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If you assume the Amdapori accidently created a Sin Eater-like creature by experimenting with large amounts of light-aspected aether, why wouldn't they revere it? It's basically a pure form of their power. Even if their behaviour is just like what we've seen on the First, feral and aggressive, it's not like people don't revere animals like that in the real world. And there's no telling if their creations were sentient, like Innocence, or retained their humanity longer after their transformation. Tesleen didn't immediately go blank, and some of the Sin Eaters in Eulmore were behaving themselves. Although Vauthry's presence likely had something to do with that.
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Oct 4, 2021 05:39
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With Vauthry and his size, I think it's important that he's physically huge too. Like when I first went into Eulmore I immediately thought something was not right with him. He's not just fat, the guy is huge, inhumanly so. Of course overtime that faded as you interact and kind of just lull you into oh it's just stylistic, but then I love how the story wraps right back around into oh he's huge because he's not human and never was.
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Oct 4, 2021 06:16
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I think it's more that, as a sin eater is the effect primal light has on living beings, so too would primal light influence you to have thoughts of pristine, perfect, unblemished things like the lion and angel you seen in the lost city. Similarly, primal darkness would lead to thoughts of growth, possibly unchecked growth, change etc... SirSamVimes posted:I think the other reason that they made him fat is that as well as conveying excess and stagnation, he is also meant to look like a giant baby. vauthry is a perverted cherub imo
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Oct 4, 2021 06:19
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There's something of an in-game visual explanation for what happens to a person when they 'become' a sin eater, in the form of those drawings of minfilia stopping the flood - more or less it looks like they're trapped within them like a suit of power armor gone rogue: 
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Oct 4, 2021 07:16
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Vauthry being extremely gross at least killed all the lust people had for Innocence, so that’s nice
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Oct 4, 2021 07:35
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:If you assume the Amdapori accidently created a Sin Eater-like creature by experimenting with large amounts of light-aspected aether, why wouldn't they revere it? It's basically a pure form of their power. It never seemed that the Amadpori had like, religious reverence for white magic, it was just a purely utilitarian thing. Orcs and Ostriches posted:Even if their behaviour is just like what we've seen on the First, feral and aggressive, it's not like people don't revere animals like that in the real world. And there's no telling if their creations were sentient, like Innocence, or retained their humanity longer after their transformation. Tesleen didn't immediately go blank, and some of the Sin Eaters in Eulmore were behaving themselves. Although Vauthry's presence likely had something to do with that. Yeah, I think it's less" behaving themselves" and more "Vaulthy's presence forced them to behave themselves because a Lightwarden enforces absolute order," but there's nothing actually going on in the creature's mind or lack thereof, either due to it being inherently mindless or just wholly feral and not yet given time to learn. Which incidentally makes all the Forgiven Veneries real hosed up! Whether or not you can have a "stable light-aspected being" is probably still an undecided question, since there do seem to be potentially "stable" dark-aspected beings. It's worth mentioning that there do seem to be notions of heavenly beings in Hydaelyn in general, too.
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Oct 4, 2021 07:45
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Jetrauben posted:It never seemed that the Amadpori had like, religious reverence for white magic, it was just a purely utilitarian thing. Heck, white magic was specifically a reaction to Mhach's development of black magic and subsequent war. And really, black/white magic is more a technique than anything else; the difference is in application. Both are freely siphoning aether from the surrounding lands. And conjury is just a nicer, Elemental-approved version  .I always liked the analogy that conjury is asking someone for some cash, and white/black magic is just punching them and stealing their wallet. Ziddar fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 08:08
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thetoughestbean posted:Vauthry being extremely gross at least killed all the lust people had for Innocence, so that’s nice i am very sorry to have to be the one to say this, but the assertion that no one is horny for innocence (OR vauthry) makes this one of the most naive and uninformed posts in this thread not made by cleretic like, at this point i don’t think there exists a single major NPC who doesn’t have even a single person shipping their OC with them, and vauthry (as in THAT vauthry, not innocence vauthry) definitely has more than one
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Oct 4, 2021 08:17
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FAUXTON posted:There's something of an in-game visual explanation for what happens to a person when they 'become' a sin eater, in the form of those drawings of minfilia stopping the flood - more or less it looks like they're trapped within them like a suit of power armor gone rogue: I could see this being more of a metaphorical thing, though. At the point this book is written, the fact Sin Eaters are people is definitely known. So rather than literally being 'the person is physically inside them', it could be a representation of 'the people we know are in there somewhere'.
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Oct 4, 2021 08:57
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I don't have much to add about Amdapori religion but I will point out that I think Amdapor is the only place in the entire game where we run into Light Sprites. So if anywhere on the Source was gonna pool enough light aether to get a few sin eaters, it'd be there.
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Oct 4, 2021 09:05
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Regy Rusty posted:I don't have much to add about Amdapori religion but I will point out that I think Amdapor is the only place in the entire game where we run into Light Sprites. So if anywhere on the Source was gonna pool enough light aether to get a few sin eaters, it'd be there.
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Oct 4, 2021 09:12
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:And as a healer main, it feels really loving dumb to assume I'm soloing much of anything. i won duels as white mage in bozja, canonically
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Oct 4, 2021 12:01
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Jetrauben posted:Hraesvelgr has some in his battle arena. Interestingly, they're called "holy sprites," which reinforces the idea that Hrasevelgr himself is a quasi-divine being. Also Hraeslvelgr just straight up uses Light and Ice magic.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:20
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Jetrauben posted:Hraesvelgr has some in his battle arena. Interestingly, they're called "holy sprites," which reinforces the idea that Hrasevelgr himself is a quasi-divine being. We also can infer that Midgardsormr and his children are basically Unsundered, as they come from another star, even if the latter were born on Hydaelyn, the eggs were carried there by Middy.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:38
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Hunter Noventa posted:We also can infer that Midgardsormr and his children are basically Unsundered, as they come from another star, even if the latter were born on Hydaelyn, the eggs were carried there by Middy. We can say that, but it's also not especially useful, because they're from a planet that never got sundered, so they're entirely disconnected from the concept. It's like saying that a Toyota cannot be legally played in modern Magic the Gathering; literally true, but completely irrelevant (or at least, I hope so; it's possible someone tried and they had to put it in the rules, I didn't check). By the same logic, though, the other 'unsundered' figures we've crossed paths with are Omega, and Gilgamesh. ...and you could make a weird case for Kefka, who (at least in the English localization) appears to be a replication of Actual FFVI Kefka, and not a character from Source-written fiction like the preceding Omega raids.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:51
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It is useful to say that dragons are whole souls in that, especially the great wyrms, they are extremely powerful and have strength beyond that of most sundered beings. All non-dragons on the source are necessarily at a lower level of potential than what a whole soul is technically capable of. Middy is weak right now, but at full strength is effectively on a power level akin to Ascians. Likewise, we see that even though dragons are not immune to tempering, that even a tempered great wyrm is still not fully enthralled.
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Oct 4, 2021 13:13
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If the sundering only happened to the one planet, how do the shards work with respect to the rest of the universe? Are they in different dimensions? What happens if you try to go from the First to another planet? They still have stars on the first so it's not like they're in a pocket universe.
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Oct 4, 2021 13:59
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We don't really have confirmations but given that Middy came to the Source and dragons seem to be absent on the First, one simple answer is that they're basically stacked pocket universes with the Source taking primacy.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:04
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yea obviously until we start getting post-EW content where we're expanding beyond the Ascian story the answer is currently 'dunno' but I think considering we saw no dragons in The First and we know for a fact they came from 'beyond our star' I think it's fair to assume that the shards are a bit more akin to pocket dimensions focused around The Source rather than full on vast alternate universes.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:10
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CJ posted:If the sundering only happened to the one planet, how do the shards work with respect to the rest of the universe? Are they in different dimensions? What happens if you try to go from the First to another planet? They still have stars on the first so it's not like they're in a pocket universe. It's best not to think about it too hard.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:11
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Jetrauben posted:Hraesvelgr has some in his battle arena. Interestingly, they're called "holy sprites," which reinforces the idea that Hrasevelgr himself is a quasi-divine being. Lord_Magmar posted:Also Hraeslvelgr just straight up uses Light and Ice magic.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:46
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Many dragons tend to have a single aspected power. See everyone's pals the Pyrodragon and Cryodragon in Sohm Al. Also the Erdodragon who apparently didn't want to be called the Levindragon. Nidhogg is the Dark aspected dragon and Middy is the Light aspected dragon. Light stuff tends to get dvinity-titled abilities. That's all.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:18
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iPodschun posted:My assumption is that this is a reference to Hraesvelgr having consumed the real Shiva. I don't remember if there's confirmation that the real Shiva was especially Ice/Light aspected the way Ysayle's Shiva is but it's consistent with the great FF universe's use of Shiva. Unlikely, the real Shiva appears to have been an Elezen of no particular power, simply a great love and capacity for peace-seeking. That's part of Hraesvelgr's initial discussion with Ysale, the ice powered goddess witch is something Ysale made up wholesale from whatever beliefs she had about the real Shiva and also Ysale believing herself to be the reincarnation of Shiva, which Hraesvelgr particularly found offensive given he still has Shiva's soul within him. Which well, maybe real Shiva was a great user of Ice magic, but certainly it's never mentioned in the story. Hraesvelgr and Nidhogg meanwhile definitely use Light/Ice and Dark/Fire respectively, which with the discussion about what is Astral and what is Umbral and the revelations of the first makes sense.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:24
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There's mentioned in-universe speculation in the Encyclopedia Eorzea that Shiva and Halone's legends may have been conflated to some degree, which may have explained some of the connotations Ysayle walked away with, especially given her history. Similar to the theory that Ramuh might've been based on Rhalgr. A very realistic situation, ancient myths with some commonalities kinda blending together over time.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:36
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Cleretic posted:There's mentioned in-universe speculation in the Encyclopedia Eorzea that Shiva and Halone's legends may have been conflated to some degree, which may have explained some of the connotations Ysayle walked away with, especially given her history. yea I really adore those little theories because they're 100% accurate and realistic to how myths evolve. Like, yea, of course it's possible Ysayle conflated her cultural touchstone of Halone's ice connections and all with Shiva's 'power', because even if that 'power' was likely just 'was one of the few of her era willing to fight for peace' to someone raised in a massively Halone focused society you can see how they'd go 'well and she also could shoot ice spears, right?'.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:37
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sexpig by night posted:yea I really adore those little theories because they're 100% accurate and realistic to how myths evolve. Like, yea, of course it's possible Ysayle conflated her cultural touchstone of Halone's ice connections and all with Shiva's 'power', because even if that 'power' was likely just 'was one of the few of her era willing to fight for peace' to someone raised in a massively Halone focused society you can see how they'd go 'well and she also could shoot ice spears, right?'. It also helps that Ysale herself is being a focal point of worship for her followers, who refer to her as Iceheart. At least her initial summoning attempt back in ARR was, her later summonings at that point have an inertia even if she's the only source of faith/belief because of course she'd transform into the same thing as she believes until she meets Hraesvelgr that she has in fact contacted/contracted the original Shiva.
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Oct 4, 2021 17:01
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Lord_Magmar posted:Unlikely, the real Shiva appears to have been an Elezen of no particular power, simply a great love and capacity for peace-seeking. That's part of Hraesvelgr's initial discussion with Ysale, the ice powered goddess witch is something Ysale made up wholesale from whatever beliefs she had about the real Shiva and also Ysale believing herself to be the reincarnation of Shiva, which Hraesvelgr particularly found offensive given he still has Shiva's soul within him. It seems likely to me that the original Shiva may have been a powerful heroine but still not, you know, a goddess. And of course if her soul really is still around in Hraesvelgr and it's not just poetic exaggeration, they've had a thousand years to refine whatever power she wielded in life. As for "quasi-divine" being contested, look, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has the massive reverence among his followers like a duck, wields vast transcendent magical power like a duck, can literally defy death like a duck and is already far beyond any human lifespan... I'm reasonably comfortable calling it a duck! Even if it may not technically be an insubstantial deiform entity! It's why I also consider the auspices demi-divine, even if they're not, y'know, omnipotent and omniscient; such entities are not uncommon in views of divinity historically. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 17:30
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We've never seen a real divinity in FF14 anyway, all the primal and demons and so forth are just mundane entities that amassed a high power level, there's nothing fundamentally different between them and mortals other than a quantity of aether
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Oct 4, 2021 17:39
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multijoe posted:We've never seen a real divinity in FF14 anyway, all the primal and demons and so forth are just mundane entities that amassed a high power level, there's nothing fundamentally different between them and mortals other than a quantity of aether Really it comes down to how one defines the word "deity," because in no small number of cultures that would be a perfectly acceptable object of worship. That said, Middy's pretty close, being an immortal unkillable dragon spirit of incalculable age and wisdom who considers the loss of his body a temporary annoyance.
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Oct 4, 2021 17:41
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yea honestly the Abrahamic view of 'deity' as some unreachable omnipotent and unfathomable power is massively in the minority to how most cultures have historically used it. Middy being able to outright shut down part of our soul is as close to that scale we get, yea, but 'a being of massive power and authority revered by a culture' is basically all 'deity' has meant for the majority of our history.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:13
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Jetrauben posted:As for "quasi-divine" being contested, look, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has the massive reverence among his followers like a duck, wields vast transcendent magical power like a duck, can literally defy death like a duck and is already far beyond any human lifespan... Didn’t this view lead you to arguing that primals are actually gods? You might as well call the WoL or Zenos divine, or the Ascians. It’s a fantasy setting, there’s going to be a number entities that fantastically powerful, that doesn’t make them divinity
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Oct 4, 2021 18:17
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sexpig by night posted:yea honestly the Abrahamic view of 'deity' as some unreachable omnipotent and unfathomable power is massively in the minority to how most cultures have historically used it. Middy being able to outright shut down part of our soul is as close to that scale we get, yea, but 'a being of massive power and authority revered by a culture' is basically all 'deity' has meant for the majority of our history. I don't think this is true? Most cultures seemed to have creation myths and gods entwined with fundamental aspects of reality, that's hardly unique to the abrahamic religions. Like primals like Tsukuyomi might represent the moon but she doesn't really do anything with it for real like Heilos actually pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot, she's just a moon-branded boss monster
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Oct 4, 2021 18:24
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Argas posted:We don't really have confirmations but given that Middy came to the Source and dragons seem to be absent on the First, one simple answer is that they're basically stacked pocket universes with the Source taking primacy.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:30
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thetoughestbean posted:Didn’t this view lead you to arguing that primals are actually gods? You might as well call the WoL or Zenos divine, or the Ascians. It’s a fantasy setting, there’s going to be a number entities that fantastically powerful, that doesn’t make them divinity Most people wouldn't care. A society in which multiple religions coexist is going to generally accept the myriad of gods people shove at each other. Now it might not be the state religion or the one with the celebrated shrines, but if its adherents pay their taxes and don't cause trouble they won't mind. Who'd want to stir up trouble by antagonizing people about the authenticity of their culture's deities? Sure, some people might claim the WoL is a god or that Zenos is a god but without them giving those claims any weight, those movements won't pick up steam. Another thing is that warriors of light are already a known cultural icon in XIV. Not every shard necessarily has sustained a lively mythos around them but the Ascians did basically plant the seeds for it. They also take many forms. The Zodiac Braves, for instance, are both cultural icons across many cultures and many of them were warriors of light too. Hogama posted:And even then the Seed of Destruction wound up on the First, not the Source. Did it come from space though?
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Oct 4, 2021 18:33
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multijoe posted:I don't think this is true? Most cultures seemed to have creation myths and gods entwined with fundamental aspects of reality, that's hardly unique to the abrahamic religions. Like primals like Tsukuyomi might represent the moon but she doesn't really do anything with it for real like Heilos actually pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot, she's just a moon-branded boss monster this is a weird comparison because even without going into the fact that Tsukuyomi is an actual major part of Japanese myth just pure in universe the only reason she was able to become Tsukuyomi was because of the mirror stolen from the Kojin that literally had the actual kami of the moon and stars Tsukuyomi in it. She's literally a moon goddess. There's no representation, she pulls a Shiva and literally destroys her moral shell to host a divinity.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:43
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sexpig by night posted:this is a weird comparison because even without going into the fact that Tsukuyomi is an actual major part of Japanese myth just pure in universe the only reason she was able to become Tsukuyomi was because of the mirror stolen from the Kojin that literally had the actual kami of the moon and stars Tsukuyomi in it. She's literally a moon goddess. There's no representation, she pulls a Shiva and literally destroys her moral shell to host a divinity. Shiva isn't a divinity, she's a Primal, as are all the Kami of the Kojin. Born from the fervent beliefs and prayers and ambient aether of the Kojin over thousands of years and activated by sufficient power storages. None of the divinities are actually gods in the sense that they existed and then people believed in them, people believed in them and that shaped them into existence. It's a huge deal about why the Auspices are different (they're very old animals grown powerful) and why the Primals need to be killed, because they drain the aether from the land by their very existences. Like when you first fight Susanoo Lyse and Alisaie straight up say this is a Primal and we have to get away because it will temper us. Hien (or at least someone in the Tsukuyomi lead-in) makes exactly the same statement against Tsukuyomi. All of which ties back into the fact that every living being still has access to the Ascian/Ancients creation magics, but because they no longer have the massive Aetherial Stores of the original Ancients and the method of creation that the Ascians teach is inherently flawed the Primals are destructive where Ancients creations are not. Presumably the Kami are created from a much slower form of the process by which a Primal normally is manifested. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 18:54
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sexpig by night posted:this is a weird comparison because even without going into the fact that Tsukuyomi is an actual major part of Japanese myth just pure in universe the only reason she was able to become Tsukuyomi was because of the mirror stolen from the Kojin that literally had the actual kami of the moon and stars Tsukuyomi in it. She's literally a moon goddess. There's no representation, she pulls a Shiva and literally destroys her moral shell to host a divinity. She has nothing to do with the functioning or existence of the moon though, she's just a representation of it given power and significance by a particular culture, that is the difference between real world conceptualisations of divinities and the FF14 concept of a primal. None of the primals do anything to maintain reality or the running of the world other than the two created to specifically to alter its prior state by humans, the rest are just big guys and nothing else.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:56
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multijoe posted:She has nothing to do with the functioning or existence of the moon though, she's just a representation of it given power and significance by a particular culture, that is the difference between real world conceptualisations of divinities and the FF14 concept of a primal. None of the primals do anything to maintain reality or the running of the world other than the two created to specifically to alter its prior state by humans, the rest are just big guys and nothing else. Yeah, Tsukuyomi is all representation, she's a representation of the beliefs of the Kojin, but she's also a representation of Yotsuyu's own beliefs, hence why the phase transition is her literally trying to power up by remembering her traumas that made her who she is today. Shiva in turn is the representation of Ysale's and her followers beliefs, not the real Shiva at all (which Ysale finds out when she talks to Hraesvelgr again and he's pretty pissed off about the whole summoning a weird not-real version of his lover and thinking you're the reincarnation of said lover). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 18:59
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Argas posted:Most people wouldn't care. A society in which multiple religions coexist is going to generally accept the myriad of gods people shove at each other. Now it might not be the state religion or the one with the celebrated shrines, but if its adherents pay their taxes and don't cause trouble they won't mind. Who'd want to stir up trouble by antagonizing people about the authenticity of their culture's deities? Sure, some people might claim the WoL is a god or that Zenos is a god but without them giving those claims any weight, those movements won't pick up steam. There’s a lot of people who antagonize others about the authenticity of their culture’s deities. We’re part of a group whose mission statement is one half telling people that those powerful creations aren’t actually gods. There’s also doctrinal disputes, things like any incarnation of Lakshmi being viewed as inherently flawed and therefore illegitimate by half of her worshippers. There’s people like Erik, too, who agree that the phenomenon of things like chakras happen but disagree on giving it any spiritual significance. Few people actually worship the dragons, even among the Ishgardian heretics, who prefer to worship Shiva. So by the line of argument that worship is what makes it a god, they aren’t gods. I agree with Jetrauban about the semi-divinity of the auspices but in the one case we saw where one was being actively worshipped, in the backstory of the Seiryu, Seiryu didn’t really care for the worship and the worshippers eventually sent mercenaries to kill him. So the question of whether they are divinities is more muddied when the one case of genuine worship we see is based on a misunderstanding.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:20
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thetoughestbean posted:Didn’t this view lead you to arguing that primals are actually gods? You might as well call the WoL or Zenos divine, or the Ascians. It’s a fantasy setting, there’s going to be a number entities that fantastically powerful, that doesn’t make them divinity I mean... yes? Primals are literally referred to as deiform entities. It's sort of always been an awkward element of the whole thing, even as the narrative also treats them as false idols representing not any higher truth but a corruption of the devotion of their adherents. Multiple characters even explicitly call out the biases of the Scions in proclaiming that primals must be destroyed even as the narrative ultimately backs it up; this tension has always existed. Even Alisaie's statement to the kobolds that they respect the kobolds' faith is...well, it's kinda loaded, because the kobolds don't just worship a non-personified non-anthropomorphic Earth, they worship Titan, specifically, and manifest an image of their god as a primal. Primals are, definitionally, gods. They are also false idols of human (or beastman) conception. But "god" does not denote "cosmic entity", necessarily, and as seen with the belief in the kami (who seem to be real enough to grant blessings) there's lots of cultures in Hydaelyn which believe in a smaller conception of divinity. The best word for primals really is probably "idol," but they are also, at the same time, divine. Hraesvelgr is definitely considered holy by his followers; the moogles refer to Zenith as holy. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:29
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