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Helianthus Annuus posted:i think you did a better job of listening than i did, i just took the written notes at face value -- nice analysis! i concur. this isn't really related to the conversation at hand but you can borrow from a relative minor, because there's multiple minor scales and they don't all totally align with the major. like you could say D# hanging out in a G major piece was borrowing from E minor in some contexts
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Oct 2, 2021 21:05
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Hawkperson posted:this isn't really related to the conversation at hand but you can borrow from a relative minor, because there's multiple minor scales and they don't all totally align with the major. like you could say D# hanging out in a G major piece was borrowing from E minor in some contexts mm so like G major could borrow from E harmonic minor? Never thought about it that way before! Can you think of an example where this analysis would apply?
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Oct 2, 2021 21:27
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Honestly no lol, most of the time if you’ve got a sharp five like that it’s more easily explained by secondary dominants. I really enjoy the little technical mathematical proof-style observations in theory, is all.
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Oct 2, 2021 21:30
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Although I should say that it’s something that sooooometimes shows up in Mozart symphonies. So it’s not like purely theoretical, but even there it’s more just Mozart loving around
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Oct 2, 2021 21:32
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I was gonna say, it would take a lot for me to resort to that analysis! Like, I would need to hear a G major tune hit at least two of the following: B major, G augmented, D# diminished.  If i only hear one of those chords, i would probably think about parallel modes they could be borrowed from, before i look at possible borrowing from the relative harmonic minor the B major i would just accept as a chromatic mediant, without thinking of where it could have come from! and i honestly wouldn't bat an eye at the D# diminished, if its acting like a F# diminished (which would be diatonic) if I encountered the G augmented..... i would probably say "G whole tone scale" haha Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 2, 2021 |
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Oct 2, 2021 21:38
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Haha, yeah I’d be deeply curious at an augmented I chord that wasn’t involved in modulation to a new key. I bet some horror movie score has that somewhere.
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Oct 2, 2021 22:10
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Hawkperson posted:Yes, your waltz is in 3 and you can absolutely call it a waltz. The restricting criteria of a waltz is mostly in the dancing and your waltz is very danceable (also even that is up to one’s discretion; there’s more than a few classical “waltzes” that aren’t very good for dancing to). Lots of them have that “boom chick chick” accompaniment pattern but it’s not a requirement at all. ooooo  Alright, it’s successfully waltzable then! More than I expected going in, to be honest.Helianthus Annuus posted:I wouldn't think to use the word "tonic" to talk about that G in the bass, because it doesn't change. I think of "tonic" as something you resolve to, and the tension only increases in this recording. Huh, okay. Interesting. I’ve been thinking of “tonic” as the answer to the question “no, really, what key is this in?”. I guess it’s not that simple. quote:I think that kind of voice leading sounds great, so i encourage it! but, i like to hear the bass note move around, not just stay the same -- so i would would like it if you use that smooth voice leading in the "inner voices" but give me some tasteful movement of the bass note. That is a good point. It did feel a little boring…definitely something worth exploring with other compositions. Helianthus Annuus posted:thanks for saying that Hah, FFT makes sense. Uematsu didn’t compose its soundtrack, oddly enough. Funny coincidence. Listening to it again, I actually also hear a bit of this one track from Tsukihime…I don’t know if that’s just cause I used strings, though. quote:Dm -> Gm -> Am is not so unusual -- the chords are all from D minor! the i-iv-v rearranged in terms of its relative major (F major) gives you: vi ii iii -- the chords are all diatonic (means: no borrowed notes). Yeah, I recalled that I-IV-V is a common progression, so I figured I’d do the same here. (I just looked up the progressions online.) Looks like that progression might not sound the same for every chord, but it was nice enough so I went ahead. Never thought of it in terms of its relative major - that might be a good way to look at chords I’m unsure of…I’ll take a look at the differences between natural and harmonic, too! quote:Regarding the motion of the violin against the viola: it sound like you are describing counterpoint! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapuntal_motion Nice, so there is a name. I love that poo poo in music, it gives it this complex, well-developed quality that I find impressive. quote:EDIT: oh i forgot to give homework: play (or just track) these chords F -> Gm -> Am -> B -> C -> Dm -> E diminished (same as E minor, but with a flat-5 instead of a perfect 5th). The takeaway: these are the diatonic chords of F major (and of D minor), in order I ii ii IV V vi vii (or in D minor: III iv v VI VII i ii) So I get that F major and D minor are related, but is there anything about that relationship you can take advantage of when composing? Like, is there a particular trick to thinking of a minor pattern as majors or vice versa?
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Oct 3, 2021 03:13
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Also Occam’s razor dictates that the whole thing with those chords from before was definitely just me fuckin around. 
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Oct 3, 2021 03:15
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Also I think it's actually F -> Gm -> Am -> Bb -> C -> Dm -> Edim 
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Oct 3, 2021 18:50
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Pollyanna posted:Huh, okay. Interesting. I’ve been thinking of “tonic” as the answer to the question “no, really, what key is this in?”. I guess it’s not that simple. you are not wrong, you can think of "tonic" as another word for the I chord, or for the first scale degree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(music) I just wouldn't use that word to talk about a piece of music with no harmonic motion. Pollyanna posted:Yeah, I recalled that I-IV-V is a common progression, so I figured I’d do the same here. (I just looked up the progressions online.) Looks like that progression might not sound the same for every chord, but it was nice enough so I went ahead. a chord progression should have the same effect on the listener, regardless of the key. but you should think of I - IV - V in a major key and i - iv - v in a minor key as different progressions. Pollyanna posted:So I get that F major and D minor are related, but is there anything about that relationship you can take advantage of when composing? Like, is there a particular trick to thinking of a minor pattern as majors or vice versa? you can think of them as the very same key -- they have the scale degrees (notes), the same diatonic chords. The difference is which scale degree and chord you mean for the listener to feel as the tonic. Do you mean for them to feel a major chord as the tonic? Or a minor chord as the tonic? That's really the only difference between calling a piece F major or D minor. NB: you can change which note feels like the tonic during a piece of music, it doesn't have to stay the same (but it often does). in fact, you aren't limited to F and D -- any scale degree could be made to seem like the tonic, and they all have names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes this kind of blew my mind when i was learning about this stuff: all these scales have the same notes, but it feels completely different depending on which note you start and end on.
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Oct 3, 2021 19:27
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Pollyanna posted:Anyway, I got it into my head yesterday that I was gonna compose a waltz, because why not shoot for the loving moon apparently!! So I present to you all: So I’ve been thinking about this a bit, and I can tell there’s lots of room for improvement, but I’m unsure of what or how. One thing I identified was the rhythm - it’s very one-note. It’s always a heavy accent on 1, which is sort of an artifact of how I composed it. I mean it kinda works, cause this was never meant to be a fast-paced or exciting song, moreso contemplative and focused, but I can’t help but think that it’s too insistent and lacking in variety rhythm wise. I might try mucking about with it, maybe delay the melody by an eighth or some bullshit. Also oops there was a post: Helianthus Annuus posted:you are not wrong, you can think of "tonic" as another word for the I chord, or for the first scale degree. Got it. I should really brush up on roman notation, I think it’s a pretty critical component that I’m missing or at least lacking in. quote:a chord progression should have the same effect on the listener, regardless of the key. but you should think of I - IV - V in a major key and i - iv - v in a minor key as different progressions. Very fair! It might not be the exact same progression but it was still good, so hey. quote:you can think of them as the very same key -- they have the scale degrees (notes), the same diatonic chords. It’s not that strange, a song has to come to rest somewhere. But yeesh yeah this is getting more complex than I expected, guess I got a lot to ramp up on. I still need to wrap my head around the circle of fifths and these modes, too.
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Oct 19, 2021 04:03
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Pollyanna posted:So I’ve been thinking about this a bit, and I can tell there’s lots of room for improvement, but I’m unsure of what or how. One thing I identified was the rhythm - it’s very one-note. It’s always a heavy accent on 1, which is sort of an artifact of how I composed it. I mean it kinda works, cause this was never meant to be a fast-paced or exciting song, moreso contemplative and focused, but I can’t help but think that it’s too insistent and lacking in variety rhythm wise. IMO the melodies should be singable. From a singing standpoint, its kind of hard to sing this tune! Maybe a trained vocalist could make it happen, not me. But on the other hand, all of the motion HAS to come from the melody, because the harmony gets stuck on the same chord for a long time! Nothing wrong with that, everything has its place. You could put in faster chord changes, and that might be easier to come up with a cool melody -- one that moves thru the chord changes by making use of the chord tones! But it would be a totally different song.. Rhythmically, maybe try experimenting with more triplet rhythms? I guess this is how you program them into your tracker: https://forum.renoise.com/t/new-tool-3-1-place-selected-notes-evenly/45426 Other than that, maybe it would be good to do some faithful transcriptions/arrangements of your favorite melodies into your tracker, and then put wild, colorful chords underneath that melody to make something new? Pollyanna posted:It’s not that strange, a song has to come to rest somewhere. But yeesh yeah this is getting more complex than I expected, guess I got a lot to ramp up on. I still need to wrap my head around the circle of fifths and these modes, too. I wouldn't get too hung up the modes! There's another way to think about them, where you mutate the major scale in place instead of shifting it around. It's easier for me to think about it this way: Imagine the major scale. Give each note a number (these numbers are "scale degrees"). Assume 1 can't change at all. And 4 can't be flat, it can only be sharp! code:code:It's easy to change keys smoothly when the two keys share all-but-one note in common, but its harder when they share fewer notes in common -- you can use the Circle of Fifths to see which key changes are going to be easy, and which keys will upset your listener. (C -> Db, LOL)
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Oct 19, 2021 05:18
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Helianthus Annuus posted:IMO the melodies should be singable. From a singing standpoint, its kind of hard to sing this tune! Maybe a trained vocalist could make it happen, not me. Huh. Never really thought of it that way. That's one advantage that scores (and I suppose piano rolls) have over trackers - it's a lot more obvious how each note relates to the ones next to it. Maybe I should sketch the first part out in Musescore real quick -  What the gently caress? Uh, so a lot of the choices I made for sketching out a melody followed this video. Basically, each strong beat gets a note in the current chord. Any note. Which explains why it jumps around so much, and why it's so insistent on the strong beat.  It was enough to get me off the ground, but I should probably investigate other composition techniques.quote:But on the other hand, all of the motion HAS to come from the melody, because the harmony gets stuck on the same chord for a long time! Nothing wrong with that, everything has its place. You could put in faster chord changes, and that might be easier to come up with a cool melody -- one that moves thru the chord changes by making use of the chord tones! But it would be a totally different song.. Eh, I shouldn't get too attached to a single composition. There's interesting stuff happening in it, sure, but nothing I can't either mine later or grow past. As for the harmony being stuck on the same chord, yeah, by the time I started thinking about the harmony (i.e. the bass-y backing, uh, stuff) I was wiped out from sketching the melody, countermelody, and whatever that loving flute is supposed to be. So, I just left it as a reminder of what chord (key???) it was on. Can you tell I have no idea what I'm doing? quote:Rhythmically, maybe try experimenting with more triplet rhythms? I guess this is how you program them into your tracker: https://forum.renoise.com/t/new-tool-3-1-place-selected-notes-evenly/45426 Interesting - I'll try those out! quote:Other than that, maybe it would be good to do some faithful transcriptions/arrangements of your favorite melodies into your tracker, and then put wild, colorful chords underneath that melody to make something new? I've been transcribing some stuff, like from Deltarune, Devilish, etc. Most recently, I did Track 01 from Tsukihime (don't judge me too harshly). I came up with this, and besides the guitar VST being crap, it's a good example of countermelodies/counterharmonies. I like it a lot specifically for that! But it's really hard to understand the progression and how each note relates to each other when you view it in a tracker, which makes me want to switch to something with a piano roll instead. quote:I wouldn't get too hung up the modes! There's another way to think about them, where you mutate the major scale in place instead of shifting it around. It's easier for me to think about it this way: Interesting...I still don't quite understand what these modes are used for, but I'll definitely be investigating these! Maybe they can help inform how to make a good melody+harmony? quote:Regarding the circle of fifths: pick a starting key, lets say C. The keys on either side have all but one notes in common, F and G. But as you move further away from C, the number of common notes drops, with the fewest common notes between keys on opposite sides of the circle. C and Gb/F# Okay, so if I want to change key (which is separate from chord progressions, right?), I should consult the circle for the difficulty in doing so depending on my target key. I suppose I'd need to figure out what key I should move to - is that different from chord progressions? I still don't quite get the difference between being in a certain key (e.g. D minor), playing a certain chord (e.g. D minor I), and playing notes in a scale (all the notes in a D minor). The difference between a key change and a chord progression is also a little confusing to me. For example, I can tell that some short of shift is happening in the key/notes/scale in Track 01, but I can't identify what.
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Oct 19, 2021 17:10
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Pollyanna posted:I still don't quite get the difference between being in a certain key (e.g. D minor), playing a certain chord (e.g. D minor I), and playing notes in a scale (all the notes in a D minor). The difference between a key change and a chord progression is also a little confusing to me. For example, I can tell that some short of shift is happening in the key/notes/scale in Track 01, but I can't identify what. key changes by necessity are chord progressions; chord progressions aren’t necessarily key changes. Square/rectangle relationship basically. As a general rule the name of the key/the tonic sounds like “home.” If you’re not sure what key a song is in, you could try singing the melody and then stopping on a note that feels like the end, home, no need for more music. That note is almost certainly the tonic. If you listen to a chord progression and can’t easily find a “home” note, or more than one note could be “home,” it’s likely you’ve found a place where the key changes. That’s not a hard and fast rule, but you’re early enough in learning that I’d recommend treating it like one until you feel more comfortable with all the vocab and etc.
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Oct 19, 2021 19:03
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Got it. In that case, analyzing more complex compositions might make things hard on me. I tried applying this analysis to Track 01 listed up there, and the harmony (the lower octave piano notes) goes C->D->B->C. But that doesn't seem to be enough to figure out a chord progression (prolly cause there isn't one). I did find that the melody piano is always roughly about 5 semitones above the harmony piano, and checking the notes when you do that reveals that the notes are something like C D E F# G A B. Based on the above, that'd make the melody piano...C lydian + 5 semitones or something? I have no idea what's going on, and it's probably more worthwhile to analyze other compositions.
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Oct 19, 2021 20:54
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I mean, any practice is good practice. I just think it’s easy to get caught up in gritty details when you’re first starting out that make everything seem way more complicated than they are. I haven’t listened to the track but C D B C in the bass implies a I ii V I chord progression which is fairly common. Since there’s F# maybe that’s I II vii I instead.
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Oct 19, 2021 23:25
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I thought G is the V of C, not B? I ii vii I is the closest to what I identified, yeah - but we might be splitting hairs in the end. Agonizing over exactly what the progression is is less important than the music itself. I also really need to internalize music theory as a descriptive lens rather than a set of building blocks. I've started to get too far in the weeds there and get distracted from actually creating.
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Oct 20, 2021 00:28
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It is, yeah but sometimes the chord is inverted meaning there’s a different note in the bass line. The vii diminished is a lot rarer than the V chord so even though the bass line is the 7th it’s prooooobably still a V chord. Diminished chords are seriously, seriously rare Edit: like seriously it’d be more likely to be a Imaj7 chord than a vii diminished odds-wise. But I should really listen to the song before making a judgment lol
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Oct 20, 2021 00:42
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Hawkperson posted:But I should really listen to the song before making a judgment lol check it out already, its weird! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhcLmWHlD_g right off the bat, the melody starts on an F over some kind of a C chord. would be interesting to see the midi for this. i tried to play along with it, and the ii - V - I in C major works along side it. Noodling a melody in C major also works. But the actual melody isn't really outlining those chord changes, at least to my ear. If anything, it does the opposite.
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Oct 20, 2021 02:35
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Pollyanna posted:Got it. In that case, analyzing more complex compositions might make things hard on me. this Track 01 is weird, it doesn't sound like the music I listen to! might be hard for me to analyze it too. something about the B in the bass... i find that disagrees with the notes in the other voices. And as i said, its unusual that the melody starts on an F over a C chord in the key of C major. Pollyanna posted:I tried applying this analysis to Track 01 listed up there, and the harmony (the lower octave piano notes) goes C->D->B->C. But that doesn't seem to be enough to figure out a chord progression (prolly cause there isn't one). I did find that the melody piano is always roughly about 5 semitones above the harmony piano, and checking the notes when you do that reveals that the notes are something like C D E F# G A B. Based on the above, that'd make the melody piano...C lydian + 5 semitones or something? I have no idea what's going on, and it's probably more worthwhile to analyze other compositions. can you show me where that F# is? I'm trying to hear a F#, but i just hear the F at the start. and F# sounds out when i play it on my guitar! I dont doubt that it could have been used somewhere in the middle without me noticing, tho.
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Oct 20, 2021 02:43
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thinking about this one again.. What i said about the unsingable melody? I was talking about singing that major 6th interval jump from F to D. Anyway, I was playing it on my guitar, and it has really grown on me! I guess, i would have liked it better if that got repeated and expanded upon, and treated like a motif. At least, thats what made me to enjoy it in my own playing! So maybe it doesn't have to be singable. I guess, if there's a problem with this part of the piece, it's that it had has too many competing melodic ideas, which are too different from eachother -- and that prevents them from complementing eachother, so they somehow compete for my attention instead. Once it starts the Gm part at 0m38s, I instantly like everything I'm hearing better. I guess because it's simpler and easier to sing?
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Oct 20, 2021 03:18
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It's a random track in a visual novel from 2000, I wouldn't expect music theory to have accounted for it. It sounds nice to me, but I'm insane, so it doesn't have to make sense through that lens.Helianthus Annuus posted:this Track 01 is weird, it doesn't sound like the music I listen to! might be hard for me to analyze it too. Complete shot in the dark here: maybe it's just not western convention? This is a Japanese composition, after all. I know that a lot of Japanese composers took inspiration from eastern modes and music theory, e.g. Ryu Umemoto used a lot of concepts from Zen Buddhism in his works.  quote:something about the B in the bass... i find that disagrees with the notes in the other voices. And as i said, its unusual that the melody starts on an F over a C chord in the key of C major. I think I might know why that's done. Compare the original to this version with the melody piano and guitar pitched down by five semitones. When you do that, the melody and harmony start to look very similar:  And if you apply the same to the backup harmony (the strings), they also start to match:  But as you can hear in the previous clip, it all kind of blends together. It still sounds very nice, but it's a bit dour and monotone. It's important to note that the song isn't meant to be completely grounded and happy - in context, it represents a hospitable yet unfamiliar environment in the game. My guess is that the song was originally written with everything in the same chord(s), but for the sake of harmonic variance and clarity, everything besides the bass piano track was pitched up five semitones. That'd explain why the melody starts on F instead of C. Why five semitones, I don't know - but it sounds nice to me. Five semitones up from C would make a perfect fourth, right? I don't really know what a perfect fourth is used for, but I recall that it has a measure of tension when compared to I, so maybe it's intended to elicit that. Investigation also led me to Laideronette by Ravel, which is very pretty indeed! And hilariously enough, the entire composition is clearly influenced by Japonism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSZKjaSOrw quote:can you show me where that F# is? I'm trying to hear a F#, but i just hear the F at the start. and F# sounds out when i play it on my guitar! I dont doubt that it could have been used somewhere in the middle without me noticing, tho. When the strings first come in, they play (A-E)-(G-D)-(F#-C#). (A-E) and (F#-C#) are on the one-beat. It adds some nice tension and uncertainty, but I have no idea why it happens. Maybe there's a key change...?
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Oct 20, 2021 15:45
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Helianthus Annuus posted:thinking about this one again.. I'm glad you like it! It doesn't surprise me that the second and third parts are better, the first part was written with (basically) a typing keyboard in mind, and it wasn't played live. That explains why it jumps around so goddamn much. It also followed these tips to writing a melody, and I needed to fill in some notes to go from D6 to F6 to A5. Cause I wanted a curve that still had the notes in D-F-A (which is just C-E-G shifted up one white key ).Agreed on too many melodic ideas. I spent like an entire day on the thing trying to add something new wherever I could. Interesting to note that they're competing against each other, cause the more I listen to it the more that makes sense. Especially that goddamn flute. There's good stuff in here, and there's a bunch of individual musical ideas that sound good, and some of them play off of each other well! Part 2's lead melody and countermelody, and part 3's countermelody are my favorite parts. Just that the rest doesn't play along well. It's a bunch of ideas thrown together without much thought to the overall composition, which is probably why the melody+countermelody is my favorite part.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:01
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Triple post!! I've been reading about the difference between tonality (major and minor) and modality (Ionian et al.). I think that might explain a lot of what I've composed in the past - I tend to stick to the white keys, but instead just start from D or F or something. That's effectively modal, not tonal, and I've been trying to fit all of my old compositions into majors/minors when they never were to begin with. Man. This hurts my head. I'm just gonna make music and see what happens.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:43
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decided to start over on the HVL (it's been a while since i was reading it, got pretty far but needed to start over) and this time, i'm getting chromatics!! i'm still early in the reread, but here's something i was goofing with in ableton as i worked through it, there's a chromatic half step passing tone in the second phrase, and a chromatic neighboring note in the third. passing tone isn't as successful as the neighboring one, but i think i figured out how to make it workable. https://vocaroo.com/11yHENAvnUIe
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Oct 24, 2021 05:17
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after the HVL, i'm gonna read twentieth century harmony and work through that in the same way, because then, either: it'll help me compose more and teach me a lot, which would be good OR, i'll have learned everything already in the HVL and i'll be able to tell adam neely watching teens about how that poo poo is for babies and i read HVL like a real composer
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Oct 24, 2021 05:21
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Pollyanna posted:Triple post!! to me the most productive way to use and think about modes is vertically and for specific part writing, not piece writing. when you hear lydian in rock songs, you often hear its relative ionian for the melody. before i was thinking about this stuff a lot, it was really kind of difficult for me to think of it as more of a gradient -- analysis of a song becomes "minor verses, relative major chorus", instead of noting that the guitar parts followed the minor but the melody on top of them still begins and heads toward the major degree. use modes to create more interest -- they're useful for breaking out of "extremely major key" songs, or ones that are so minor key that they sound almost medieval and dark -- don't lock into them as specific keys in themselves, or you'll recreate the same problem.
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Oct 24, 2021 05:33
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Pollyanna posted:Triple post!! ya if you are using the white keys on the piano, and treating some note other than C as the root (or tonic) then you can call it modal. I dunno if its correct to say its "not tonal" though. I dont really know what it means to be "not tonal," other than like Schoenberg's stuff. speaking of chip tunes, video game music, do you like the Cave Story OST? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFbr3kjReok the man who programmed that game is said to be musically untrained, but the soundtrack is outstanding (to my ears). Apparently, he just went by feel, and it all worked out. He wrote his own tracker to write these too. Pretty impressive!
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Oct 24, 2021 16:23
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landgrabber posted:decided to start over on the HVL (it's been a while since i was reading it, got pretty far but needed to start over) and this time, i'm getting chromatics!! i'm still early in the reread, but here's something i was goofing with in ableton as i worked through it, there's a chromatic half step passing tone in the second phrase, and a chromatic neighboring note in the third. passing tone isn't as successful as the neighboring one, but i think i figured out how to make it workable. the triplets are cool, but the lack of rhythmic variation gives it a robot-feel. each note is the same length! landgrabber posted:use modes to create more interest -- they're useful for breaking out of "extremely major key" songs, or ones that are so minor key that they sound almost medieval and dark -- don't lock into them as specific keys in themselves, or you'll recreate the same problem. ya i agree, its not very common to write a song that is entirely modal. that is, following those note choices like its the law vs. tastefully throwing in a flat-7 over a major key, or natural-6 over a minor key, or whatever to generate interest and affect the listener somehow
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Oct 24, 2021 16:32
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Major (Ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) are modes so saying modal music isn’t common is kinda weird. Plus a very, very long list of pop/rock music is in mixolydian. Much more common to see a flat 7 in that kinda music than a leading tone
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Oct 24, 2021 16:35
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I was thinking about it in the shower lol and realizing that “pop music uses mixolydian” was true when I was a kid but it’s not as ubiquitous anymore. I suspect there’s a correlation between more pop stars using piano as a main instrument and leading tones getting more popular, but idk. All those rock bands that were all about the power chords were playing in mixolydian most of the time tho
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Oct 24, 2021 16:55
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Hawkperson posted:Major (Ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) are modes so saying modal music isn’t common is kinda weird. Plus a very, very long list of pop/rock music is in mixolydian. Much more common to see a flat 7 in that kinda music than a leading tone oh word, i don't count the major or natural minor as "modal," but you wouldn't be wrong to say that its in a mode. i would call it "modal" if it stays in Dorian, Phrygian, and especially if its Locrian. Also Lydian! But not Ionian or Aeolian. But i can't stop you from calling it all "modal". Hawkperson posted:Plus a very, very long list of pop/rock music is in mixolydian. Much more common to see a flat 7 in that kinda music than a leading tone hm. i don't think of Blues (for example) as the same thing as mixolydian mode! but, if the flat 7 is playable, and the minor 3rd is unplayable, then i wouldn't argue with you about calling it "mixolydian" and therefore "modal". But the minor 3rd and major 3rd are both playable in bluesy music! And to me, "mixolydian" means the natural-7 and minor-3rd are unplayable. when an unexpected flat-7 is present, theres so many names for this phenomenon. secondary dominants? borrowing from the parallel minor? or maybe just call it mixolydian. but somehow, the flat-7 comes up much more often than a flat-2 or sharp-11. So i think of the flat-2 or sharp-11 as somehow "more modal" than the flat-3 or flat-7. I wonder if this will make sense to you, or if you will agree with my perspective.
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Oct 24, 2021 17:10
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Hawkperson posted:I was thinking about it in the shower lol and realizing that “pop music uses mixolydian” was true when I was a kid but it’s not as ubiquitous anymore. I suspect there’s a correlation between more pop stars using piano as a main instrument and leading tones getting more popular, but idk. All those rock bands that were all about the power chords were playing in mixolydian most of the time tho weezer always did a lot of voice leading actually and it's why they banged and a lot of power chord bands did not
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Oct 24, 2021 17:26
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hmm. I was thinking too about how "modal jazz" is a thing in and of itself that is pretty unrelated to how western music theory usually talks about modes. It seems like you think about modes as rarer/more surprising components, whereas to me and I think? most western classically trained people they're just scales, you know? it's all modes all the way down lol. That is a great oversimplification but while I feel like I have some points I could make about how my way is totally superior lol I think in the end that's probably a buncha classist hooey. I think trying to nail down blues and blues-influenced musical genres by making them fit into European modes is probably not useful or culturally respectful. I should really pull out my jazz theory books and see what they think (but then again, a lot of them are white ppl trying to decide what Black music is, so perhaps not) I did end up googling "is blues in mixolydian" and learned that people loooove using the mixolydian scale to improv in blues charts, which makes sense.
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Oct 24, 2021 17:50
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Hawkperson posted:I was thinking about it in the shower lol and realizing that “pop music uses mixolydian” was true when I was a kid but it’s not as ubiquitous anymore. I suspect there’s a correlation between more pop stars using piano as a main instrument and leading tones getting more popular, but idk. All those rock bands that were all about the power chords were playing in mixolydian most of the time tho music theory shower thoughts  here's mine: if a metal song wants to put a flat-2 in the melody (as is its wont), and you wanna say "That's modal." then i agree, and i'm here for it. And especially if I hear a major-3rd, because it's then no longer just phrygian, but now its phrygian dominant! (a mode of the harmonic minor scale). So, extra-crispy modal!
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Oct 24, 2021 17:54
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Hawkperson posted:hmm. I was thinking too about how "modal jazz" is a thing in and of itself that is pretty unrelated to how western music theory usually talks about modes. It seems like you think about modes as rarer/more surprising components, whereas to me and I think? most western classically trained people they're just scales, you know? it's all modes all the way down lol. That is a great oversimplification but while I feel like I have some points I could make about how my way is totally superior lol I think in the end that's probably a buncha classist hooey. I think trying to nail down blues and blues-influenced musical genres by making them fit into European modes is probably not useful or culturally respectful. I should really pull out my jazz theory books and see what they think (but then again, a lot of them are white ppl trying to decide what Black music is, so perhaps not) yeah, its certainly useful to draw the parallels between different musics! if someone knows what to do when mixolydian is called for, that's a useful cue to have for playing in a blues context! but the use of the 3rd must be tasteful. that's when its good to be a musician instead of a musical theorist haha. i dont think its classist hooey, i think Classical Music is a different kind of music, which has received the most intense scrutiny from musical theorists. Other forms of music aren't always as precisely described! If you would like to learn about a more modern way to think about music, from a jazz perspective, and from a black person's perspective, then I encourage you to spend some time with Barry Harris and his ideas. Especially as a piano player!!! You could get so much from this, i think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JJncSUdUU
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Oct 24, 2021 18:01
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Hawkperson posted:Diminished chords are seriously, seriously rare if you think of music as Barry Harris does, i think you'll change your mind about this and accept that fully diminished 7th chords are a fundamental building block rather than a peripheral doo-dad. it might be the most important chord in his taxonomy! haha EDIT: by the way, i have to warn you: the way people talk about him... sounds like a cult sometimes! it can be weird. But i guess they are just giving credit, where credit is due. and I dont appreciate the way he says things like "they way they teach mainstream music theory is totally wrong". no, theres more than one way to think about stuff! but his way of thinking is very compelling (to me) and i haven't found anyone else describing things like this. Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Oct 24, 2021 |
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Oct 24, 2021 18:05
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ehhh, idk if this is what you're saying, but i take issue generally with the idea that music theory is universal and can describe all music. it's very culture bound. and I think the further you go from western classical stuff, the less use it has. it has basically nothing useful to say about microtones for example, and virtually no comment on the relationship of rhythms to pitches/chords/etc. That video was fun though, brought me back to my college jazz piano class. Thanks. I should really go practice my ii V Is again. used to be able to play them in every key but it's been a long time. bet I'd grok more of the video if I brushed up
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Oct 24, 2021 19:39
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Speaking of voice leading, this video in voicing and voice leading was incredibly helpful and also just good fun. Also Final Fantasy music! https://youtu.be/itj-6S1pMQ4 Helianthus Annuus posted:ya if you are using the white keys on the piano, and treating some note other than C as the root (or tonic) then you can call it modal. I dunno if its correct to say its "not tonal" though. I dont really know what it means to be "not tonal," other than like Schoenberg's stuff. Yeah I think what I meant to say is that I ended up developing via modes rather than major/minor. Maybe. Head hurty. quote:speaking of chip tunes, video game music, do you like the Cave Story OST? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFbr3kjReok Pixel’s phenomenal, yeah, and Cave Story is a banger of an OST. It’s a good reminder that music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive, and you don’t need it to make good music. I haven’t listened to the OST in a while, I should give it another go. I think it also has a lot of influence on me, somehow…it’s hard to talk about my influences when it basically boils down to video games and bands like Nine Inch Nails
Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 24, 2021 |
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Oct 24, 2021 21:13
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Pollyanna posted:It’s a good reminder that music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive, and you don’t need it to make good music. people use this the wrong way every time acting like it is insightful
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Oct 24, 2021 21:56
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