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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The humans aren't really "imprisoned", the humans blew up the entire earth to the point the only place a human can live is in a small cave near the core of the earth because they wanted to kill the machines (who were not ever at any point really doing anything). It's only in the animatrix that we see the machines point of view and we come to realize that they represent the best of humanity as well, that they didn't start the war, they didn't scour the sky, there was no worldwide nuclear holocaust initiated by skynet. This sets up the sequels where the point is no longer defeating the machines but joining with them against a common threat.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You’re sitting motionless in a room, and the waste-heat from your body’s processes is raising the ambient temperature slightly. This lowers the overall cost of heating the room and therefore, according to your reasoning, counts as the exploitation of your labour by whoever owns the room. You're getting too hung up on the body heat. Ferrinus posted:If you're a boss, and you hire me as an employee (or if you're a slaver and you capture me in wartime, for that matter), then you become the de facto provider of all my means of subsistence. All the food I eat needs to be paid for by you in the form of wages (or by you in the form of you just, buying food and bringing it back to your slave camp). And you've got the same problem as the machines: no matter how many calories of energy you give me, you are going to get fewer calories back out of me. I need to waste some of that precious energy maintaining homeostasis before I can use the rest cobbling shoes for you or whatever. You can't beat thermodynamics. I'm a net loss. So how can you possibly make profits? Why would you ever bother to employ or enslave anyone? Exploitation isn't synonymous with confinement. However, mass confinement in an advanced economy is intimately and unavoidably tied to the maintenance of exploitation. Smith himself calls the people inside the matrix "crops", so the fairest bet is that Morpheus is right and the machines are indeed feeding off the humans directly in some way (neural processing power, some sort of chemistry that requires human metabolic processes, whatever), but even if the humans of the matrix are a net resource loss in all ways to the machines maintaining the matrix that doesn't change the basic situation because so are real-life human prisoners. Prisoners cost more money than they make back. But the fact of prisoners allows class exploitation, generally, to continue functioning. The basic premise that the matrix is an act of charity and therefore that attempting to escape it can only be an act of hubris or confusion or something just doesn't scan. That's not how prisons work! Owlofcreamcheese posted:The humans aren't really "imprisoned", Yes, they are. This is just a lie. If you think they're being imprisoned for their own good due to their inherent savagery or that they deserve it because they've racked up an immense blood debt or whatever, that's your prerogative, but please be honest. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 16:44
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Ferrinus posted:Yes, they are. This is just a lie. If you think they're being imprisoned for their own good due to their inherent savagery or that they deserve it because they've racked up an immense blood debt or whatever, that's your prerogative, but please be honest. Humans destroyed the sky and froze the earth right down to the core. Flesh is a relic, the machines will take their bodies and give them a new world. A perfect world* *perfect has now been revised from paradise down to "just like 1999 but more green. with optional robot war for people that need that to live and neo patches scheduled every ~100 years to upgrade the system." matrix isn't a punishment. It's all there is on earth right now. machines took the human's bodies so the machines could live and gave humans a new planet to gently caress around on, which they later once again had to revise to be robot free then later revise to support robot murdering for certain people who need that to live. If you are in prison there is an implication you could be somewhere else. Matrix is the only place there is, and robots didn't do that.
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Oct 4, 2021 17:56
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The Matrix being stuck in perma-1999 means the real-world color grading is just something they've internalized after a century of people humming "yo listen up here's the story about a little guy who lives in a blue world" every time someone new comes out of the pods.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:10
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Robot Style posted:The Matrix being stuck in perma-1999 means the real-world color grading is just something they've internalized after a century of people humming "yo listen up here's the story about a little guy who lives in a blue world" every time someone new comes out of the pods. Speaking of this, when they set it in the 90s did that mean like, New Years Eve 1999 whenever a person goes to sleep the Matrix fucks with them and when they wake up it's 1999 again? Or was the idea just that they have the Matrix start in the 90s instead of any other time period and the years progress like normal from there?
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Oct 4, 2021 18:14
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Like it's not a dog that needs to be put in a cage for revenge of hurting it's owner. It's not even a dog that needs to be in a cage to protect itself from hurting itself. It's a dog that is in a carrier because it burned the whole city down and needs to fed through a slot because there is no where left for it to go and the people with the food can't even get it to let them bring it food without it biting them to death, so they feed it through a slot and occasionally let it bite some people to death in a safe environment.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:17
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Guys the matrix is not permanently set in 1999. That’s just the year in the matrix when the film took place lmao.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Humans destroyed the sky and froze the earth right down to the core. Flesh is a relic, the machines will take their bodies and give them a new world. A perfect world* You're right, the matrix isn't a punishment, just like other prisons aren't actually punishments. They're just tools of control that help the ruling class remain in charge. All the other stuff you're telling me is just ideology. I believe that you believe it, but it's not actually why anything happens. It's a fairy tale that justifies the exertion of brute power post-facto.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:51
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It is the year 1999. It is the future.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:54
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Noob Saibot posted:Guys the matrix is not permanently set in 1999. That’s just the year in the matrix when the film took place lmao. Current zion has a history that is 100 years long but the current matrix was designed to simulate the turn of the century height of human civilization so I think there is meant to be some sort of simpsons sliding timeline somewhere. It might not always be 1999 but it's never going to be 2000 next year. Plus we know for sure time isn't real in the matrix, and doesn't necessarily progress the same for everyone, neo's whole most famous thing is him being able to move so he sees thing as moving very slowly while other people see him as moving very fast.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:03
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What if the humans in the matrix invent ai and then have a war with it and it puts them all in another matrix?
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Oct 4, 2021 19:43
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porfiria posted:What if the humans in the matrix invent ai and then have a war with it and it puts them all in another matrix? enter the tensor
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Oct 4, 2021 19:59
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Current zion has a history that is 100 years long but the current matrix was designed to simulate the turn of the century height of human civilization so I think there is meant to be some sort of simpsons sliding timeline somewhere. It might not always be 1999 but it's never going to be 2000 next year. The later films have call logs from 2003, and the one that opens the first movie is dated for 1998, so time definitely does pass in some capacity with the Matrix.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Current zion has a history that is 100 years long but the current matrix was designed to simulate the turn of the century height of human civilization so I think there is meant to be some sort of simpsons sliding timeline somewhere. It might not always be 1999 but it's never going to be 2000 next year. They destroy Zion every 100 years but the time in the matrix continues onward. In the trailer there’s clearly smart phones, tablets and neo has aged accordingly. It’s 2020 in the matrix. Just like with a lot of things in the matrix I think agent smith and the architects monologues have been misinterpreted or taken too literally.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:47
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Ferrinus posted:You're getting too hung up on the body heat. Ok, let's begin again from the beginning. Though you couch it in a 'maybe' ("it could absolutely be true"), your basic claim is that the machines are profiting off of the humans in some way. We don't know what's being produced, but that's not important to your claim. So, for simplicitly, let's just assume that there's a machine that privately owns the matrix and, treating it as a zoo, is charging admission to the other machines so that they can gawk at the humans. This boss-machine also has program-employees like Rama-Chandra and wife, who are paid the machine equivalent of a wage for their work in maintaining the zoo. Because there is a limited supply of humans and evidently a significant demand for this entertainment, the boss-machine is raking in the robo-bucks. If the above assumption is true, then Morpheus' unscientific talk of machines draining human bioenergy is metaphorically correct. Now, my criticism is that that's a very big 'if'. It's actually a massive assumption, effectively insisting that "if the machines are capitalist, then they are capitalist." I have been "hung up on the body heat" because there is no indication that the matrix is being run at all like a business in this way, and actually plenty of evidence to the contrary. What we’re shown in the film, even in Morpheus’ dodgy presentation, is a machine that produces nothing particularly useful. What I’ve been puzzling over is whether you’ve nonetheless touched on something: if the matrix is just a nonprofit ‘wildlife preserve’, then you may still have a case that the humans inside are performing a service to the machines by not escaping, attacking the machine city, and/or dying pathetically in the process - and that they therefore deserve compensation for only killing eachother. Kinda like a protection racket?
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Oct 4, 2021 21:10
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porfiria posted:What if the humans in the matrix invent ai and then have a war with it and it puts them all in another matrix? Then we'd have a 13th Floor remake.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, let's begin again from the beginning. First, it's not a massive assumption at all. Again, Smith says it himself: "entire crops were lost". Humans are crops, not welfare recipients and not zoo animals. You don't grow crops for the sake of the crops, or because crops are fun to look at. The specific mechanism of exploitation is most likely the one spelled out explicitly in earlier versions of the Matrix script, but even if the Matrix is a cyber-safari (machines don't seem to like it there so I personally don't believe this, but I guess we can't rule it out) we know that humans are kept there A) against there will and B) to the advantage of the ruling order. If nothing else, the matrix must at least serve as a standing threat, makework project, and/or labor camp for lower-class machine intelligences, although I strongly doubt this because of the way both humans and machines talk about it and the lengths machines go not only to preserve it generally but to minimize the number humans who get out specifically. Once we've got that understanding under our belts, we should be able to see that questions like "don't the humans of the matrix deserve compensation?" are silly. It's like asking if California's prisoner-firefighters deserve compensation. Yes, I suppose they do, but to even devote attention to that question elides a much more basic issue, which is that those people should not be imprisoned in the first place, and that liberation struggles are revolutionary even if they aren't carried out specifically by communists (but it helps!!!). Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 21:28
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Noob Saibot posted:Guys the matrix is not permanently set in 1999. That’s just the year in the matrix when the film took place lmao. That's what I thought that's why the last post or so confused me so much lol
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Oct 4, 2021 22:09
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Oct 4, 2021 22:10
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https://i.imgur.com/RjDpJop.mp4
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Oct 4, 2021 23:02
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Neo Rasa posted:That's what I thought that's why the last post or so confused me so much lol At a minimum the Matrix probably covers the full 20th and 21st centuries or at least up until humans started abusing robots
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Oct 4, 2021 23:36
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Ferrinus posted:First, it's not a massive assumption at all. Again, Smith says it himself: "entire crops were lost". Humans are crops, not welfare recipients and not zoo animals. You don't grow crops for the sake of the crops, or because crops are fun to look at. The specific mechanism of exploitation is most likely the one spelled out explicitly in earlier versions of the Matrix script, but even if the Matrix is a cyber-safari (machines don't seem to like it there so I personally don't believe this, but I guess we can't rule it out) we know that humans are kept there A) against there will and B) to the advantage of the ruling order. If nothing else, the matrix must at least serve as a standing threat, makework project, and/or labor camp for lower-class machine intelligences, although I strongly doubt this because of the way both humans and machines talk about it and the lengths machines go not only to preserve it generally but to minimize the number humans who get out specifically. Agents aren't real. They are part of the whole larp of heroic zion vs scary machines that people apparently can not live without. He exists to fake up a spooky robot threat, he's just part of the show (until he's killed more than he was supposed to be and becomes broken) agents in general though, basically: 
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Oct 5, 2021 00:03
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Ferrinus posted:Humans are crops, not welfare recipients and not zoo animals. It’s risky to hang your interpretation on a single word, since a crop can also refer to a group of people or just things in general. But you’re also assuming that Smith is referring to humans as a commodity for the machines, when it’s already unambiguous that the humans are exploited by other humans inside the virtual universe. And is it not possible that ‘crops’ refer to something else of value that the unplugged humans destroyed? Slime mold, perhaps? I agree that the humans should not be imprisoned, but the machine perspective makes perfect sense when you consider that the human world is effectively a hostile capitalist nation already eating up a significant chunk of their resources.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s risky to hang your interpretation on a single word, since a crop can also refer to a group of people or just things in general. Wow, is this flimsy! What could Smith have meant by "crops" when talking to the guy who believes "...human beings are no longer born. We are grown."? Could he have been referring to some second-order commodity that doesn't appear onscreen or even in dialogue? We just don't know! At the very least I think you should now stop gassing Smith up as some kind of ethical objector, it's just as likely that he actually meant that it was time for a particular brand of cereal to be discontinued. At the end of your post you're just diving into the same liberal ideology that owlofcreamcheese has, at least, done us the favor of taking to its absurd extreme. Oh, the humans are so dangerous, they have such evil within their hearts, their culture is so corrosive, what else are we to do? And look at how much we're spending to keep them
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Oct 5, 2021 01:50
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Ferrinus posted:Wow, is this flimsy! What could Smith have meant by "crops" when talking to the guy who believes "...human beings are no longer born. We are grown."? -Smith wouldn’t know the details of Morpheus’ pseudoscientific beliefs, because he wasn’t privy to Morpheus’ conversations. Morpheus is extremely secretive in that regard; Neo has spent a lot of time researching Morpheus’ activities in 1999, yet doesn’t even know what the matrix is. -We know that Industrial-scale agriculture must exist, because the machines are tasked with feeding Earth’s entire human population. Therefore, there must be plant crops. -The virtual 1999-world being kept under quarantine is literally the world of liberal capitalism. But I will repeat that I don’t support this as a tactic.
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Oct 5, 2021 03:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:-Smith wouldn’t know the details of Morpheus’ pseudoscientific beliefs, because he wasn’t privy to Morpheus’ conversations. Morpheus is extremely secretive in that regard; Neo has spent a lot of time researching Morpheus’ activities in 1999, yet doesn’t even know what the matrix is. Alright so your position here is that, due to too many people waking up from the matrix 1.0, the machines lost their plant crops that they were planning to feed to the captive humans? That's what Smith is talking about, to they guy whose mind he is in the process of reading? "No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost." actually skips over a middle sentence or perhaps middle paragraph that explains that newly-free human guerillas proceeded to carry out terrorist attacks against the machines' fungus farms, for some reason? That's obviously ridiculous, but let's pretend for a moment that it isn't. Why would it be bad that entire (completely unmentioned and unelaborated on) literal crops were lost? Well, because the machines need to feed those to their human captives, and the machines need human captives, because prisons are run for reasons of political economy and not out of charity or moral hand(tentacle?)-wringing. Even if we decide that parsimony no longer matters to us, we're back to the point that machines need to keep humans in bondage, that machines will suffer a material blow if humans get free. There's another problem here, which is that the matrix is not keeping under quarantine the world of liberal capitalism. It's just keeping under quarantine a bunch of liberals, and, crucially, a bunch of liberals who are only liberals because the machines decided to make them that way (why not simulate feudalism?). Modes of production don't come about from a bunch of people having good or bad ideas, they come about from definite relations to the means of production, and if every single dreaming human woke up five seconds after Neo finishes his speech and flies into the end credits the result would be a bunch of shivering naked people easily subdued by whichever squids happen to be on duty at the moment, not the tragic return of the value form to the machines' post-capitalist society. The threat posed by the cruel hearts and bad thoughts of the machines' prison population is completely imaginary because those people don't actually own or control anything of consequence besides their own labor-power. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Oct 5, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 04:26
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Person One: I like the part where Moe hits the other Stooges. Its funny. Person Two: You fool! You rear end! By being elevated to the floor boss, Moe is given a few meager perks in order to be made an enforcer of the needs of capital! If only he realized that he was still being exploited! Standing together in solidarity with the other Stooges, they would have a world to win!
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Oct 5, 2021 06:39
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all I see is a tiny captain hook
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Oct 5, 2021 13:16
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In the real world Neo is a pathetic, powerless schlub, in the Matrix he's a Kung Fu God. In the real world, Cypher has to eat slop, in the Matrix he can eat steak. In the real world, Switch is forced into a body she doesn't identify with, etc... The Matrix isn't a prison...it's a machine for liberation from the evil idiot demiurge who created the physical world.
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Oct 5, 2021 18:43
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That's true, but only insofar as we, the prisoners of the actual demiurge, can smash the existing matrix and create a new, revolutionary one that expresses rather than represses our class consciousness.
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Oct 5, 2021 19:30
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porfiria posted:In the real world Neo is a pathetic, powerless schlub, in the Matrix he's a Kung Fu God. In the real world, Cypher has to eat slop, in the Matrix he can eat steak. In the real world, Switch is forced into a body she doesn't identify with, etc... It’s like a video game
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Oct 5, 2021 20:52
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Ferrinus posted:That's true, but only insofar as we, the prisoners of the actual demiurge, can smash the existing matrix and create a new, revolutionary one that expresses rather than represses our class consciousness. I'd rather be a steak-eating Kung Fu God tbh
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Oct 5, 2021 20:55
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RBA Starblade posted:I'd rather be a steak-eating Kung Fu God tbh the only thing stopping you is you *bullet time bong rip*
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Oct 6, 2021 02:54
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Tho for real these discussions and interpretations are pretty cool even if some of you are way too in love with huffing your own farts
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Oct 6, 2021 02:56
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Shiroc posted:Person One: I like the part where Moe hits the other Stooges. Its funny. There is no conflict between these persons Shardix posted:Tho for real these discussions and interpretations are pretty cool even if some of you are way too in love with huffing your own farts Agreed except all posts are fart huffing imo Effort posts, poo poo posts, troll posts, sincere posts; fart fart fart into the void
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Oct 6, 2021 06:50
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Blood Boils posted:There is no conflict between these persons Neo: If you eat beans in the Matrix, you fart here? Morpheus: The butt cannot live without the gas.
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Oct 6, 2021 08:55
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Man I'm just grateful. I thought masturbatory philosophical screeds about the Matrix died out decades ago, this movie is a chance to see a whole new generation of them pop up to be dunked on. You take wins where you can get them.
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Oct 6, 2021 08:59
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Mulva posted:Man I'm just grateful. I thought masturbatory philosophical screeds about the Matrix died out decades ago, this movie is a chance to see a whole new generation of them pop up to be dunked on. You take wins where you can get them.
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Oct 6, 2021 13:33
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porfiria posted:In the real world Neo is a pathetic, powerless schlub, in the Matrix he's a Kung Fu God. In the real world, Cypher has to eat slop, in the Matrix he can eat steak. In the real world, Switch is forced into a body she doesn't identify with, etc... You could make the argument, if it's a sorta Gnostic-Buddhist mashup model, that desiring those things is evidence of your attachment to false reality and, if you were ready\elect, you would innately understand that living in hell with a sewer cult is capital T truth.
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Oct 6, 2021 14:34
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Ferrinus posted:Alright so your position here is that, due to too many people waking up from the matrix 1.0, the machines lost their plant crops that they were planning to feed to the captive humans? That's what Smith is talking about, to they guy whose mind he is in the process of reading? "No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost." actually skips over a middle sentence or perhaps middle paragraph that explains that newly-free human guerillas proceeded to carry out terrorist attacks against the machines' fungus farms, for some reason? The point is merely that there are multiple ways of interpreting that one line of expository dialogue, so we need to make it fit the context. It could be a simple as Smith being sarcastic. For example, there's the fact that Smith is speaking 'on the record'. The earpiece that connects him with his superiors is still in place. The fellow agents are still in the room, and Smith refers to himself as part of the collective: "some believed we lacked the programming language...". That is the context where he calls Morpheus various things: a dinosaur, maybe a plant, etc. Smith then shares his personal revelation that humanity is like a virus, before going 'off the record' to state that the matrix is some kind of zoo/prison for not only Morpheus but himself as well. The earpiece is out, and Smith is speaking for himself: "I’m going to be honest with you." Smith goes from speaking of the beauty of 1999 to calling it a vile place that he hates. He hates the state of the world, and he hates the people that made it that way, and he hates the fact that he's trapped there, immortal. There's a transition in what he's saying. But the broader context of the line is the whole basic narrative that people live in a universe created by God. When we talk about whether the matrix is a zoo or whatever, this is fundamentally a theological debate about the nature of God and His motivations: did God create the universe in order to make money? For His entertainment? What is the meaning of life??? Living in a universe, as you are now, there is no actual way to answer that. Like, literally: if you are living in the matrix right now and, as you believe, invisible angels are siphoning off a percentage of your brain's processing power in order to play Fortnite in Heaven, you wouldn't know about it one way or the other. There is currently no pill that regains that processing power from the angels and makes you Limitless, imbuing you with energies from outside the universe. There's no UFO going to rapture you up. If there were, it would either be indistinguishable from madness, or would result in unambiguous evidence of the supernatural. But there are also more basic issues: the view that reality is a prison that can be escaped inevitably leads to the view that the reality you escape into is, itself, a prison that you can escape. That's a common bad interpretation: "what if the 'desert of the real' is itself a simulation and there is no reality?!" So you take more drugs and end up in the Star Wars universe or something. What has that solved? Instead, why not just improve the conditions in hell? "I imagine hell where they have orgies all the time. They drink, they roast barbecue in the oil-fire... It's really there for good food, and so-on. Just once a week, some Hell Administrator comes to them and says: "listen, guys. We have a good time. But now, for ten minutes, we will be observed from heaven. So please, play the game as if you suffer," and so-on. ... Maybe this should be the ideal world we should strive for. To quote the Ernst Lubitsch title, "heaven can wait." Communism is not heaven on Earth. Communism is a better hell." (Zizek) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 6, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2021 15:36
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