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I don't think the gender essentialist view of quackery is doing anyone any favors
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Sep 30, 2021 16:40
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Acknowledging another's skin tone doesn't mean you're racist. Specifically, this conversation last night: "Who's Jordan?" "The black guy with the nose ring." "You know, you could have just said 'the guy with the nose ring.'" This collapsed into an argument at the bar where I was greatly outnumbered by angry white people saying I shouldn't point out the skin color of others? I live in a town with 95% white people. Jordan is a black guy. There are thousands of people here with nose rings. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make your white loving rear end uneasy by saying such things out loud, but there's only all of five loving black people who come to this bar and only one with a loving nose ring. Furthermore, am I wrong, but wouldn't it just loving perpetuate racism and prejudice when we all like, PRETEND he doesn't have dark skin color? credburn has a new favorite as of 16:46 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 16:43
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credburn posted:Furthermore, am I wrong, but wouldn't it just loving perpetuate racism and prejudice when we all like, PRETEND he doesn't have dark skin color? Is "the dude with the nose ring" not enough? Specifically pointing out a minority is a minority seems a bit odd sometimes.
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Sep 30, 2021 16:53
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it seems less and less odd the more you work for a living with people of multiple races on a work site. everyone does it, at least in the blue collar world
hawowanlawow has a new favorite as of 17:01 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 16:59
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well, the blue collar world is often full of racists, so i dunno if i'd take "everyone does it" as a pass. Lol i also feel like this'll devolve into a bunch of white people arguing on behalf of PoC
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Sep 30, 2021 17:07
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Is "the dude with the nose ring" not enough? Specifically pointing out a minority is a minority seems a bit odd sometimes. He did say there were thousands of people there with nose rings and even if we are to understand that as hyperbole it would seem to indicate that "the dude with the nose ring" is not a statement that sufficiently identifies the person.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:09
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Fashionable Jorts posted:well, the blue collar world is often full of racists, so i dunno if i'd take "everyone does it" as a pass. Yeah I have an opinion on the subject but it doesn't matter in this case for one very obvious reason
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Sep 30, 2021 17:12
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Disco Pope posted:Yeah, agreed about Tarot and I'd extend that to crystals and stones too - my partner bought a stone that is supposed has anxiety soothing properties, and although neither of us take that literally or believe the stone has magical or spiritual properties, but it can be something to focus on meditatively. It could be a Batman action figure and serve the same function, but this specific object is the one they've chosen as a meditative focus because it looks cool. I will get real loving mad at people who will claim woo can cure cancer or prey on the sick or grieving though. I have kind of a nuanced view on this whole thing. Basically, Knee jerk reactions are bad, yes. And a lot of those knee jerk reactions are coming from people who are Rational Atheist and call themselves Skeptics but only so they can beat other people with that stick, which you can tell from the fact that they believe in cryptocurrencies and the whole Less Wrong bullshit or are on the periphery of those beliefs, sure. And I do think engaging with this stuff in a way that takes the aesthetics because you like them is good, sure. But something that you didn't address here is that there are literally people who believe in this, and that these beliefs are often exactly what lead people down the path of say, the anti-vaccine movement and far-right wing beliefs, which is something I've seen happen multiple times. On top of that, while there's an upsurge of ironic or aesthetic witchery (which again, is fine and something I am leaning towards), this has directly led to an uptick of people who got very emotionally distraught over some other people claiming they were hexing the moon, and what happens when the tarot cards say death to someone considering whether or not to get chemotherapy, or someone decides to "hex the veil" or whatever bullshit and a teenager with depression or psychotic episodes becomes scared out of their minds? And sure, some people believe in like, angels or other random religious stuff, but the difference is there isn't as foreward of a pipeline towards becoming a literal Natural News reader unless you live in a specific geographical area, and that these beliefs for the most part do not drive people to those extremes. So, not only are these beliefs (crystals, dream catchers, tarot, ...) often based on colonialist views, racism, and the appropriation and perversion of belief systems of indigenous and native people, but there is a direct pipeline between these beliefs and material harm to the world and the people in it. I actually have no idea what the solution is here, because there is no "top down" solution to this, and because at this point the primary blame can only be placed on the concepts and systems and structures that were already created out of exploitative intentions, whether explicit as in the form of charlatans, or implicit as in the form of appropriation. This is a wall of text but im in a graphomanic mood, sorry alexandriao has a new favorite as of 17:39 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 17:31
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Is "the dude with the nose ring" not enough? Specifically pointing out a minority is a minority seems a bit odd sometimes. I mean in this specific instance both is fine. In that, obviously the ultimate intent and outcome of the person doing it overrides this, but mentioning someone is black is like mentioning that someone is tall, and the erasure of race as a kind of band aid for racism is itself completely and utterly racist (not that you were doing that)
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Sep 30, 2021 17:33
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alexandriao posted:I have kind of a nuanced view on this whole thing. Nah, I think I agree with you. There's the reason the yoga mum to anti-vaxxer stereotype exists, and I found myself nodding a lot reading this. I think if there's a throughline from, like, crystal pendant buyer (or gamer or aging punk-rock guy) to right wing scary person, it tends to be feeling aggrieved and being unable to differentiate between contrarian rebellion and critical rebellion. The though process seems to follow lines like "hey, medicine is untrustworthy, so I should do the opposite of that" not "medicine is untrustworthy, I need to weigh up the evidence here" Disco Pope has a new favorite as of 17:46 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 17:41
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The only people that have ever gotten on my case about using race as a descriptor have been white and well off. But my work is very diverse, so it's just natural to use the very readily obvious descriptor than trying to play twenty questions just to avoid saying "Tom is the black dude standing by the loading dock."
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Sep 30, 2021 17:53
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Being into New Age beliefs is more of a far left wing thing IMO Ignoring COVID, people believing in New Age beliefs doesn’t really bother me at a societal level, but I wouldn’t want to get into a serious relationship with someone who e.g. doesn’t believe in modern medicine or who believes that convenience food is literally poison. It would create a lot of practical problems.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:56
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silence_kit posted:Being into New Age beliefs is more of a far left wing thing IMO I'm really not so sure. It's probably always been there, but certain people who I always (lazily) assumed were pretty progressive or left leaning have revealed themselves to just be contrarians who'll just take whatever the opposite stance to the government or media is, never really understanding in the case of something like vaccination, its entirely possible that its the government that agrees with *me* and I'm not being a sheeple or whatever. These people learned to be oppositional to the government or media or whatever at somepoint, but never from a critical or analytical stand-point. The place I'm seeing it the most is from old punks whenever an act asks for facemasks at shows or whatever. "What happened to being anti-government, maaaaaaan?"
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Sep 30, 2021 18:05
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To be fair, masks at shows suck. I miss live music...
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Sep 30, 2021 18:10
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My biggest problem with astrology/witchiness, besides the way that it can lead to anti-vax (to be clear so can conservative Christianity) is the way it wants to eat its cake and have it to. People who practice it want it to be given the respect of a religion, but not treated as a religion.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:26
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thetoughestbean posted:My biggest problem with astrology/witchiness, besides the way that it can lead to anti-vax (to be clear so can conservative Christianity) is the way it wants to eat its cake and have it to. People who practice it want it to be given the respect of a religion, but not treated as a religion. I don't see how thats a problem though. A personal faith should be just as important (in society) as a organized faith. Individual spiritualism is cool and good, and should be respected.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:31
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The idea of "the experts are secretly trying to hurt us, but I have hidden knowledge THEY don't want us to know" is universal I have no idea what is so appealing about that mindset, but you see it in literally every culture and group. It must be some lizard brain* thing from the old cave and berries days *lizard brain in this case refers to the implants the lizard people put in our frontal lobes during prenatal ultrasounds so protect your baby, burn sage over your baby bump instead of getting the ultrasounds THEY want you to get
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Sep 30, 2021 18:31
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Imo trust the experts, because they are your betters and thus should control you.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:33
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I don't see how thats a problem though. A personal faith should be just as important (in society) as a organized faith. Individual spiritualism is cool and good, and should be respected. If it’s a personal faith then it should be treated as such, and with witchcraft, etc, there’s a lot of denying that it is even a faith. At a book store, the books about astrology and divination is found in the “self-transformation” section, not the religion section. And when it comes to religion, the people who say that their belief gives them literal magic power are almost universally treated with scorn. Faith healers are bullshit. Why should they be treated differently when it’s a rock instead of a cross they’re peddling?
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Sep 30, 2021 18:57
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People from Montreal are much ruder than people from Paris.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:01
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silence_kit posted:Being into New Age beliefs is more of a far left wing thing IMO so Tony Cliff wrote in the 70s about how a large amount of leftism is divided between middle class leftism and working class leftism, and used the example (among others) of how there were in fact two disconnected sufferagette movements in the 1800s. In my experience new age beliefs seem to be "middle class leftism", that is to say the people I have known who were drawn into it were mostly or entirely detached from any tanglible political activism, and didn't associate with any left wing tendencies or ideas outside of their new age strain (as opposed to how communists and anarchists interact and have an overlap of ideas), vaguely and ineffectively identifying instead with the "hippie" movements of the 1960s. The hippie movements incidentally were also comprised almost entirely of middle class people, who were afforded the luxury to be hippies because their parents were rich, and the majority of which left the movement after they hit X age to get nice comfy management jobs. I think this is actually I think where the idea comes from that people will "grow out" of leftism as they age -- these people who are seen to be leftist, but do not have or want any ties with the bona fide history of leftist thought or any practical activism, and instead "go their own way" Then when they have spent enough time doing this they "realise it is all a scam" or whatever and fit right back into the social mould, which they might take small grievance with, but do not fight back against. What's more, the people who I've known to be new age-y folk were actually much more centrist in their ideals than you would expect, and honestly would be more socdems / liberals rather than properly left wing. alexandriao has a new favorite as of 19:21 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 19:10
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Grouchio posted:But think about it; because Psyduck's only a water type it's not weak to Bug/Dark/Ghost moves, only Grass/Electric. Not getting the type advantage offensive boost sucks, but I see what you're getting at. I still think Psyduck would be cooler if it were a water/psychic hybrid but I guess that's what Slowpoke is for. quote:It's like Gyrados being able to use Earthquake, Solar Beam, Rock Slide and Thunder to counter for it's water/flying weaknesses. Unless they give Gyarados a move that automatically makes every Pokemon in someone else's party faint, it will always be complete rear end no matter what.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:28
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I don't see how thats a problem though. A personal faith should be just as important (in society) as a organized faith. Individual spiritualism is cool and good, and should be respected. Why? Organized religions do things. Voter drives, charity events, etc. Many, even most, of them are evil as hell but they are a force in society. Personal faiths are just weirdos being insane on their own. Like, eating mushrooms and hallucinating wildly is awesome but there is nothing deserving of respect or importance there. Individual spirtualism is bad and dumb and should be mocked. Especially because a lot of them are just consumerism masquerading as enlightenment. Oh, you bought a $200 crystal to purify your air? At least organized religions give us public art (like Churches). PHUO: GB should fix their petrol problem by bringing back the electric milk carts and have everybody just drive those. They will be metered and only accept non-decimal currency. Bring back two things that made Britain great!
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Sep 30, 2021 20:03
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Just make everyone drive Sinclair C5's
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Sep 30, 2021 20:06
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OnlyBans posted:Why? Organized religions do things. Voter drives, charity events, etc. Many, even most, of them are evil as hell but they are a force in society. Personal faiths are just weirdos being insane on their own. Like, eating mushrooms and hallucinating wildly is awesome but there is nothing deserving of respect or importance there. Individual spirtualism is bad and dumb and should be mocked. Especially because a lot of them are just consumerism masquerading as enlightenment. Oh, you bought a $200 crystal to purify your air? At least organized religions give us public art (like Churches). Personal spirituality is important because it fills a basic need of human beings hth Also organized religion is predicated on personal faith
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Sep 30, 2021 20:21
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Manager Hoyden posted:Personal spirituality is important because it fills a basic need of human beings hth Wild supposition followed by an unsupported statement. Organized religion is predicated on tradition. Personal faith doesn't have to figure into it at all. Ideally it shouldn't since personal faith is dumb as poo poo.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:23
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Well okay if you say so but I'm not personally interested in an argument about it or your view, just telling you how it is
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Sep 30, 2021 20:25
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Organized religion is arguably more about social cohesion than personal expressions of faith.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:28
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OnlyBans posted:Why? Organized religions do things. Voter drives, charity events, etc. Many, even most, of them are evil as hell but they are a force in society. Personal faiths are just weirdos being insane on their own. Like, eating mushrooms and hallucinating wildly is awesome but there is nothing deserving of respect or importance there. Individual spirtualism is bad and dumb and should be mocked. Especially because a lot of them are just consumerism masquerading as enlightenment. Oh, you bought a $200 crystal to purify your air? At least organized religions give us public art (like Churches). Lol what?
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Sep 30, 2021 21:23
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So what your saying is a person finding God in their own time is unacceptable, because that individual isn't doing things like charity drives and genocide in the name of said god? That only direct action that affects others is what matters?
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Sep 30, 2021 21:32
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Fashionable Jorts posted:So what your saying is a person finding God in their own time is unacceptable, because that individual isn't doing things like charity drives and genocide in the name of said god? That only direct action that affects others is what matters? Yes. Direct action that affects others is the only thing that matters. "Finding God" is a ludicrous pursuit. There is no "deep down", the only thing that matters is what you do.
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Sep 30, 2021 21:44
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OnlyBans posted:Yes. Direct action that affects others is the only thing that matters. "Finding God" is a ludicrous pursuit. There is no "deep down", the only thing that matters is what you do. 
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Sep 30, 2021 21:52
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Yeah I'm pretty lost too
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Sep 30, 2021 21:55
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Let it be known that I also think personal faith is important and to be respected. I just take exception when people say they have magical powers
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Sep 30, 2021 22:19
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I have magic powers
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Sep 30, 2021 22:20
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Manager Hoyden posted:I have magic powers Oh yeah? Show me
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Sep 30, 2021 22:21
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Stop sealioning ugh
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Sep 30, 2021 22:24
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Manager Hoyden posted:Yeah I'm pretty lost too I think what they are getting at is that idea that "nothing is real other than what makes an impact on other people" which is certainly a point of view.
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Sep 30, 2021 22:45
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Okay, but what if my individual faith helps me improve myself, making me a more happy and productive member of my community, and therefor improving the lives of those around me? Does that not count since in not preaching about Christ or whatever as the faith makes me better off? Fashionable Jorts has a new favorite as of 23:10 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 23:06
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Okay, but what if my individual faith helps me improve myself, making me a more happy and productive member of my community, and therefor improving the lives of those around me? I think, though am not sure this is me interpreting as opposed to anything else, that the argument would be that if something only affects your own view on things how real is it? Being more happy and productive, just as yourself, is meaningless vs 50+ people all doing something. At least that is what I am assuming the argument is.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:12
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