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Could have picked like 50% of the ground unit combat stats in HOI IV as your example and detracted from a valid point far less, shakes my smhead
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Sep 30, 2021 20:17
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it's a very informative post, we just have to wait for the combat dev diary to come out!
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Sep 30, 2021 20:30
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TwoQuestions posted:We may have different wishes then, I kind of like the "historical CYOA" style system of EU/Imperator/HOI4 to the completely freeform CK3. Without the extra writing, all the nobles feel very samey in CK3, like they're a randomly generated painting over their character sheets. I especially like the writing you can do in HOI4, but the system is obtuse as hell. WTF is "combat width" supposed to be? Personally I hate that HOI4 has a combat system, in-depth equipment modeling, war mechanics, and then an entirely separate CYOA visual novel plastered on top of it. Clicking a button every 3 months in-game to get a popup story is a good way to design games for children.
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Sep 30, 2021 20:52
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I mean it is a game for children
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Sep 30, 2021 20:55
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All games are for children except Victoria 3
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Sep 30, 2021 21:09
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Victoria 3 is also for children, but specifically the ones who shout about how immature every is
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Sep 30, 2021 21:13
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DaysBefore posted:So glad that the US isn't the only feasible immigration-based nation anymore. Playing South American nations is going to be a lot more fun. Uruguay would like a word 
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Sep 30, 2021 21:13
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I guess I'm pining for a multiplayer King of Dragon Pass style game like what Old World Blues kind of is for HOI4. Victoria 3 could be even more suited to this style of gameplay, as your chosen faction is much less likely to get outright roflstomped by some great imperial power if they decide to murder you, like in HOI4 or Stellaris, and we'll all get to go through our storylines together, and occasionally interact with one another's nations. It's not that mechanics + story is bad, far from it! It's that the mechanics for HOI4 are impenetrable, especially when they have a mod's coat of paint on them. CK3 is much more approachable and Vicky 3 looks like it's going to continue that trend, and it looks like it will be far more capable of telling stories that don't involve shooting/stabbing people. I'm still pretty hype for it regardless.
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Sep 30, 2021 21:14
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Magissima posted:All games are for children except Victoria 3 All gamers are for children except Vicky 1 because no kid is splitting pops
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Sep 30, 2021 21:17
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Lol just lol if you weren't splitting pops by 14 like a badass.
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Sep 30, 2021 21:20
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Personally I hate that HOI4 has a combat system, in-depth equipment modeling, war mechanics, and then an entirely separate CYOA visual novel plastered on top of it. Clicking a button every 3 months in-game to get a popup story is a good way to design games for children. What I hate is that all of hoi4's war mechanics loving suck
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Sep 30, 2021 22:08
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VostokProgram posted:What I hate is that all of hoi4's war mechanics loving suck This. HOI4 is the best game to really tell the broad strokes of a war story, and it could be even better with a UI/mechanics facelift. What I'm hoping is Victoria 3 can tell the same kinds of economic/political stories, like the construction of the Hoover Dam, or the Chrysler Building.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:11
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VostokProgram posted:What I hate is that all of hoi4's war mechanics loving suck Yeah. I have a single game of HoI4 under my belt. I played USSR, a major who probably doesn't have to care about a lot of stuff like navy. I didn't touch the navy or air force and just mass-produced infantry and tanks and took over Europe. If I don't have to learn the mechanics to dominate the world then it kills all the joy. I bet if I'd start as El Salvador or tried to WC the world as USSR I would have to properly understand what happens, but then the game doesn't have any content for that occasion - it relies on unique policies and decisions and playing as a minor or going beyond WW2 scope erases this part of the game. I don't particularly like Stellaris but even it has an end game incentive to continue playing after you feel like you can take over the world.
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Oct 1, 2021 09:28
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ilitarist posted:Yeah. I have a single game of HoI4 under my belt. I played USSR, a major who probably doesn't have to care about a lot of stuff like navy. I didn't touch the navy or air force and just mass-produced infantry and tanks and took over Europe. If I don't have to learn the mechanics to dominate the world then it kills all the joy. I bet if I'd start as El Salvador or tried to WC the world as USSR I would have to properly understand what happens, but then the game doesn't have any content for that occasion - it relies on unique policies and decisions and playing as a minor or going beyond WW2 scope erases this part of the game. I don't particularly like Stellaris but even it has an end game incentive to continue playing after you feel like you can take over the world. Well, the USSR does a lot better if you do build an air force - air superiority and CAS planes bombing the enemy make a hell of a difference. And there's the "Southern Strike" focus which you can take to bring them into conflict with the Allies post-war, after which you'll need a navy to defeat the UK and US. The USSR is probably the most appropriate power to ignore air force and navy if that's what you want to do, though. But yeah, HoI4 is a WW2 game and you should probably quit after you've won the big war - it doesn't have the centuries of scope other Paradox games do. Gort fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 10:32
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I really like that they seem to avoid hard coding certain historical outcomes and instead try to create a simulation where these process occur naturally as a result of various political, economic and social factors.
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Oct 1, 2021 10:39
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It's especially great because it allows for some cool alt-history scenarios. You could presumably run a liberalized Argentina or Brazil and suppress the aristocracy in order to siphon a massive chunk of North American migrants, which will have huge effects on the USA.
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Oct 1, 2021 10:42
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Would be kind of neat, and also way too finicky and minor to be worth the trouble I'm sure, to see assimilation from immigrants give rise to hyphenated cultures, i.e. get a bunch of Italians and they assimilate to Italian-Americans or Portuguese-Canadians etc etc
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Oct 1, 2021 10:58
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VostokProgram posted:What I hate is that all of hoi4's war mechanics loving suck wrong bitch
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Oct 1, 2021 11:36
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What the hell. "I like HoI4 so I can play a choose your own adventure game, but I hate the wargame aspect." Focus trees are a fun little add-on that's been abused by the modding community to build their own geopolitical narrative games on top of a different game.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:06
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Focus trees are basically there to make sure WW2 actually happens. But if you want to use them to make a visual novel out of the game, go nuts.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:20
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I do agree that HOI's actual war mechanics are bad, there's a billion modifiers that aren't well explained and it's unclear what the benefit of any of then are. This is true of most Paradox games- the only one that I'd kinda except is EU4 but maybe that's just because it's the one I've played the most- but in HOI not understanding the combat just means you're left with an on-rails CYOA, as opposed to CK or Vicky where you've got a whole bunch of politics to deal with. (Stellaris has sort of a similar problem with the ship designer but even that's got way more internal stuff than HOI)
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Oct 1, 2021 14:31
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Would it be possible to play an extremely bizarre alt history where the UK handles the potato blight in a smart and humanitarian manner to minimize starvation and avoid a lot of emigration?
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Oct 1, 2021 14:39
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The thing I didn't like about HOI4 focus trees is that you just get the whole big screen at once and it can be overwhelming working out what's going on and what you wanna do. Also I feel like sometimes there was a tension between the focus trees and doing things manually. I haven't played for ages so i can't think of any examples but I remember doing things like influencing nations or declaring war and then realising there was a focus tree path that would have done it for me and also given me a bunch of bonuses.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:41
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Famed CYOA The New Order has the best war I've had in HOI4. Sablin start, having six or so poo poo divisions vs Yagoda's smaller but better army. It's not exactly difficult but it's very fun pulling the AI into encirclements. Otherwise, imo, HOI4's production mechanic is its only real improvement over the old days when division designers weren't traps and subs came in generic flotillas instead of being individuals with a ton of modules.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:41
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Poil posted:Would it be possible to play an extremely bizarre alt history where the UK handles the potato blight in a smart and humanitarian manner to minimize starvation and avoid a lot of emigration? I don't see why not. You're suppose to have a fair bit of control over your country in Victoria 3, after all. My question is whether the potato blight will be a scripted event or if famines, blights and other food shortages will be more of a mechanic that could happen to anywhere at any time.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:47
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I saw the first few 'Historian's view of Vicky2' linked, but I haven't seen the last one linked. https://acoup.blog/2021/09/03/collections-teaching-paradox-victoria-ii-part-iii-worlds-fair/
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Oct 1, 2021 14:49
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Poil posted:Would it be possible to play an extremely bizarre alt history where the UK handles the potato blight in a smart and humanitarian manner to minimize starvation and avoid a lot of emigration? Assumedly yes, but it will be a large strain on your resources in order to keep a large amount of unaccepted pops in your country. That might not be historically accurate of course, but it would just be gameplay wise. Usually there's an incentive in many Paradox games to try and keep things relatively historical, and if you want to stray off the historical course to do something that makes much more sense with hindsight 175 years later it will take a lot more work from the player. However, considering that you will most likely be able to accept the Irish culture at some point during the game it will certainly be difficult for people to accept that loss of population. Ah who am I kidding, who is going to be playing the UK in a Victoria game?
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Oct 1, 2021 14:52
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fuf posted:The thing I didn't like about HOI4 focus trees is that you just get the whole big screen at once and it can be overwhelming working out what's going on and what you wanna do. Good point, that did bite me a few times in Old World Blues when I wasted time fabricating claims on a bunch of bandit kingdoms, when the focus tree would give me those claims for free. I can also understand not wanting to go full on-rails adventure, and more like CK3's complete sandbox type gameplay rather than the Victorian CYOA novel I'm pining for.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:10
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The potato famines weren't caused by a lack of resources, they were caused by landowners shipping all the grain and meat off to other places to sell at a higher price. The Irish starved because nobody in government cared enough about them to rock the boat, not because there wasn't enough food in Ireland (the wheels of government being jammed up further with a good old pile of racism obviously)
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Oct 1, 2021 15:14
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Paradox doesn't make CYOA's they make strategy games, there's other companies that actually make visual novels and CYOA's and do it better than Paradox. Paradox's attempts to write focus trees in vanilla HoI are garbage (no offense to the devs/content writers but there's clearly a lot of asspulling and googling "[country] communist/fascist/liberal leader 1936" then deciding that the first Wikipedia article to pop up is now leading a magic coup because we need a path for every ideology in every country no matter how nonsensical). Which is fine! The point of the game is to be a relatively accessible WW2 wargame that's got a broader appeal than Gary Grigsby, I'm not expecting a richly detailed 1930's political CYOA, you run the first few years at max speed and then mash the little mans into each other until the map is all your color. But Paradox's strong suit is very clearly not crafting a fine historical narrative, it's making numbers puzzles. I personally at least would hate them trying to do a bunch of scripted on-rails focus trees for the Victorian era, the whole point of the Victoria franchise is you let the simulation go and then 40 years later out of nowhere it crashes the world economy for some insane reason to do with German Canada.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 15:19
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I mean they make games that are functionally both and I don’t see a reason why they would stop as they can do more complicated stuff
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Oct 1, 2021 15:22
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lol just lol if you need 40 years to crash a Vicky economy
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Oct 1, 2021 15:25
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RabidWeasel posted:The potato famines weren't caused by a lack of resources, they were caused by landowners shipping all the grain and meat off to other places to sell at a higher price. The Irish starved because nobody in government cared enough about them to rock the boat, not because there wasn't enough food in Ireland (the wheels of government being jammed up further with a good old pile of racism obviously) I know, that's why I mentioned that it was historically inaccurate. Again, there's no reason for what happened in Ireland during the Victorian era to ever happen in game, since it's basically a net negative all around. But gameplay wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was handled as a matter of money/resources. Paradox games have the unfortunate task of trying to keep things relatively historically accurate even though in real life they didn't actually make any sense. The conquest of the Aztec and Inca empires by a few thousand Spaniards is utterly absurd and should not have happened 99 times out of 100. But since they did happen, and it completely changed a large portion of the American continent, so it is something that is made ahistorically simple for the player and the AI to do.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:42
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trapped mouse posted:I know, that's why I mentioned that it was historically inaccurate. Again, there's no reason for what happened in Ireland during the Victorian era to ever happen in game, since it's basically a net negative all around. But gameplay wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was handled as a matter of money/resources. Having things like interest groups and political movements should hopefully make it possible to have events with "correctly nonsensical" historical outcomes because you might value political stability over the lives of a bunch of Irish farmer pops who already don't like you.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:51
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RabidWeasel posted:Having things like interest groups and political movements should hopefully make it possible to have events with "correctly nonsensical" historical outcomes because you might value political stability over the lives of a bunch of Irish farmer pops who already don't like you. Also, any famine event should be something you realize is happening when you're in the middle of it, when things are already looking bad and you'd need to act immediately to prevent it - something that simply might not be possible due to the aforementioned politics. On the other hand, if you've been proactive, you might not be in a situation where it "just makes sense" to send all the foodstuffs our of territories experiencing famine. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 16:16
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trapped mouse posted:I know, that's why I mentioned that it was historically inaccurate. Again, there's no reason for what happened in Ireland during the Victorian era to ever happen in game, since it's basically a net negative all around. But gameplay wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was handled as a matter of money/resources. I think depending on how the game handles unaccepted pops, it might not be a net negative choice in terms of AI calculations. The choice to allow the famine to happen was the choice to continue exporting cash crops from Ireland in the wake of a food shortage, rather than take the loss of trade and tax revenues from feeding the Irish population with the cash crops instead. Especially if (as I think it's already been shown?) the way the governments in the game work is that the decision-making is driven by the goals of pops with representation in govt, which in 19th century Britain would not include the Irish pops, but would include the landowners and merchants gaining revenues from cash crop exports.
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Oct 1, 2021 16:38
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How does Victoria 2 do the Potato Famine?
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Oct 1, 2021 16:39
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VIP had the potato famine, and even did it in the rest of Europe, not just the UK. Also had the later aphid famine on wine provinces
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Oct 1, 2021 16:43
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I can imagine it would be politically difficult to improve the treatment of "discriminated" pops. That alone would probably give you an incentive to allow a famine among "unaccepted" pops by default, and a way to fix the situation, at a cost, if you wanted to have a modicum of humanity.
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Oct 1, 2021 16:45
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Gort posted:How does Victoria 2 do the Potato Famine? iirc (because why would I play the UK sober) it's an event that drags down the liferating of Ireland and pisses off the Irish.
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Oct 1, 2021 16:47
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