the other side of the room. The short distance to the doorway seems like a vast No Man's Land to me now. Katawa Shoujo OST - School Days Shizune and Misha both start maneuvering slowly in front of me, cutting off my route of escape in an unsettlingly cautious way that makes me think of ship-to-ship combat. MISHA: "I think Shicchan is saying that you should help us, Hicchan~!" HISAO: "Gee, I wouldn't know, she's so subtle." MISHA: "But~! that's the intent, so, please? I can't keep up, we have to actually build stalls for the festival, almost all of them all by ourselves, can you believe that? Hammering boards together, over and over again, for hours, it's really hard! I'm so used to it I was doing swinging motions in class, and I didn't even know it!" She bangs her desk a few times, imitating hammer blows. MISHA: "It's so repetitive, I can't stand it! And yesterday, I actually hammered all the boards on top of each other... It was just a stack of boards all nailed together, and then I had to take it apart and do it all over again, and I got yelled at and laughed at~!" HISAO: "Uh..." MISHA: "So..." She clamps a hand down on my shoulder and grins, quickly running her tongue across her teeth mischievously. MISHA: "Do you have any plans for today, Hicchan? I wonder if you do~." HISAO: "Sure I have plans..." MISHA: "Really~? You're going to help us, right?" I notice her hands are moving constantly. She's signing everything we both say so that Shizune can understand. Shizune is being somewhat quiet today. Is she still angry? Well, probably at least a bit. I can see it in her eyes. But, this could also just be another way of trying to guilt me into lending her a hand. I have to find a way out of this. HISAO: "Hey, I should go now, to the library. You know, homework... I should get going, shouldn't I? I have to be diligent, because I'm a new student, and all, so I have to make a good first impression, right? Yeah... See you later, then!" I turn to bolt for the door, but Shizune is blocking my path, her arms crossed over her chest and a stern expression on her face. She wags a finger tauntingly and begins signing to Misha with the manner of a squad leader giving directions to his fellow soldiers. MISHA: "It didn't seem like you were in any rush to get to the library, Hicchan~! That's right, Shicchan~, it does seem like he was probably going to slack off for the rest of the day. Hahaha~! Wahaha~! You're surrounded~!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Let's go to the student council room~!" She lets out a chuckle, and then breaks into laughter. MISHA: "I'm sorry, Hicchan, I feel bad, but this works out for everyone, right?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "That's right, Shicchan! Yes~, that's a good point too." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Yes, this is beneficial to everyone, it solves all our problems." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Yeah yeah~!, I also thought he'd be more appreciative of our efforts." They pull themselves closer, as if they are about to pounce. HISAO: "Hey guys, two-on-one isn't very fair, is it?" SHIZUNE: "..." She keeps looking forward, impassive, then gives a sinister smile. MISHA: "Come on, we have a lot of work to do! Let's go to the student council room~!" HISAO: "Gee, I don't know..." Misha laughs. MISHA: "Deja vu~?" She chortles, before letting out another laugh. MISHA: "Hahaha, you know, my horoscope said it'd be a good day for me today. And now that you're going to help—" Shizune signs quickly to her. MISHA: "Right~!, I mean, now that you've decided to help us, completely of your own free will, I'll be able to take it easy! Lucky~, huh?" I open my mouth to say something but then realize there's no point. I refocus on trying to think of a way out of this. No, their actions are clearly deliberate, there's no sense in attempting to reason with them. You can't reason with madmen. I frown, and they don't even notice my discontent, further proving my suspicions. They seem pretty relaxed now. I guess they think they've already won, so they're letting their guard down. That's kind of arrogant. (Silence) They pass forward in front of me as they move through the doorway... And I stealthily walk backwards back into the classroom as they step into the hallway, turning towards the stairwell. I let out a sigh of relief and quickly pack the rest of my stuff so I can make my escape. Katawa Shoujo OST - Hokabi The classroom door slams shut. SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "That wasn't very nice, there. Hahaha, you really got us good, though. Didn't he, Shicchan?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Right, right... ...Hahaha! What was that about? I thought you said you'd help us! And then you bailed on us! And you thought you would get away with it, didn't you?" The indignant expression vanishes and she begins to laugh hysterically, calming down only after an aggravated look from Shizune. MISHA: "Oh, ah... Yeah~, you thought you could get away with it! But, a criminal always returns to the scene of the crime!" I didn't even manage to leave the classroom in the first place. No, wait, I didn't even agree to help in the first place. MISHA: "Not very bright, are you, criminal? Thinking you can just shirk your duties like that... How low, Hicchan~!" HISAO: "I'm a criminal? What did I do? What's the charge? What am I guilty of?" MISHA: "That's for the courts to decide, criminal! I don't think we have to tell you that! Besides, you're the criminal here, you know what you did!" HISAO: "Have you ever read “The Trial,” by Kafka?" MISHA: "No, what's that, Hicchan~? What does that have to do with this?" HISAO: "I read it a few months ago. It's about these people who run a kangaroo court on a guy who just wants to live his life. They refuse to leave him alone, and he can't fight the power." SHIZUNE: "... ..." MISHA: "Hicchan, what does that have to do with anything? Hey~!, what does that mean?" She turns back to me after signing back and forth for a lengthy amount of time. MISHA: "You know, we're both a little disappointed in you. You've let us down, Hisao." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Dropped the ball." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Left us hanging. And out in the cold~." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Is that any way to treat a person? To run away from your responsibilities, to abandon your comrades? We think you owe it to us to honor your commitment." HISAO: "What? But I didn't commit to anything~!" My breathing catches in my throat and I momentarily start choking. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "That's not true, Hicchan! You said you are not useless, you definitely said it, yes, definitely, definitely definitely~! We are calling you on those words now~! You better prepare to show you are not a useless guy! Your honor will be soiled forever if you try to get out of this~! So for the rest of the day, we are going to hang out together, just the three of us, and work hard!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "You can't fool us! You should be happy, you're doing your school a great service. Ask not what your school can do for you... But what you can do for your school! Hahaha! Hahahahahahaha!" How depressing. MISHA: "Cheer up, cheer up, Hicchan!" She slaps me hard across the back with enough strength to knock the air out of my lungs. I gasp to breathe. MISHA: "Besides, aren't you happy you get to spend the day with two cute girls? Hahahaha!" I guess they are right. I did blurt those words out. (Silence) Accepting my fate, I follow them to the student council room... Katawa Shoujo OST - Afternoon ...And hammer the final nail into the stall. It took all of the afternoon, and dinner time is nearly over. But it is done now. Shizune pulls out a roll of measuring tape and a small level, and inspects it thoroughly. She smiles, looking pleased, then motions for Misha to come over. SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "She says you did a very good job. In fact, you might actually have a gift for this. Wow, I'm impressed, too. And that was fast, have you done this before?" HISAO: "No. Never. Never before. And I never will again." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Well, our quota for the day is six stalls. In a few minutes, me and Shicchan should finish this one. That means~... four more to go! We're making good time, she says~! Isn't this great fun?" HISAO: "What?" I could think of a million things I'd rather do, but I suppose everyone has to do their share for the festival, even me. HISAO: "You're both lucky that I'm helping you two out, if I really didn't want to, I could have gotten out of it easily." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Really, Hicchan?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Wahaha~! Shicchan thinks you are just running your mouth! Japanese people have no flight or fight reflex, Hicchan~!" Shizune tents her fingers deviously. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Definitely~! Definitely, definitely~! If you really wanted to escape, you would have taken immediate action~! That is how you know someone is serious; when they have no doubts, no regrets!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Maybe it was a bad idea to tell you that, since now Hicchan knows what to do next time~." But, just the fact that she is all right with telling me this shows me that she doubts I'll be able to act on it. That only makes me want to do it more, and I almost want the opportunity to do so to arise again. But if that happens, she might get me again somehow. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Shicchan says she is happy now." Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles  Much, much later in the evening, we are looking at six completed stalls. With the pride of a job well done, we sit back and admire the fruits of our labor, not sharing a word between us. Just admiring. I realize I'm feeling quite thirsty. HISAO: "Hey, isn't there a vending machine out in the hall? They're on all day, right?" MISHA: "Yeah, the drinks are very cheap, too. We usually get something from there on days like this." I dig around in my pocket, and find a single hundred yen coin. HISAO: "Is this enough? I'm feeling kind of thirsty." MISHA: "A hundred yen? You can get any drink in the machine with that." HISAO: "That's good, that's very good, then." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Ah, wait a second. Hm? What is it, Shicchan? Do you want him to get you a drink too? Hahaha!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hicchan, you've really helped us out, so today I - I mean Shicchan, will treat you. Hey, what about me?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "What would you like? I'm feeling thirsty myself? So am I!" HISAO: "Hm, I don't know. Anything's fine. I guess the melon soda." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hey, wait, Shicchan! I also want a drink! Aw...! You know, it's times like this that I think she is just teasing me." HISAO: "That's probably it. I'm sure she'll get you something, right?" MISHA: "Yeah, she usually does. But... you never know..." HISAO: "Heh." Shizune comes back with two melon sodas and a can of fruit juice. She hands me one of the sodas, and the other to Misha. MISHA: "Thanks, Shicchan~! I had total faith that you'd get me one, I knew I could count on you! Wahahaha! But how did you know this was what I wanted? I usually get something else." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "What? You knew I'd want to try it? And that I like these kinds of childish things? Hahahaha! Hahahaha!" I gesture my thanks to Shizune, who smiles and nods. SHIZUNE: "..." (Silence) MISHA: "Hey, Hicchan..." HISAO: "Yes?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "We've been spending a lot of time together. Already, in such a short time, we've done so much. We should both stop beating around the bush. What I'm trying to say is," It sounds a lot like she's going to ask me out, but that can't be it. Nevertheless, my heart is beating like a jackhammer. drat, this reminds me of another similar scene earlier this year. I try to say something, but my brains can't decide whether to stop her or to tell her to continue. I feel myself blushing all the way to the ears. SHIZUNE: "..." Katawa Shoujo OST - Ease MISHA: "What I'm trying to say is... Would you like to join the Student Council?" HISAO: "Ah, what a disappointment." MISHA: "Hahaha! Hahahaha! Hahahahaha! Wahaha! Hahahaha! Did you think she wanted to ask you out, Hicchan? Hahahaha! Hahaha! Hahaha! Hahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!" I feel very embarrassed right now, I can feel myself getting even redder in the face. Shizune also tries to hide a blush after Misha translates, and then puts a few sheets of paper in front of me. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "So, how about it? All the paperwork is right here. And you are sitting down, anyway. You look very at home here. Drinks and everything~!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "What do you say?" She quiets down a little and asks again a little more solemnly. MISHA: "Hicchan, what do you say? You don't exactly hate this, right?"  I'm more than a little surprised by this sudden change of tone. I don't really know how to react to it. For one thing, she isn't shouting uproariously with no regard for tact. Before, I'm sure she knew already that I was going to say no. This time, she seems actually serious. MISHA: "I think maybe you should join. Not just because we could use your help, but, well, you're hanging out with us anyway. I think Shicchan would like it if you would join as well. It's not like you hate us or anything, right? It wouldn't hurt if you joined. And I'd appreciate it if you would." She seems to be having a hard time getting her words out, which is strange for someone talkative like Misha. For some reason, I'm almost troubled by it. My eyes drift over to Shizune, who stares back at me tentatively, absentmindedly cleaning her fingernails. MISHA: "If you don't want to join, I promise we won't ask again, but if you did, we would be really happy."  Both Shizune and Misha seem to be unable to look me in the eye. I can't lie, the thought of being around two such cute girls is something that I couldn't possibly pass up. I'm not looking forward to this kind of work every day, but there should be less after the festival. At least, I hope so. HISAO: "All right. I guess it can't hurt, so, why not?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Wonderful. Wonderful! Ahahaha~!" Shizune tents her fingers in satisfaction. SHIZUNE: "..."  MISHA: "She'll fill everything out, Hicchan. Congratulations, you are officially a member of the Student Council now!" Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Sep 29, 2021 |
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Sep 29, 2021 15:20
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Okay, that's definitely overbearing. I can understand the negative opinions.
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Sep 29, 2021 15:59
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Falconier111 posted:I’ve heard it said that a tsundere in anime is an abuser in real life, and while that’s kind of an extreme position I think there’s something to it. It’s barely spoilers to say that dichotomy won’t be going away and I think it’s part of why so many people dislike this route. Omniphile posted:If there's one thing goons don't like it's assertive women, right? This isn't assertiveness, this is abuse. I honestly think this update might've needed a trigger warning on it. Jesus christ. When someone wants to get away from you badly enough they lock themselves inside a room, that is not a joke and it isn't funny. I think if it weren't for the absurdist framing here of being about 'student council' of all things, or if the genders were changed around, people might have an easier time recognising how awful it is that they're incapable of taking no for an answer. (warning: sexual assault)(I'm flashing back to the time I was sexually assaulted by a woman, in public, and laughed at by not only her but also all the witnesses present because they couldn't believe I wanted it to stop. This kind of laughter and denial can be just as traumatic, sometimes even more so, than the event itself.) I don't think the fact of there being two of them helps here, either. With the way this is written, I'm having a hard time telling when Misha is speaking for herself versus when she's speaking for Shizune, and Hisao's already noted a tonal mismatch so I'm not even clear whether Misha is accurately translating. (Which makes me a bit worried for Shizune, honestly.) Yet there being two of them, in presumed agreement (whether or not they actually are, given we don't actually know what Shizune is saying), creates a dynamic where whoever they're browbeating is outnumbered. I get the impression they know that creates a power differential and enjoy taking advantage of it. Maybe things improve later, maybe they reflect on this behaviour and learn better or something (or maybe there's something else going on and this isn't typical behaviour for them), but I'm definitely not feeling optimistic right now.
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Sep 29, 2021 17:31
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I'd not go that far, but this update certainly had a less playful aura to it than the others and made me dislike her/Misha more. That's I guess.
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Sep 29, 2021 17:34
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I'm honestly impressed Hisao didn't have a panic attack, that would have set me off on one. It's reminding me about a few friends I had as a kid, we do not talk now. That is very fine.
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Sep 29, 2021 18:02
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Omniphile posted:If there's one thing goons don't like it's assertive women, right? Right, because this last update doesn’t already kinda dig a hole for Shizune and Misha, huh? As was said before: the first issue is that Misha’s overbearing personality may be misinterpreting everything that Shizune says. Which doesn’t help that social situation. But on top of that, Shizune’s own overbearing personality-no matter if she wants assertion on behalf of those who work for her or not-also makes it difficult for her to engage fairly with people and with empathy. Assertiveness would be to work harder and engage with people in a way that doesn’t push them away-make them feel like part of a team, not to insist and cajole. This is very much, “I’m the boss and you’re nothing. You should do whatever I say, and I’ll make your life hell if you don’t.” It’s a good thing that Hisao has a snarky sense of humor, or else I’d feel like this is more agency theft than it actually is. One wonders if this is why they don’t have many takers for the Student Council….but this behavior should have drawn staff to have a talk with the Council. Like, this behavior-like most highly-intense, highly-manipulative behaviors in anime-is not okay and a bit cringy to watch. Is that the whole point of the route? Possibly-perhaps this one isn’t a “Hisao made a huge social fauxpas in the realm of disabilities.” shtick like the last two.
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Sep 29, 2021 19:07
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Falconier111 posted:Maybe things would be different if she was still a minor, but Shizune and Misha are both canonically 18, legally adults. Not quite, actually! The age of majority in Japan is 20, so Shizune's age has no bearing on her ability to refuse an interpreter, one way or the other. I never saw anyone try to do that, but I strongly suspect it wouldn't fly. But in this fictional context, it probably is just that it's less awkward to have another teen around than an adult.
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Sep 29, 2021 19:15
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Nothingtoseehere posted:I'd not go that far, but this update certainly had a less playful aura to it than the others and made me dislike her/Misha more. That's Eh, abuse is pretty close to the mark, I'd argue. This is going way beyond just asking someone for help; they're very much browbeating Hisao into helping them. They're also casually insulting him, Lily, and Hanako in this update, and it's very heavily implied that they're doing that to more or less everyone in an effort to make people work harder. It's compounded even further when you realize that some people literally cannot stand up to them, whether because they're in therapy for trauma, or because they have physiological reasons to not be able to get that heated in an argument. I very much understand why people dislike Shizune now. Holy poo poo was that taken way too far. I'm slightly shocked that she is allowed any position of authority by the school, as it's not exactly like the staff are unaware of the bullshit she's pulling.
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Sep 29, 2021 19:19
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It's going to be interesting to see how this route goes. I'm morbidly curious how awful Shizune and Misha are.
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Sep 29, 2021 20:54
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I don't feel like hisao was very clear in saying no anyways. He's been hanging out with them literally every day and hasn't complained about them 'trapping' him into doing stuff before. I know they're a little overbearing but part of that is the chaos mode nature of Misha I think. SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Sep 29, 2021 |
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Sep 29, 2021 21:06
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Breaking my own rule against spoilers here for clarity and because honestly I could see myself balking from the LP as I read it, skip to the next post if you want to avoid them. Not only does the route not portray this behavior as a good or healthy, the issues that drive it in both girls become a major source of pathos later on. The won’t last forever, and it also never intensifies to the point that Hisao feels genuinely threatened. The route alsodoesn’t take that behavior as seriously as it should, playing it for laughs sometimes or excusing motivations away even as it acknowledges the negative consequences. So, take that as it is.
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Sep 29, 2021 21:26
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It may also be worth pointing out how, at one point, Hisao's description of how he's feeling makes it seem like he was actually getting close to his heart condition getting set off just from the stress of dealing with Shizune and Misha.
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Sep 29, 2021 21:48
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As lovely as they're being, it at least works better from a romance story perspective than the last route. Hisao isn't afraid to assert himself but ultimately enjoys their company enough to play along, and Shizune can fall for what is apparently the only person in the world to call her out on her bullshit. A pretty typical rivals turned lovers story.
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Sep 29, 2021 23:07
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A reminder that Shizune has a legitimate reason to be upset with Lilly (even more now that we find out that absolutely no one is willing to help with the physical part of setting up this festival). Also, while Misha's "delinquent" line is definitely way too much, they were both very concerned and helpful when Hanako had her anxiety attack in Hanako's route. I continue to read her interactions with Hisao as teasing. Definitely on the overbearing end, but we already know that she backs way off as soon as Hisao finds anything legitimate to do with his time. Right now, she's seeing a cute boy who's willing to stand up to her with nothing to do with his time, and is making her interest known. Again, yes, overbearing, but, uh, have you ever been around a teenage girl with a type-A personality?
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Sep 29, 2021 23:19
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Zurai posted:type-A personality Normally I wouldn't nitpick about this, but since this thread is Effortpost Junction, I'd like to take a moment to point out that concepts such as "Type A/Type B", Myers-Briggs, and especially the ever-popular-on-the-internet "Alpha/Beta"*, as well as just about every other supposed method of categorizing people's personalities into easily-digested labels, are largely worthless pop psychology barely worthy of being a parlor game, and only slightly more useful in understanding human behavior than astrology (in fact, Carl Jung, on whose research the Myers-Briggs test was based**, even said as much). People who tend to rely on such descriptors are almost always trying to excuse their lovely behavior or character flaws by putting a positive spin on it. While one can argue whether or not Shizune is an outright abuser, per se, it's pretty clear, at minimum, that she's kind of an rear end in a top hat and her behavior is not okay. *The concept of the "Alpha Male" originated from flawed research on wolves in captivity that failed to realize that what the researcher thought was a complex social hierarchy was in fact just wolves simulating a family unit, as that's how they group together in the wild (the "Alpha" was simply the surrogate father of the group). L. David Mech, the man who popularized the theory (based on the work of Rudolph Schenkel) even publicly recanted his prior claims, though, obviously, by then the damage was done (an old Mark Twain quote comes to mind). **Note that Myers and Briggs were pair of bored laymen with exactly zero education in the field of psychology beyond reading some of Jung's work in their spare time.
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Sep 30, 2021 00:14
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OK, got it, I won't post again since I don't have the background for it. EDIT: Seriously. I was using it as a shorthand for "very extroverted and charismatic with a propensity for sweeping bystanders up in their activities". I guess that's on me. I certainly wasn't "trying to put a positive spin" on it, just point out that young people with personalities like that are very much like Shizune, especially if they have another strong extrovert like Misha to bounce off of. (My experience as a pretty strong introvert is that extroverts tend to have an exponentially exhausting effect. Being around two extroverts at the same time is way more than twice as bad) Shizune has already shown through the other two routes that she's more attentive than 99.9% of teenagers with this kind of personality by backing the gently caress off when Hisao found other people to hang out with/other things to do. My read—and while I played every route when the game came out, I remember basically nothing of Shizune's—is that she's a bit lonely and definitely interested in Hisao. She's not handling either of those in the best way, but she's a teenager in primary school. People are treating her like she's a 30-year-old or a mental health professional. She's not. She's a kid. Further, she's a kid with way too much responsibility on her shoulders as apparently the only Student Council member for the entire school. Yeah, she's probably pushing people away with her forcefulness, and that's a negative feedback loop, but that happens every single day to probably literally billions of people in real life. Zurai fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 00:22
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Zurai posted:OK, got it, I won't post again since I don't have the background for it. I wasn't trying to put you specifically on blast, it was just an opportunity to discuss how a flawed understanding of psychology can lead to people excusing poor behavior.
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Sep 30, 2021 00:59
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I tried to do this route (because I thought Misha had her own route) but I burned out a little ways into chapter 2. I apparently missed the part where Hisao was hoping Shizue would ask him out on a date.
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Sep 30, 2021 05:15
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So, uh, it occurs to me I may have skipped over something important that I thought I captured when I wrote the update a week ago but forgot about until I reread it just now and I didn’t make it clear. During that last section, where Hisao notes the tone change, both of their body languages changes: Misha starts switching between smiling and frowning (instead of only smiling) and stops emoting as much, while Shizune doesn’t smile at all and keeps her hands to her sides while shifting around. The text also slows down, with each sentence or two getting a text box instead of three at a time, like they’re taking their time to form their sentences and consider what they’re saying. Playing it, you get the impression that they’re uncomfortable with their own behavior and genuinely trying to back off and give him room to tell them to get lost. They at least indirectly acknowledge they need to approach things differently and try to reign it in this time. I’m not saying this because it’ll prove or disprove anyone’s arguments in the thread or change anyone’s minds, I just wanted to make that factor clear where it wasn’t before.
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Sep 30, 2021 05:57
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Zurai posted:A reminder that Shizune has a legitimate reason to be upset with Lilly (even more now that we find out that absolutely no one is willing to help with the physical part of setting up this festival). Also, while Misha's "delinquent" line is definitely way too much, they were both very concerned and helpful when Hanako had her anxiety attack in Hanako's route. Yes my point is that for me behaviour their went from teasing to annoying over the last update, but it's still a teen boy being bossed around by two cute girls and mostly just going along with it to banter with them (I read his "well that's a dissapointment" line with a smirk, for example). I think some are focusing too much on the literial wording because you lose alot of the "tone" in the LP format.
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Sep 30, 2021 08:21
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