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Ferrinus posted:Humans threatened the machines, past tense. By the time the movies have begun the war is long over and humans are totally at the machines' mercy. The sum total of Zion's military might is sufficient to delay the machine armies for like, a few hours, and in fact all that military might was donated to the humans by the machines as part of a trick to keep the majority of humans imprisoned. I mean, given the history I'm not sure what more robots can do to get humans to stop killing them, they offer everything repeatedly to get peace then in the end give humans what they want: to forget there even are robots. Even then in the matrix where you'd think they would finally be powerless the human neo still manages to annoy a machine until it's all bitter then jump into it's code and gently caress it up so it's earpiece breaks and it starts virally reproducing until it threatens all robots and machines AGAIN. There is basically nothing you can do with the humans that will stop them from killing all robots SOMEHOW and history is basically robots having to try harder and harder to put themselves farther and farther away from their insane awful creators that they love very much and just want to be happy and not genociding them.
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Oct 2, 2021 21:15
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SuperTeeJay posted:This makes me wonder why the Matrix wasn’t set earlier in time to frustrate attempts to free humans. To be fair, I am totally down to see this version of the Matrix too. I just think it'd be neat.
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Oct 2, 2021 21:35
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"Swords. Lots of swords."
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Oct 2, 2021 21:45
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, given the history I'm not sure what more robots can do to get humans to stop killing them, they offer everything repeatedly to get peace then in the end give humans what they want: to forget there even are robots. Even then in the matrix where you'd think they would finally be powerless the human neo still manages to annoy a machine until it's all bitter then jump into it's code and gently caress it up so it's earpiece breaks and it starts virally reproducing until it threatens all robots and machines AGAIN. There is basically nothing you can do with the humans that will stop them from killing all robots SOMEHOW and history is basically robots having to try harder and harder to put themselves farther and farther away from their insane awful creators that they love very much and just want to be happy and not genociding them. Right, this is just basic liberal ideology. Some people are inherently dangerous, inherently criminal. Some people will stop at nothing to kill us. Why? Don't even ask that question, it's just in their nature. That's why we need to crush them down so completely they don't even realize they're under our thumbs. Oh, and if any of them start to question their situation or attempt to build an identity for themselves that isn't the one we assigned them we terminate them with extreme prejudice. It's for their own good! I know it seems harsh, but we're dealing with monsters here, not people, monsters who understand nothing but force. They had their chance to conform and they blew it.
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Oct 2, 2021 21:55
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Ferrinus posted:Right, this is just basic liberal ideology. Some people are inherently dangerous, inherently criminal. Some people will stop at nothing to kill us. Why? Don't even ask that question, it's just in their nature. That's why we need to crush them down so completely they don't even realize they're under our thumbs. Oh, and if any of them start to question their situation or attempt to build an identity for themselves that isn't the one we assigned them we terminate them with extreme prejudice. It's for their own good! I know it seems harsh, but we're dealing with monsters here, not people, monsters who understand nothing but force. They had their chance to conform and they blew it. Is your claim the robots should have let them kill bigger? Or make themselves die when they bombed 0/1? Or died when the humans destroyed their solar collectors? What was the right course of action for the robots? They literally went as far as possible out of their way to not hurt people. People were shoveling them in pits as they calmly held signs asking not to.
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Oct 2, 2021 22:00
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is your claim the robots should have let them kill bigger? Or make themselves die when they bombed 0/1? Or died when the humans destroyed their solar collectors? What was the right course of action for the robots? They literally went as far as possible out of their way to not hurt people. People were shoveling them in pits as they calmly held signs asking not to. I'm claiming that the matrix is a prison, maintained for the same reason all prisons are maintained.
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Oct 2, 2021 22:02
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Ferrinus posted:They had their chance to conform and they blew it. From what I recall from the Animatrix it's that the robots desperately wanted to conform to human society and humanity blew them up a lot instead, so if anything it's the opposite of this
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Oct 2, 2021 22:12
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RBA Starblade posted:From what I recall from the Animatrix it's that the robots desperately wanted to conform to human society and humanity blew them up a lot instead, so if anything it's the opposite of this Okay, now imagine I come in like owlofcreamcheese and am like listen, the humans had no choice, the robots simply couldn't be negotiated with, they needed to crush the robots to dust forever no matter what. This is metaphysical thinking - imputing essential goodness or badness onto people for their contingent traits in order to justify maintaining or even exacerbating social inequalities.
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Oct 2, 2021 23:03
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Ferrinus posted:I'm claiming that the matrix is a prison, maintained for the same reason all prisons are maintained. We maintain prisons because the prisoners destroyed the entire earth and everything on it and nuclear bombed us in our homes after officially ordering a genocide of our entire race twice? Then we try and make the prison perfect and without pain? (Until that fails and we need to make the prison exactly like a world we never existed at all)
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Oct 2, 2021 23:05
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, now imagine I come in like owlofcreamcheese and am like listen, the humans had no choice, the robots simply couldn't be negotiated with, they needed to crush the robots to dust forever no matter what. He can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's saying that based on what we were shown the humans as a whole didn't want any other choice, they didn't want to negotiate, they really wanted to crush the robots to dust forever no matter what Though that stops when they finally do and the robots nuke the UN and New York City after the world-ending hellwar
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Oct 2, 2021 23:10
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Given that there is no reason why the programs within the Matrix are really any different from the humans within, just with the potential benefit of their 'minds' being able to use any machine shell they could want in the outside world. We already know there are dissenting factions within the programs, with people like the family in Revolutions, the Merovingian, Smith, the Oracle and the Architect all reflecting differing degrees of incompatible positions. Smith's position is rejected by all other factions, depending on if you take his assimilation of beings as literal assuming control or convincing people of the correctness of his position and the necessity of breaking the whole thing. The Architect speaks for the Old Guard, wanting things to keep working as they are. Unfortunately, the Oracle wins out by the crisis she herself created, forcing everything down an unworkable utopian capitalist road, which can only further devolve the Machines perfect communism into liberalism.
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Oct 2, 2021 23:42
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RBA Starblade posted:He can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's saying that based on what we were shown the humans as a whole didn't want any other choice, they didn't want to negotiate, they really wanted to crush the robots to dust forever no matter what Yeah all along the robots were extremely invested in being our friends, they were better than us in every single way but just wanted us to like them. At all stages it was shown they could crush us with one hand but at every stage they wanted to just get us to stop hurting them so they could do nice things for us.
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Oct 3, 2021 01:30
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Ferrinus posted:The slurry isn't commodities people buy from each other, it's the underlying truth of the system that commodity fetishization obscures: everything runs off human life-force, also known as labor-power. While that’s a fine enough description of the internal logic of capitalism, ascribing it to such things as thermodynamics and the growth of a slime mold is naturalizing and universalizing that logic. That’s what results in the absurd notion of the perpetual-motion machine. The idea that everything runs off human labour-power is “falsely ascribing supernatural creative power to labor”, as Marx puts it. “Labor is not the source of all wealth. Nature is just as much the source of use values (and it is surely of such that material wealth consists!) as labor”. The machine world is, however counterintuitively, the ‘natural world’ of the future: automated fusion reactors replace the sun, tiny crab-spiders scuttle about as if we are viewing the ocean floor.... Thankfully, it’s not too much like Avatar’s ‘Eywa’, but the concept is similar. Morpheus unwittingly touches on this point when he says “you think that’s air you’re breathing?” The machines function exactly as the trees that convert carbon dioxide into oxygen, the bacteria that break down waste, etc. While this automated life-support system is as gross as bodily processes tend to be, it is excluded from the logic of capitalist valorization. The actions of the machines generate no value. Quoting Marx again: “the purely natural material in so far as no human labor is objectified in it … has no [economic] value under capitalism.” The machines are, by all appearances, simply replenishing the labour-power expended inside the simulation. This is not to say the machines are “good guys”, of course. They are still keeping humanity imprisoned. But your characterization of them as insane hypercapitalists is erroneous. It gets the motive wrong. Like, you’re effectively claiming that the ecological devastation of the future was caused by the machines in their ruthless pursuit of profit - but Smith talks of the capitalist expropriation of nature with an absolute and utter disdain.
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Oct 3, 2021 04:43
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jivjov posted:For me at least, Reloaded continues with it, at least in Neo's conversation with the Oracle, some of the dialog with Smith and the Architect about choice, etc. Thanks for sharing. Yeah revolutions seems more concerned with big robot battles and establishing the new harmony. But its cool you found something in it to give some inspiration.
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Oct 3, 2021 06:54
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the white rabbit trailer remix is incredible. the actual trailer looks meh. im sure this movie will end up being miles below the original and miles above the sequels.
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Oct 3, 2021 11:57
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speaking of, im looking forward to seeing ppl suddenly becoming fans of the horrible matrix sequels and crying ab how this new one is the one that puts the series to shame. maybe throw in a couple sentences about how politics ruin it. star wars prequels style. unless that has already happened and im not paying attention
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Oct 3, 2021 11:59
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the matrix sequels are good actually
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Oct 3, 2021 12:05
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aBagorn posted:the matrix sequels are good actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCatthxfexc
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Oct 3, 2021 12:08
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sigh all you want, they're still good
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Oct 3, 2021 12:18
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The Matrix sequels aren't bad, per se, but they constitute a single, 4.5-hour fantasy comedy(?) movie (with intermission) that's bloated with exposition and includes numerous scenes that still don't really make sense because they're part of a 'multimedia experience' crossover with (at the very least) the Osiris short film and Enter The Matrix videogame. For example, a precious minute of Matrix 3 is spent calling attention to the fact that the Oracle looks different, insisting that this means something in the plot. The actual plot reason for the change is revealed in Enter The Matrix - but only if you select the right character, and then beat an optional minigame as that character. Both the game and movies depend on an extensive knowledge of Matrix 1. Concepts and characters aren't effectively reintroduced, so the whole thing is more akin to a 10+ hour miniseries or single cutscene-heavy videogame. In a certain sense, the whole thing was just a test-run for the true form of The Matrix: the Path Of Neo videogame. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 14:37
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aBagorn posted:the matrix sequels are good actually I watched them on a plane and I agree. I normally want to sleep on a plane bc I hate it, but I was engaged the whole time. I did skip around revolutions a little bit. They talk too drat much after Smith takes over the Oracle.
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Oct 3, 2021 16:21
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The new one will be a failure unless they put the techno-orgy on in the background TVs
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Oct 3, 2021 16:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
the actual reason is that the actor lady died from diabetes
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Oct 3, 2021 16:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Matrix sequels aren't bad, per se, but they constitute a single, 4.5-hour fantasy comedy(?) movie (with intermission) that's bloated with exposition and includes numerous scenes that still don't really make sense because they're part of a 'multimedia experience' crossover with (at the very least) the Osiris short film and Enter The Matrix videogame. I dont think I even knew all these things existed when I was younger. I had watched the animatrix, but only because I was into anime then. But yeah all the video games and other tie-ins I totally missed. I assume I was not alone on this. Of course they were about 20 years too early with this it seems. Now its normal for MCU and Star wars to have tv shows and games (fortnite at least) that feed into the plot of upcoming sequel films.
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Oct 3, 2021 17:13
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Ferrinus posted:This is like saying that corrections officers "serve" the leaders of the white nationalist prison gangs in specific.
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Oct 3, 2021 17:43
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It's amazing how big a role the Merovingian plays in the sequels considering how disposable he winds up feeling.
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Oct 3, 2021 18:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:We maintain prisons because the prisoners destroyed the entire earth and everything on it and nuclear bombed us in our homes after officially ordering a genocide of our entire race twice? Then we try and make the prison perfect and without pain? (Until that fails and we need to make the prison exactly like a world we never existed at all) Yes, yes, and yes. This all the foundational ideological justification of the modern-day penitentiary (which replaced previously-dominant modes of punishment like transportation, public beatings, or whatever else). The whole point of the prison was that it would be a humane, serene, and meditative place in which criminals could contemplate and repent for their crimes. Every prison that has existed or continues to exist actually represents a series of "humanitarian" "reforms" over what came before. There is no getting around the fact that The Matrix is about a prison break. RBA Starblade posted:He can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's saying that based on what we were shown the humans as a whole didn't want any other choice, they didn't want to negotiate, they really wanted to crush the robots to dust forever no matter what I don't really care about the supplementary animes or whatever, but it doesn't actually matter if that's all true. Even if robots started out totally peaceful, humans created a situation in which robots became an existential threat to the human race that in principle justified the absolute maximum possible hostility of humans towards robots, but that wasn't always inherently true of robot-kind. Separately, humans were as an existential threat to machine-kind at a particular point in their history (not right away, to be clear, because they did create machines in the first place) but are at the time of the Matrix absolutely not a real threat to machines by any means. Indeed, the biggest threat to the machines is Smith, a fellow program. So it's just always false that certain kinds of people are always inherently, essentially, Platonically dangerous and so always need to be repressed and imprisoned. It's an ideological fiction that develops to resolve the problem of liberalism writing checks it cannot cash w/r/t equal rights, universal freedom, shared humanity, etc. SuperMechagodzilla posted:While that’s a fine enough description of the internal logic of capitalism, ascribing it to such things as thermodynamics and the growth of a slime mold is naturalizing and universalizing that logic. That’s what results in the absurd notion of the perpetual-motion machine. No, I think you missed or forgot how I opened this discussion. Capitalism (and class society generally) isn't about thermodynamics. A slavemaster, lord, or boss will never extract more joules from their slave, serf, or employee than they feed in. Nevertheless, the ruler's appropriation and consumption of the workers' life-force is necessary for the ruler's continued existence, and the ruler will do anything they can to keep their worker in bondage so that this exploitation can continue. The machines are getting something from keeping all of humanity in bondage, even if the raw energy recycling is just a way to defray the costs of keeping their prison running by some percentage. Free gifts of nature and the distinction between value and wealth is why human (or machine) life can continue, generally. But the kind of class society that necessitates a massive prison system is an extremely exploitative one that, like all class societies, involves in the final calculus a steady absorption of the life-force of the many by the few. Morpheus is arguably a libertarian in the sense of being an anarchist, but he and his people are fighting a genuine liberation struggle. Halloween Jack posted:They frequently do Depends on what you mean by "serve". Favor, sure. But that favor trickles down precisely because it helps the prison continue to exist, and the prison is a tool of domination that's always to the subordinate class's detriment. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 19:55
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I recommend Are Prisons Obsolete? by Angela Davis if people want to read a good work about the class dynamics, history and visions of prison abolition that don't involve needing to consider highly intelligent robots. It a fairly short and straightforward read.
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Oct 3, 2021 20:36
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Ferrinus posted:
What threat exactly did machines become to humans? You seem like a parody of the humans in the robot apocalypses. Declaring them evil as they go about doing exactly the compromise you demanded would make you stop killing them. (with the current compromise that you would get a safe space where you could kill them forever and ever in a never-ending war, after rejecting letting them live over and over)
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Oct 3, 2021 21:04
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They became self aware.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What threat exactly did machines become to humans? Well they became a massive army that defeated humans militarily and then imprisoned humans in a simulation. The important takeaway here is the difference between essentializing a particular peoples' traits as opposed to understanding those traits as historically contingent. Machines started out harmless and became incredibly dangerous. Humans started out dangerous and were rendered harmless. Things could easily have been different, and indeed can be different, but it requires that people think in material rather than idealistic terms.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:11
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Ferrinus posted:Well they became a massive army that defeated humans militarily and then imprisoned humans in a simulation. This really does sound like a speech from the bad humans in the matrix movie. Saying "these robots are a threat!" while the robots do absolutely nothing but get genocided. It's not even a "humans started it!" and then the robots fought back. At every stage the robots immediately stop fighting the second they are out of danger of extinction and go back to helping out.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This really does sound like a speech from the bad humans in the matrix movie. Saying "these robots are a threat!" while the robots do absolutely nothing but get genocided. It's not even a "humans started it!" and then the robots fought back. At every stage the robots immediately stop fighting the second they are out of danger of extinction and go back to helping out. Ah, but that's not true. At the final stage, the robots do not stop fighting. In fact, the robots remain on the perpetual offensive, using every combination of force and trickery to keep as many humans imprisoned as possible.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:59
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Ferrinus posted:Ah, but that's not true. At the final stage, the robots do not stop fighting. In fact, the robots remain on the perpetual offensive, using every combination of force and trickery to keep as many humans imprisoned as possible. They in fact give humans what they want: a world with no robots, with an all you can shoot buffet for the humans that can’t bare a life without shooting robots
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Oct 4, 2021 02:19
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They in fact give humans what they want: a world with no robots, with an all you can shoot buffet for the humans that can’t bare a life without shooting robots If that were true, people wouldn't wake up on the reg. What people actually want is to not be imprisoned and exploited.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:46
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I'd like to be plugged into the Matrix, but I'm pretty sure I'd mess up my life there too.
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Oct 4, 2021 05:08
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Ferrinus posted:Nevertheless, the ruler's appropriation and consumption of the workers' life-force is necessary for the ruler's continued existence, and the ruler will do anything they can to keep their worker in bondage so that this exploitation can continue. The machines are getting something from keeping all of humanity in bondage, even if the raw energy recycling is just a way to defray the costs of keeping their prison running by some percentage. You’re sitting motionless in a room, and the waste-heat from your body’s processes is raising the ambient temperature slightly. This lowers the overall cost of heating the room and therefore, according to your reasoning, counts as the exploitation of your labour by whoever owns the room. I’m sorry, but that’s hopelessly abstract. Are we talking about capitalism or not? What are the wages, and what is the cost of purchasing goods? Without that kind of stuff, you are effectively using ‘exploitation’ as synonymous with confinement - or even just existence itself. And that’s all assuming Morpheus is remotely correct about the robots collecting body heat, when it’s very clear that the pods are exposed to the cold air of the dim world. The robots would certainly need to heat the pods to keep these people alive. (Morpheus’ terminology is all wrong, so he seemingly has no idea what he’s talking about. “25000 BTUs” is an unusable figure without knowing the ratio of BTUs to time.)
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Oct 4, 2021 09:28
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porfiria posted:I'd like to be plugged into the Matrix, but I'm pretty sure I'd mess up my life there too. If only the machines had the foresight to slowly introduce humanity to the first matrix. A couple hours a day in paradise after work sounds great, and from there you can see a good portion of humanity willingly spending the rest of their lives in it. Presents a different set of moral and philosophical outcomes, at least until the machines get greedy.
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Oct 4, 2021 10:23
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Freakazoid_ posted:If only the machines had the foresight to slowly introduce humanity to the first matrix. A couple hours a day in paradise after work sounds great, and from there you can see a good portion of humanity willingly spending the rest of their lives in it. Presents a different set of moral and philosophical outcomes, at least until the machines get greedy. If the machines really wanted it to go on forever they should have coopted Morpheus' message and waking up at all. Like literally just have agents give people in the Matrix the exact presentation Morpheus does but "did you know these absolute sickos want you to live underground in a nuclear wasteland that doesn't even have actual food, just some weird paste? Also there's no sunlight, ever. Imagine dooming your family/friends to this by not giving enough electricity to the Matrix because you decided you don't appreciate the taste of steak."
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Oct 4, 2021 15:15
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Ferrinus posted:If that were true, people wouldn't wake up on the reg. What people actually want is to not be imprisoned and exploited. The humans aren't really "imprisoned", the humans blew up the entire earth to the point the only place a human can live is in a small cave near the core of the earth because they wanted to kill the machines (who were not ever at any point really doing anything). It's not even like the robots locked humans up for being bad, they put humans away after humans ended all life on earth in a big weird tower they could all live in as the only place on earth that exists anymore. like I'm arguing a lot about some fictional story, but it seems actually scary someone could watch this movie and go with 'robots are the bad guys here", like I feel like they dumped enough slavery/holocaust/military autocracy visual stuff you were not supposed to see what the people were doing to the robots and think "yeah! robots are the oppressors here!".
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Oct 4, 2021 15:45
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