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I used up my pity getting Raiden and I'm back up to 100+ rolls again already (I started buying the Welkin and battlepass in January) so I guess I'm going to try and get Hu Tao? I dunno, they seem alright, I did her character story and wasn't like, super in love with the character by the end of it at all. I might just be kinda numb on people after playing it for so long though, since I still enjoy playing the game just fine!Reiterpallasch posted:assembling a coherent tier list in this game would be really weird because it's so dependent on what's already in your box and, in the case of 4* units, access to critical constellations like beidou c2 and xiangling c4. kokomi is bottom-tier unless you have ganyu/venti or ayaka/kaz but no mona, or if you have both ganyu and ayaka, in which case she's one of the strongest things you could hope to pull; how could you ever capture all the variance like that on a tier list without having it be like 82 pages long? and if you didn't capture it, publishing a tier list at all is very close to malpractice. It could maybe work as an introductory guide? 'These characters work great right out of the box' 'these characters shine at C(_)' 'These characters are flexible and tend to improve whatever team they're in' 'ZHONGLI' I wish this event would come with a complimentary Xinyan rework so she had something she was stat focused on, since they're giving us a free one.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:33
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RareAcumen posted:It could maybe work as an introductory guide? 'These characters work great right out of the box' 'these characters shine at C(_)' 'These characters are flexible and tend to improve whatever team they're in' 'ZHONGLI' Something like this would be fantastic
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Oct 3, 2021 21:37
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tier lists don't care what individual players have. hu tao's best comp is hu tao's best comp whether you have it or not the problem with tier lists isn't that it's some impossible task to assemble an accurate list, it's that people use them to avoid actually thinking for themselves
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Oct 3, 2021 21:44
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most of the 'glue'-esque units are 4*s is the thing. benny, diona, xing, xiang, sucrose. you can pair basically any 5* in the game with the international shell and have a decent team. so there's no real need for a 5* tier list that focuses on the bare minimum team.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:53
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Easiest thing to look at for teams and what works is the spiral abyss data. https://spiralabyss.org/floor-12
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Oct 3, 2021 21:59
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Quick, someone train a neural net where you tell it what characters and constellations you have, and it spits out 2 optimal team compositions at you, plus a "try to get these characters next" list
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Oct 3, 2021 22:02
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You know what? gently caress it. I'll give it a shot. Tier list arguments are more fun than relitigating how much reddit sucks for the 29th page in a row anyway. S Tier -- Universal Supports Xingqiu Bennett Venti Zhongli Kazuha Genshin is a game primarily about supports! It turns out that pretty much all the good carries are different versions of "make large colored number pop out of monster" and the thing that differentiates them is the off-field supports and reaction amps which let you supplement and scale the damage upward. These five characters are so overtuned and generally useful that they fit on pretty much any team, to the point where not being able to have two of them is a serious problem in Abyss. A+ Tier -- Literally Ganyu Ganyu In terms of peak team strength, versatility, and performance across the entire progression curve, no other carry is in the same zip code as Ganyu. A Tier -- Conditional Supports Fishl (Electrocharged tasers, electro battery) Albedo (Double Geo) Jean (Double anemo, abyss physics damage silver bullet) Rosaria (Reverse melt, double cryo Hu Tao) Mona (Permafreeze teams) Diona (Permafreeze teams) Raiden (Xiangling, Eula teams) Sucrose (Electrocharged tasers, VV amp) Childe (Xiangling teams) There's a lot of units in this tier! That's because there's a lot of good supports in Genshin. All of these units enable you to play at least one very powerful team composition. This means that they can either be at the top of the tier list if you have the other parts of the composition, or near the bottom if you can't fit them into any of the teams they're good at. As a random call-out, Albedo is *really* only great in double geo, which doesn't see much use these days. Pull for with caution. A Tier also -- Really Good Carries Xiangling C4+ Xiao Hu Tao Ayaka Beidou C2+, if you squint and stay out of single-target fights Diluc Eula You really want two good carries. But they're largely interchangable. Some of these characters are better in some situations than others, or might fit your available supports better than others, but frankly pretty much all the well-designed carries in this game are on basically the same level given their best supports. Not you, Ganyu. Pick whoever you like. B Tier -- Substitute Supports Anemo Traveller (VV shred) Geo Traveller (double Geo) Ningguang (double Geo w/ C2+,Thrilling Tales) Electro Traveller (zany electro battery, kinda legit with beidou) Aloy (cryo burst support, cryo battery) Chongyun (bigger cryo burst support but no battery) Kaeya (distaff rosaria, better battery but no crit buff) Sara (for bursts that snapshot) Kokomi (copium mona is still really good) Sayu (VV shred, some healing) Sometimes you don't have access to the top tier supports, or maybe they're busy on the other abyss team, or maybe you just really like Kaeya. These supports are quite good and will work well on teams they synergize with; it's just that for some reason or another there's often a better alternative. B? Tier -- "You know Xiangling is free for everyone, right?" Tier Yanfei Klee Yoimiya edit: Bennett too lol These three characters do a lot of pyro damage! Pyro damage is the best kind of damage! Problem: Xiangling does a lot more of it, and unless you have Childe using any of these three will cripple your Xiangling team by stealing Xingqiu from her. If you have Childe, they become a lot better of a deal. C Tier -- Offbeat Carries Childe, not on Xiangling teams Beidou, when there's only one target Razor Ningguang Rosaria (permafreeze) Kaeya (permafreeze) Okay. Listen. All of these characters are honestly totally fine. You can beat Abyss 12 with them. You'll just have to have better equipment, and have better play, than someone who picked a more meta carry. If you're fine with that, don't let me stop you. D Tier -- If You're Desperate Tier Qiqi Keqing Barbara Noelle F Tier -- mihoyo why Amber Lisa Xinyan There is something busted about these kits. I'm not saying you can't make them work. Even in hard content! Xinyan was briefly extremely strong, for example, on that hellish Abyss 11 rotation with the energy draining debuff. And well, if you don't have any other healers, Barbara or Qiqi being bad shouldn't stop you from using them. I'm just saying that you will have to work a lot harder, and the ceiling for them is significantly lower, than everyone else. Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 22:08
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Razor's bad in terms of abyss but he's very good for getting through the story/open world exploration up to ar45 because literally all you have to do is give him a decent gladiator or martial artist set, slap archaic on him, and level that up. and his main ascension mats are hilichurl masks (easy to get) and wolfhooks (literally only he wants him)
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Oct 3, 2021 22:12
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Xingling is absolutely at xq tier at decent constellation
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Oct 3, 2021 23:11
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I think a constellationed Xiangling is probably the second best carry in the game, but I also think that you can do fine without any individual carry no matter how good as long as you have two decent ones. By contrast, playing this game without Xingqiu is suffering. Reserving A tier for just Ganyu was probably a bit cruel but I genuinely think there aren't that many "must-have" characters in the game and all of them are supports, and I wanted to get that across.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:14
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Reiterpallasch posted:I think a constellationed Xiangling is probably the second best carry in the game, but I also think that you can do fine without any individual carry no matter how good as long as you have two decent ones. By contrast, playing this game without Xingqiu is suffering. Reserving A tier for just Ganyu was probably a bit cruel but I genuinely think there aren't that many "must-have" characters in the game and all of them are supports, and I wanted to get that across. I think that Bennett maths out as better than Diluc with a TF team. So arguably he and XL are your other A tier carries.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:17
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lol, farming TF
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Oct 3, 2021 23:20
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the problem with bennett carry for an endgame player has always been that xiangling is dependent on bennett as a battery, so using bennett in the carry role cripples a stronger carry the same way that yoimiya/yanfei/klee do by stealing xingqiu. he's really good in a vacuum though! but nothing in this world is a vacuum. e: i guess the vacuum thermos i'm drinking tea out of right now is a vacuum. not your genshin box, though! Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 23:21
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The real issue with tier lists is that they're all aimed at people who are fairly far along and have access to the constellations, weapons, etc. to properly kit the character out. This is because the usefulness of each character varies huuugely depending on if you have their most useful constellations, if you have characters that complement them, if you have weapons that give them a huge power boost, if they have their second ascension passive, if you have specific artifacts they require to do their role (VV), if, if, if....and the longer you play the more these conditionals converge on "yes" and you start getting easy answers. The next-best thing you can do is to list the whole character roster with the following notes:
Bloody Emissary fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 23:25
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The problem with bennet, XQ, and XL, is that two of the three of them are usually required to make a team work and abyss requires two teams unless you're some kind of god. So one team is usually the weird underpowered team because I don't have most of the 5* characters used in the non-meta team comps.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:37
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frankly this is half the reason morgana-type permafreeze teams are so good, they don't compete for any of the holy 4* trinity
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Oct 3, 2021 23:39
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Reiterpallasch posted:D Tier -- Offbeat Carries https://i.imgur.com/Az9IPDp.mp4
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Oct 3, 2021 23:40
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Note Block posted:The problem with bennet, XQ, and XL, is that two of the three of them are usually required to make a team work and abyss requires two teams unless you're some kind of god. So one team is usually the weird underpowered team because I don't have most of the 5* characters used in the non-meta team comps. I solve that by playing none of them, that way both my teams always suck at Abyss12
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Oct 3, 2021 23:40
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Xiangling is D tier without a battery, change my mind
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Oct 3, 2021 23:45
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Taratang posted:A general reminder about how subjective tier lists are, this particular "D-Tier" carry is capable of not just clearing the Abyss - she's the go-to for some of us who 36* it every rotation (and F2P as well). classic tierlist problem, seeing a character you use next to a bad letter and it's a whole issue is the description for D tier particularly off base, regardless of D seeming like a harsh letter to use? because it says she clears Abyss fine and the lower rating is a byproduct of investment/mechanical skill needed relative to higher performing characters
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Oct 3, 2021 23:52
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Taratang posted:A general reminder about how subjective tier lists are, this particular "D-Tier" carry is capable of not just clearing the Abyss - she's the go-to for some of us who 36* it every rotation (and F2P as well). i specifically said that she can do it!! but it's not subjective at all to say that she'll need better gear. and what's even the point of going "f2p btw" with a goddamn skyward atlas on? edit: lost prayer? i think both of the book shaped catalysts with corner wings are 5*? if i missed one feel free to laugh at me. gandlethorpe posted:Xiangling is D tier without a battery, change my mind i cant because you're 100% right Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 23:53
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yeah i mean if you count letters down from A you'll eventually get to one that grade school conditioned you to think of as bad. ningguang is absolutely not held-back-a-year-bad. i did not mean to imply that by choosing letters instead of, iunno, numbers or something. there's very few actually bad characters in genshin.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:54
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The carry section should probably have something about mutual exclusivity in there, you're gonna have problems if you try to run Diluc and Hu Tao for obvious reasons. edit: upon giving it more thought, that bottom tier is kind of questionable. rear end tier should be "try to avoid these characters at all costs", and the only characters that are realistically that bad are Amber, Lisa, and Xinyan.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:56
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Taratang posted:A general reminder about how subjective tier lists are, this particular "D-Tier" carry is capable of not just clearing the Abyss - she's the go-to for some of us who 36* it every rotation (and F2P as well). its not that tier lists are subjective its that everyone in the game is capable of doing everything in the game with the only differences being investment needed in terms of constellations, weapons, artifacts, and team mates. the national team is good because tehy can all have dogshit artifacts and 3* weapons and still be only slightly worse than minmaxed, with the exception of xing really liking sac sword. noelle is bad (relatively) because a lot of her potential is locked behind c6 and weapons, artifact sets, and artifact stats that basically only she wants.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:57
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i will fully admit i have not really and don't plan to ever touch Ning because everything with her animations and whatnot just feels like rear end to me. but i look at that list and see Kaeya and also remember some of how you can/do play him involves stupid step cancelling stuff and think "ah yes, those two can have this tier." plus Razor is there because phys is the cousin of geo/anemo for having a harder time pumping damage in general
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Oct 4, 2021 00:01
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I hope if the new dogs' corrosion doesn't stagger, they eventually add something that does and put it in everything so that Ganyu can fall to F tier
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Oct 4, 2021 00:04
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gandlethorpe posted:Xiangling is D tier without a battery, change my mind She is unusable without bennet, there is no other battery that can actually replace him for her. And it's not just the battery aspect, almost every XL tanks her atk in favor of other stats due to reliance on bennet atk buff. If you remove him out of the picture not only her uptime tanks, but so does her damage. About the tier list, diluc being on the ayaka/hu tao/eula level is kinda silly. And so is him being above klee and yoimia. He is one of the few characters in the game that I feel got actually powercrept, especially in single target department. Even dillucs with WG are kinda struggling with the abyss boss fights, especially compared to all the other 5* pyro carries.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:04
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AParadox posted:She is unusable without bennet, there is no other battery that can actually replace him for her. v  vIs it better? Probably not, but gently caress using Bennett
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Oct 4, 2021 00:07
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Also tier lists when artifacts are like 80% of a power dynamic talk to me when genshin becomes honkai and brand spanking new characters literally can't function or even keep up without their weapon+stigma
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Oct 4, 2021 00:09
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Selane posted:The carry section should probably have something about mutual exclusivity in there, you're gonna have problems if you try to run Diluc and Hu Tao for obvious reasons. Even those three are good to great with enough constellations, it's just that it's harder to get those constellations for them.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:09
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AParadox posted:She is unusable without bennet, there is no other battery that can actually replace him for her. And it's not just the battery aspect, almost every XL tanks her atk in favor of other stats due to reliance on bennet atk buff. If you remove him out of the picture not only her uptime tanks, but so does her damage. As an early Diluc main who spent the first six months of the game kitting him out (and then stumbling onto c2), I completely agree. I'm finding he's being completely outclassed by my c0 Ayaka with nowhere near enough investment and he can't hold up in floor 12 anymore. Might need to steal his very good artifacts for my Xiangling.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:09
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gandlethorpe posted:v The xiniyan in that team is a massive flex.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:12
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I did waffle a bit on Diluc. If I was bothering with having a B and a B- tier or whatever he'd be a minus. It's true that at higher investment Diluc absolutely can't keep up with Hu Tao in single-target because Homa is hilariously strong and her constellations are also much better, and the Perpetual Motion Machine in this 12 is a pure single-target encounter. But most people don't have 5* weapons or 5* constellations, Abyss will eventually rotate, and most chambers in Abyss are AOE to some extent, where Diluc really does have a small edge. What tipped it over for me was that Serpent Spine, though not-f2p, is way easier to guarantee than any specific gacha greatsword or spear, and also catastrophically overpowered.
Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 00:12
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I think rather than a tier list, something that would be really useful for newer players is a mid-level description of what each character is all about. It seems like most resources are either a basic listing of what the skills do, or a min-maxing guide of what the best weapons/artifact/compositions are. But it's not so obvious when you haven't tried or seen a character, what it actually does; that is what the gimmick is, or how it plays, how it's unique compared to every other character, and so on. Especially since how characters play is dependent on a lot of little details and interactions that are not obvious from a quick reading of the numbers.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:13
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People are clearing floor 12 9 stars with two four star units on each side with four star weapons. Does any of it really matter?
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Oct 4, 2021 00:13
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Redmark posted:I think rather than a tier list, something that would be really useful for newer players is a mid-level description of what each character is all about. It seems like most resources are either a basic listing of what the skills do, or a min-maxing guide of what the best weapons/artifact/compositions are. But it's not so obvious when you haven't tried or seen a character, what it actually does; that is what the gimmick is, or how it plays, how it's unique compared to every other character, and so on. Especially since how characters play is dependent on a lot of little details and interactions that are not obvious from a quick reading of the numbers.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:16
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Yeah I'm way less interested in the most powerful characters and team comps and would like to know more about various comps that don't rely on 2/3 or 3/3 national or kazuha and zhongli forever. I have all 4* and Yoimiya, Raiden, Kokomi as my 5* event characters plus various c0-c2 standard banner 5* characters. If every team relies on national members, I'm always going to be frustrated and confused when trying to build out additional teams without them. I've heard Fischl and Beidou are good together so who else can I jam in there that's not a national member or an older event 5* (and not raiden since she's actually on my national team lol) edit: VVVVV yeah this, I want this! VVVVV Note Block fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 00:17
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dividing characters into groups like "build around", "package" and "support" might be easier, with characters like beidou and xiangling falling into the "package" category. if you start from eula/hutao/tartaglia/whatever and then need to fill in a team, the package characters that work well with the character you're building around fill out the teams pretty naturally despite ranking pretty poorly on both the "damage dealer" and "support" tier lists.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:18
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Reiterpallasch posted:i specifically said that she can do it!! but it's not subjective at all to say that she'll need better gear. and what's even the point of going "f2p btw" with a goddamn skyward atlas on? The F2P comment was just to make it clear that this particular outlier wasn't due to whaling. F2P players can expect to have a 5* weapon or two after a year's play (it is a Lost Prayer btw) and see good results on an "off-meta" character. Taratang fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 00:20
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you know what, that's totally a fair point. i don't know if anyone is ever going to look at this after hitting the next page but i'll edit the letter grades, it doesn't lose anything and gains clarity. e: done Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 00:23
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