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LRADIKAL posted:You chased off the trans interpreters for this long-winded jerk off session? The Matrix is actually taking place in 1999 and everyone is on drugs? gently caress off! As a straight white tech guy The Matrix is a metaphor for my experience in therapy. That's... sort of like the Walgreens Nice! brand version of the posting you want?
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Sep 30, 2021 18:23
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Mike N Eich posted:I often wonder why the Wachowski's didn't go the route of justifying the Machine's relationship to the Matrix with them having to adhere, in some twisted way, to the three laws of robotics. No matter how much they may actually despise the humans, have them totally under their control, they're hardwired to continue Human existence as much as possible and their way around having to deal with our asses is to keep us in this dreamlike state. My interpretation is that The Machines that humans/Neo interact with don't know the whole story, either. Even The Architect. From The Architect's point of view: his job is to just keep Humans alive and in the Matrix.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:26
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What's the deal with Tank? He was born in Zion and can't visit the Matrix, but uses a bunch of 20th century Earth catchphrases. Did he just pick up the slang from being around Matrix people every day? Is he some kind of Matrix weeb?
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Sep 30, 2021 18:38
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Robot Style posted:What's the deal with Tank? He was born in Zion and can't visit the Matrix, but uses a bunch of 20th century Earth catchphrases. Did he just pick up the slang from being around Matrix people every day? Is he some kind of Matrix weeb? I always thought there must be some kind of rift between the homegrown humans and the Matrix people. I'd be pissed off if they could be virtual reality superheroes in cool outfits while I'm stuck in rags eating slop.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:45
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Some kids keep jacking into the matrix to go to Rob Zombie concerts. Others are stuck trying out for the zion football team. Future robo apocalypse classism. You gotta expect that there would be a lot more Cyphers. Maybe a pro matrix party on the council. Unless they were all purged..
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Sep 30, 2021 18:48
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Necrothatcher posted:I always thought there must be some kind of rift between the homegrown humans and the Matrix people. I'd be pissed off if they could be virtual reality superheroes in cool outfits while I'm stuck in rags eating slop. I think you kind of see that when they eat the slop, Tank and Dozer especially seem cool/almost proud of it with it while everyone else is like wtf. Mouse writes the training programs and talks about how it's interesting to think about if the stuff even tastes like what it's "supposed" to in the Matrix (like how do machines no what everything tastes like and such) vs. the real food/etc. Except for Mouse all the go-into-the-Matrix-people hate it. Not that you know who every single Matrix-entering person is in Reloaded but in Reloaded there's also that part where Neo talks about destroying like all machinery around them (because to him it's like, I punch a program hard it goes away problem solved) while the older Zion guy with him has to spoonfeed to him that like they need basic machinery to keep a city functioning. So I don't think the movies really go into it much but it is subtly there to me.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:59
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I guess to bring things around it'd be incredibly frustrating to be a trans person in Zion and never be able to plug in to experience your actual self-image.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:05
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Necrothatcher posted:I guess to bring things around it'd be incredibly frustrating to be a trans person in Zion and never be able to plug in to experience your actual self-image. What if the transness was you feeling the real you outside the matrix so you have a different body in the matrix until you rejack in and assert your new avatar. So hypothetically you would be gender affirming outside the matrix.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:17
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So then nobody in Zion would be trans, or they would just gender affirm in a different way?
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Sep 30, 2021 19:21
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Being trans isn't dependent on external factors or medical intervention. Based on what was presented in the movies ideally trans identities would look like ones that have existed throughout human history. They would have the name they want, clothes and social roles that correspond to who they are. The movies don't really show what day to day life in Zion would be so it is unclear exactly what that would mean. e: The literal state of 'what would it mean to be trans in the universe of the Matrix?' is honestly a lot less interesting than how the overall story reflects the reality and thinking of trans people. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 19:34
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Halloween Jack posted:So then nobody in Zion would be trans, or they would just gender affirm in a different way? Right, because the matrix is simulation, And I'd argue neo already shows that the matrix isn't programmed for the people inside's best interest. I thought one of the main points was you don't get to live your life in the matrix. Morpheus crew do because they are out and get to hop back in with new knowledge, like lucid dreaming. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 19:39
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Ferrinus posted:At the end of the story in 2199, the boss machine is still alive but its relationship with humanity has changed: it needs humans, but cannot sustainably keep them asleep any more. It's got leverage over them because it controls the life-sustaining infrastructure of the matrix, but at the same time humans have leverage over it because they're the life-sustaining infrastructure within the matrix and therefore of machine society at large, and can effectively go on strike to bring about both peoples' mutual ruin. “We don’t need you. We need nothing.” This is another case where everything you’ve written is technically right - except that it’s losing its basis in the specifics of the text. If Neo is a Leninist, then sure! But that hasn’t been established. (We keep running into the trouble that everyone sees themselves in Neo, because he’s very likeable, but we lose track of what Neo actually does.) In this particular case, you are asserting that humanity provides the infrastructure that sustains the machine society - but that’s not true. At the end of Matrix 2, there are “levels of survival that we are prepared to accept”, and the only thing that changes in Matrix 3 is the threat posed by Smith. Humans do not actually provide anything essential. “We don’t need you.” So, given that the “power plant” explanation is false, why does the destruction of the matrix reduce the machines’ ‘level of survival’ without actually threatening them? The only good answer is that those machines that directly run the matrix might be destroyed along with it, while the rest would remain unaffected. As is repeatedly stressed, machines/programs without ‘purpose’ are deleted - so, the death of humanity would leave Oracle and Architect purposeless. Bad for them, but not the end of the machines. Also, what is the threat posed by Smith? Although Smith is referred to as a figure of death, he obviously isn’t killing people. He is a figure of death drive, “the way immortality appears within psychoanalysis ... an uncanny excess of life, for an ‘undead’ urge which persists beyond the (biological) cycle of life and death, of generation and corruption.” His goal is consequently not to destroy the world, but to interrupt the unending cycle of rebellion and tyranny that ultimately sustains the system. “It’s happening exactly as before.” “Well, not exactly.” quote:The 1999 version of the story is murkier because even towards the end of the first movie the stuff inside the superstructure/matrix becomes as hallucinatory and/or metaphorical as the nightmarish base/machine world. If The One is, as the Architect explains, the incarnation of the rebellion of an entire human race who threatens to wake from the dream of bourgeois ideology, then the crazy stunts and battles Neo gets into only make sense as the struggles of a vanguard party that grows in size and power as its theory sharpens and mass support builds. At the end, though, we have the same result: it confronts the underlying machinery of capital and proceeds to seize and use it, not simply smash it because it's sinful or something. I’m intrigued by this, but I’m unclear where you’re getting evidence of mass support, and/or the seizing of the machinery of capital. Do you mean how the squid-drones lay down their weapons and refuse to kill the Zionites? In “1999” terms, these are police suddenly disobeying orders and changing sides? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 19:46
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LRADIKAL posted:You chased off the trans interpreters for this long-winded jerk off session? The Matrix is actually taking place in 1999 and everyone is on drugs? gently caress off! I think this is actually important to the trans narrative in The Matrix because the character of Morpheus's resistance and the accuracy or misleadingness of the computer simulation vs. hellish machine world paradigm at all also speaks to the political character of Neo's awakening and being trans in general. At its core, The Matrix is about someone realizing that what they thought was an organic, immutable ideal is actually a work of artifice designed to exploit them, and that they consequently don't want and don't have to be the person that nearly everyone around them tells them they're supposed to be. But if the small group of people who do support awakening and self-redefinition are actually some kind of QAnon terrorist militia, that says weird and frankly unpleasant things about the trans narrative. Libertarianism is LGBTQ-friendly? Sure, its adherents claim as much, but is it really? So I think it's worthwhile to hash out what Morpheus and co. are really against and really for. SuperMechagodzilla posted:“We don’t need you. We need nothing.” "We don't need you. We need nothing." is exactly the immediate, petulant response of any boss to the threat of a strike, and it's fitting that it's shouted by a giant baby who immediately reverses themselves and accepts Neo's help. The same goes for being prepared to accept certain levels of survival. Like, going from individual handicraft to collective manufacture to full-on industrial factory labor allowed capitalists to increase their productivity and therefore profits by multiple orders of magnitude... but that kind of socialization of production also allowed workers to organize. That's very dangerous, so maybe the capitalists should simply accept a lower level of survival and decentralize their production back to the individual cottage workshop level. They'd still, technically, reap profits, right? So why don't they do it? Well, the answer is that they can't. Their capital won't let them. The first one to defect would beat out all the others and send us right back to the moment of threatening revolutionary rupture. No matter how one might posture, there's no going back - and I should note that this also goes for the working class, who might romanticize about devolving society back to the level of agrarian village but will never actually succeed in building a socialist society unless they master and use industry rather than shun it. Like I said before, I don't accept that the "power plant" explanation is false as opposed to misleading or incomplete. The machines go to great lengths to keep humans imprisoned, and prisons exist for political-economic reasons, not moral ones. There is something the machines get from the matrix that they need, and can't or won't do without; some reason that Smith turning the matrix into a blighted wasteland poses a threat even to the metal-cast and geothermally-powered machines of the physical world. quote:I’m intrigued by this, but I’m unclear where you’re getting evidence of mass support, and/or the seizing of the machinery of capital. Do you mean how the squid-drones lay down their weapons and refuse to kill the Zionites? In “1999” terms, these are police suddenly disobeying orders and changing sides? I'm literally talking about Neo's waxing superpowers here. Enlightenment as to the nature of the matrix allows people to leap from building to building but not to rip apart cities with the mere force of their passing. What makes The One The One? The Architect tells us: Neo represents the accumulated will to rebel of all of sleeping humanity. So we can't just assume that the scenes in the matrix are real while the scenes outside the matrix are metaphorical representations of various experiences or realizations the characters are happening; when Dragon Ball Z fights are occurring across '90s cityscapes, that's also got to be a stand-in for some serious ideological and societal upheaval. Ultimately I don't even think it's useful to talk in terms of these two parallel possible readings of the film. I think it's just a fact that vampiric biomechanical hellscape is the true face of the '90s (and beyond). Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 20:04
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I am requesting that people don't use trans people as rhetorical objects to argue for the kind of posting they prefer.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:15
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Shiroc posted:I am requesting that people don't use trans people as rhetorical objects to argue for the kind of posting they prefer. i am echoing this request, please.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:16
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Shiroc posted:I am requesting that people don't use trans people as rhetorical objects to argue for the kind of posting they prefer.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:18
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what even are the demographics of zion? It's current iteration is 100 years old (exactly?) and each cycle starts with 23 survivors. Is it mostly people just born in zion or is it a large population of people morpheus tediously releases one at a time from the matrix? In the movie it seems like a majority of people are ex matrix and natives are somewhat novel, and the point of zion is a fake base for resistance freedom fighters to waste their energy on, but it seems like just having kids would fill up the place way faster than the very very slow and personalized red pill stuff. It seems like natives would dominate the population pretty quickly.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:it seems like just having kids would fill up the place way faster than the very very slow and personalized red pill stuff. It seems like natives would dominate the population pretty quickly. Given that the world outside the Matrix seems like a flora\fauna\sunless hellhole where people subsist on mysterious pastes, I'm guessing fertility rates aren't through the roof.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:43
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Neo Rasa posted:
Rewatching it I thought the movie was nearly outright saying that guy was definitely a previous "One" who rebooted the last Matrix via compromising with the machines, given how on point he was. But then he just turns out to be some guy.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:43
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mysterious frankie posted:Given that the world outside the Matrix seems like a flora\fauna\sunless hellhole where people subsist on mysterious pastes, I'm guessing fertility rates aren't through the roof.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:45
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:what even are the demographics of zion? This also made me wonder like, is every awakening the as personalized as Neo's? Like Morpheus is pretty zealous about him being THE ONE, Trinity has a thing for him, etc., so that may have effected their process. Like maybe or run of the mill folks there's less like run-ins with the agents or after a tedious build up they have enough people at the tipping point that folks are getting awakened at a steady rate now. Neo the average day job guy in the Matrix who's also a big-time hacker was actively reading up on Morpheus before getting the call, so like is a person in the Matrix thinking "hey maybe this Morpheus guy that keeps eluding the police has some good ideas I'm going to look into that" the thing that sets off the "go in and awaken this person" alert or whatever? Kind of wish we got a second Animatrix
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Sep 30, 2021 20:51
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Halloween Jack posted:It has everything the body needs! lol, the top of the social hierarchy are developers and demagogues and they all live on Soylent. Zion is Silicon Valley.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:55
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Considering what they've done to Burning Man, that really tracks.Neo Rasa posted:This also made me wonder like, is every awakening the as personalized as Neo's? Like Morpheus is pretty zealous about him being THE ONE, Trinity has a thing for him, etc., so that may have effected their process. Like maybe or run of the mill folks there's less like run-ins with the agents or after a tedious build up they have enough people at the tipping point that folks are getting awakened at a steady rate now. Neo the average day job guy in the Matrix who's also a big-time hacker was actively reading up on Morpheus before getting the call, so like is a person in the Matrix thinking "hey maybe this Morpheus guy that keeps eluding the police has some good ideas I'm going to look into that" the thing that sets off the "go in and awaken this person" alert or whatever? Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 21:01
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Ferrinus posted:Like I said before, I don't accept that the "power plant" explanation is false as opposed to misleading or incomplete. The machines go to great lengths to keep humans imprisoned, and prisons exist for political-economic reasons, not moral ones. There is something the machines get from the matrix that they need, and can't or won't do without; some reason that Smith turning the matrix into a blighted wasteland poses a threat even to the metal-cast and geothermally-powered machines of the physical world. Okay, I agree there must be a reason. But, before this can progress any further, we need to be a lot more specific about what the reason is. Now, your argument is that the machines themselves are the capitalists. They must have some hidden profit motive that we're not aware of, and are most likely just blindly accumulating profit from slave labour for no ultimate reason at all, in the same way that a crypto mining rig sucks electricity to make number go up. These machines gladly allow humanity to survive at the end of Matrix 3 only because they know it will be more profitable for them in the long run. They're just purely senseless torturers, and it's very difficult, in that case, to see Matrix 3 as any sort of happy ending. Now, my explanation is slightly different: it is that the machines are simply neutral machines, forced to serve the actual capitalists. Which actual capitalists? Well, none other than the human capitalists who still persist inside the matrix, descendants of the millionaire tech bros who were the machines' original creators. The initial programming of the machines was written by these corporations in the early 2000s, and is based on that ideology. So, presented with the inherently contradictory goals of creating a perfectly utopian interconnected world and sustaining liberal capitalism indefinitely, the videogame prison for human civilization was the absurd-but-logical solution. "Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization." There's a joke to be made here about how markets cannot exist at all without significant government intervention: the robots are welfare-machines, but they are crucially unable to distinguish between welfare for the rich or welfare for the poor - treating everyone 'equally' in a way that is, or course, fundamentally unequal. A rich human and a poor human in have the same life-support pod and same ration of slurry in the reality of 2199, but one of them is far more likely to be arbitrarily terminated in the game. Ferrinus posted:Ultimately I don't even think it's useful to talk in terms of these two parallel possible readings of the film. I think it's just a fact that vampiric biomechanical hellscape is the true face of the '90s (and beyond). It'd certainly be easier that way, but the worlds can't both be literally-real as they can with a time travel narrative (e.g. Terminator). If 'deja vu' and a belief in ghosts are a product of glitches in the matrix, that implies that these did not exist in the actually-existing 1999. The matrix is therefore, as Mouse points out, very historically inaccurate, and the actually-existing 1999 was a hugely different alternate timeline.
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Sep 30, 2021 21:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Now, your argument is that the machines themselves are the capitalists. They must have some hidden profit motive that we're not aware of, and are most likely just blindly accumulating profit from slave labour for no ultimate reason at all, in the same way that a crypto mining rig sucks electricity to make number go up. These machines gladly allow humanity to survive at the end of Matrix 3 only because they know it will be more profitable for them in the long run. They're just purely senseless torturers, and it's very difficult, in that case, to see Matrix 3 as any sort of happy ending. It makes sense to trace the historical origin of machine exploitation to the system of human exploitation that the machines arose from and just pragmatically (in their own view) continued, but I don't think it's correct to then call them senseless torturers. Our capitalists aren't senseless torturers either; they're all just doing their best and making whichever choice happens to make the most sense at the time, which ends up being the one that upholds their class dictatorship. And they are, objectively, making real stuff and satisfying real needs, getting roofs over heads and sandwiches into mouths; it's just that this is done with massive amounts of violence and waste because there's an ever-heightening contradiction between the mode of production and the relations of production. It's possible that the machines are doing the equivalent of mining Bitcoin or betting on tulips when they're running the matrix, but I think the odds of that are low - they legitimately did have an apocalyptic war against flesh-and-blood humans and they do talk in terms of their own survival, not in terms of their own comfort. Like I said, the difference between "need" and "want" is itself extremely blurry and even if the matrix was generating 99% luxury and 1% sustenance its masters would still cling to it as hard as possible, but the fact that a machine that loses its job is executed shows that, as befits a gnostic parable, we're looking at a case of "as above, so below". The machines don't enjoy post-scarcity in the real world any more than we enjoy post-scarcity in the game and they have to organize their society around it. A distinction that might be helpful to make here is between the machines being capitalists, specifically and the machines creating and existing in a class society. Ancient Rome and feudal Europe weren't capitalist societies with proles and bosses, but they still had working classes and ruling classes such that ruling classes commanded and disposed of working class labor-power and brought "special bodies of armed men" to bear to keep working classes in line. The machines probably have such relations of domination and exploitation among themselves (they were programmed by liberals and might not know any better, and even if they do know better they clearly lack the productive base that would allow them to transcend class relations) and absolutely have such a relation to humanity. quote:It'd certainly be easier that way, but the worlds can't both be literally-real as they can with a time travel narrative (e.g. Terminator). If 'deja vu' and a belief in ghosts are a product of glitches in the matrix, that implies that these did not exist in the actually-existing 1999. The matrix is therefore, as Mouse points out, very historically inaccurate, and the actually-existing 1999 was a hugely different alternate timeline. I mean it's literally true that the seemingly-peaceful symbolic order is a mask over a brutal, carceral relationship in which an undead, alien power consumes your life-force by degrees. I'm not sure whether the distinction between the actual '90s, a fictional '90s, and a fictional-because-it's-simulated-by-machines '90s makes a difference there. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 22:06
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I do think its funny that the commentary that myself and other trans people had about how the Matrix reflects our real life experiences got dismissed as too limiting by SMG and instead he's spinning up a debate with a single person that's like 6 Marxism abstraction layers deep that devolves to 'are they literal robots or not?'
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Sep 30, 2021 22:29
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Shiroc, imagine for a moment that we're in a different world, where everyone in this thread is posting the way that you want them to post. Could you tell me a little about what that looks like? Please note that I'm not asking you to list things you don't want.
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Sep 30, 2021 22:54
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Trans people and other marginalized people get to speak for themselves, theoretical conversations about the movie are tied closer to more real world material concerns like Ferrinus', people who want to discuss the more literal content of the movie can do so, everyone gets some insight and goes into the next movie and more discussion happens. e: My only really hard thing is where I was getting frustrated that people kept diminishing the presence of actual trans people, to either speak for them or to wield us against posting enemies. My comment towards SMG is that I think he's lost the plot on what used to be very insightful commentary and now just takes up all of the air in a room for things that are so far removed from material concerns that they don't educate or agitate people about the piece of art or their actual lives. Which of course, was a problem Marx had himself. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 23:03
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From my point of view, the conversation between Ferrinus and SMG here is mostly about getting to the bottom of the material conditions. YMMV. I have more to say, but frankly I don't want to spit out something ill-considered and poorly-worded because I thought I had to cram an effortpost into the time it takes my pizza to finish cooking.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:18
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Everyone should just talk about Greg.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:23
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Halloween Jack posted:From my point of view, the conversation between Ferrinus and SMG here is mostly about getting to the bottom of the material conditions. YMMV. I have more to say, but frankly I don't want to spit out something ill-considered and poorly-worded because I thought I had to cram an effortpost into the time it takes my pizza to finish cooking. Fair if you are getting more from it than I am. I'm not telling either of them to stop posting generally but providing my commentary on thinking its disappearing into too theoretical to be meaningful, to be considered or not. My 4k copies of the movies arrived yesterday and I'm looking forward to getting to watch them again, especially since the original has fixed color timing in this release.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:39
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Yeah 4k Matrix 1 looks so good. I have to pick up reloaded 4k next. I dont think I have watched that film in whole in years. I also am excited for the commentary continuation between the films as I love a good commentary.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:45
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I haven't watched either of the sequels in forever. I watched the original most recently a few years ago either slightly before or after coming out when another trans woman had first talked about all of the trans stuff in it. I have a much nicer TV and great surround sound headphones so all of them should look and sound better than ever. Very far removed from the period in high school when I was watching the original DVD nearly every day on a mediocre CRT computer monitor.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:00
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Probably should have a Matrix trans thread imo.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:03
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Shiroc posted:I haven't watched either of the sequels in forever. I watched the original most recently a few years ago either slightly before or after coming out when another trans woman had first talked about all of the trans stuff in it. What are the headphones you're using? It'd be nice to use headphones sometimes at night when my partner is sleeping.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:03
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When somebody knows more than you about a thing, make the thing be about socialism and then you can keep talking past people and feeling clever, secure in the knowledge that the one thing you know is the most important reading of literally every piece of art you talk about.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:10
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MacheteZombie posted:What are the headphones you're using? It'd be nice to use headphones sometimes at night when my partner is sleeping. I've been using Arctis Pro Wireless https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/arctis-pro-wireless that I bought to use with my PS5. Not cheap and you might be able to do better if you don't need the headset functionality but I like them a lot for my stuff. Reasonably comfy to wear for hours with glasses and earrings.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:22
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Shiroc posted:Trans people and other marginalized people get to speak for themselves, theoretical conversations about the movie are tied closer to more real world material concerns like Ferrinus', people who want to discuss the more literal content of the movie can do so, everyone gets some insight and goes into the next movie and more discussion happens. It's really the opposite; Marx's rivals produced analysis so far from material concerns that it failed to educate or agitate anyone. That's why there have been multiple Marxist revolutions but no Proudhonian ones. It's also why there's a long tradition of Marxist feminism that examines relationship between queer liberation and socialist revolution, and why the anticapitalist themes of The Matrix also make The Matrix a better trans narrative. As I see it, my discussion with SMG is about the extent to which the movie depicts an anticapitalist rebellion as opposed to just a New Age spiritual awakening or Free State Project or whatever. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 00:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:what even are the demographics of zion? In the third movie Morpheus says they've freed more people in the last 6 months than they have in the last 6 years. You gotta think there would be a lot more people who share Cypher's opinion in that mix.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:43
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Ferrinus posted:It's really the opposite; Marx's rivals produced analysis so far from material concerns that it failed to educate or agitate anyone. That's why there have been multiple Marxist revolutions but no Proudhonian ones.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:51
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