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CharlestheHammer posted:Why are you acting like a child Oh please, like a child could shitpost with this kind of grammar and punctuation.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:03
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Jedit posted:Heh - it is a reference, but not to Zork. There's an old Scottish poem that accompanies a toast - and thus appropriate for Garibaldi to know - which runs thus: It's a Marcus line, same applies though Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I mean, say what you will about GRRM, but he had my favorite author's response I've ever witnessed. quote:io9: What was your reaction to learning your books were getting 500,000 reprints after the release of the Netflix show? https://gizmodo.com/i-do-not-like-working-too-hard-or-too-long-a-refreshin-1841209529
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Oct 4, 2021 23:09
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Besters back and the Telepath thing is hopefully winding down. I'm on Episode 11 Season 5. Besters great to hate. Koenig is so wonderful in the show.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:26
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Hollismason posted:Besters back and the Telepath thing is hopefully winding down. Yeah, you'll know when it winds down.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:30
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I just really don't like the telepath storyline that much and that seems to be the main focus of the season so its been rather unenjoyable for me.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:34
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean it’s more likely JMS is just like that from what I remember from his time as a comics writer So, an assumption. Okay. Grand Fromage posted:The day I spend hours going through JMS' twitter feed to make a point on a forum is the day I need to log off forever. He's one of the few people I read there, he gets mad if you ask about B5 referencing stuff. The reason people are asking you to cite your sources (as least me) is because what you assert is completely contradictory to everything I've ever read about him, or what I've read in his own words. When asked where you saw stuff like that you just say "Twitter". Okay? Just because you claim he's a certain way, we're supposed to believe it? Are you the same guy who kept insisted that JMS didn't have a 5 year arc planned in advance with contingencies, despite several people offering hard proof including pictures of the 3x5 cards? I'm not white knighting him. I truly do not care if anyone likes him or not. But I am a big fan of his writing, and I've been reading his articles and other stuff he's written since the 80's when he used to do scriptwriting columns in Writers Digest, and in all that time I have never come across anything like what you are saying. I am very curious about that, and would like to read it for myself. I love reading what writers write about writing. (it hurt to type that)
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Oct 4, 2021 23:36
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I like B5, I think he's an interesting dude but he also can be super defensive. If you don't believe me, that is okay. I grant you that right.
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Well the telepath thing turned out about how I was expecting it to turn out. I'm now on episode 12 Season 5. Glad that particular storyline was finished , hopefully. Disappointed no one killed Bester. I don't like the new music for the series and I don't like B5 opening. I liked the narrative opening more , but whatever. Its still really good.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:31
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Hollismason posted:Well the telepath thing turned out about how I was expecting it to turn out. I'm now on episode 12 Season 5. Glad that particular storyline was finished , hopefully. Disappointed no one killed Bester. these are v commonly held opinions and objectively correct imo i think byron could have worked, but it was badly written
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Oct 5, 2021 00:44
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I'm really digging the idea of G'Kar becoming a spiritual leader. Waiting to see how that turns out. So far the season is really good but it has this real anticlimactic feel to it.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:06
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It's post-climactic. Denouement. Epilogue.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:12
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sebmojo posted:i think byron could have worked, but it was badly written Yeah, it was real clear he was scrambling to fill the first part of the season. If there's a similar telepath arc in the reboot I expect it'll be way better.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:28
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Winifred Madgers posted:It's post-climactic. Denouement. Epilogue. falling action
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Oct 5, 2021 01:35
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The Scouring of the Station
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Oct 5, 2021 01:47
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Got to Episode 13 Season 5 The Corps is Mother , The Corps is Father. Good episode so far I like that its focused on Bester. I really dislike Bester but drat does Koenig play him so well that you kind of love him.
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Oct 5, 2021 02:25
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Grand Fromage posted:The day I spend hours going through JMS' twitter feed to make a point on a forum is the day I need to log off forever.
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Oct 5, 2021 03:13
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drat Season 5 episode 14 The Corps is Father , The Corps is Mother was really good.
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Oct 5, 2021 03:57
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Hollismason posted:drat Season 5 episode 14 The Corps is Father , The Corps is Mother was really good. The idea that someone would find Bester sexy is kinda disturbing though.
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Oct 5, 2021 06:51
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He's a good looking man for his age. He's charming. He's well respected by his peers. And he is incredibly powerful. Any one of those is enough to find someone sexy.
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Oct 5, 2021 07:06
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OnlyBans posted:He's a good looking man for his age. He's charming. He's well respected by his peers. And he is incredibly powerful. And he has his own credit cards
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Oct 5, 2021 09:01
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OnlyBans posted:He's a good looking man for his age. He's charming. He's well respected by his peers. And he can make you find him sexy by controlling your brain with his psychic powers
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Oct 5, 2021 09:33
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don’t think you need rigorious sourcing for this really. Stuff gets distorted all the time on these threads. Nuance always gets amplified out. Little anecdotes or opinions get turned into short, repeatable "facts" that just aren't true or an exaggeration. I notice it a lot, people just have the natural urge to make something a tiny bit juicier on retelling. And sometimes, that eventually adds up to a whole community repeating nonsense ad nauseam. I know it's minor, none of this stuff is important, but we're all here. Sometimes it's nice to know if something is based on knowledge or rumour.
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Oct 5, 2021 13:17
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Narsham posted:I find this an odd reading given that the episode, and S5 generally, seem deliberately to be undermining the “Great Man Theory” of the previous seasons while also attacking the idea that individual people don’t make a difference, only broad trends in society. I'd add to this that there is a certain inherent conflict between storytelling and trying to refute any "great man theory". Many (most?) popular characters and stories are "larger than life" because it simply offers more dramatic possibilities. That is inherently at odds with a story that wants to say that "great man theory" isn't a thing. It also undermines one of the pillars of such stories, ie the "power fantasy" / "heroe's journey". Hard to have that without a "chosen one" and B5 certainly has that at its core. Writers of course recognise that problem and do feel kinda iffy about the "great man" concept and it's implications if it isn't the protagonist we are all supposed to root for. That's why these characters usually end up being very humble about it (in the end), give up their power, are shown to care more about the "big picture" and so on but if you look below the surface it still can't resolve the inherent conflict because without our "heroes" the world would always be a worse place due to the fact to how integral these characters are (have to be from a storytelling perspective) to the world. Like you said, B5 tries to address that but even then it can't resist the urge to make the known B5 members a central part of it, be it Delenn or (AI copy) Garibaldi in the future who still play an important part. It also makes it in some sense worse because it shows there aren't other "great man" around, it's still about Sheridan and so on which is another trap these attempts fall into, by trying to emphasize how the characters "totally aren't great man" you just keep making them even greater. You also have a literal great man (being) in the story with Lorien, an individual that shapes events at a galactic scale. Then there are Molari, G'Kar and so on, all having an outsized influence on their societies. All of that is obviously down to storytelling reasons. It's extremely hard to write about societal change at such scales, thus we have "avatars" that represent what a society at large goes through and due to the fact that passive characters are usually "boring" it means they have to be involved in what is happening and in a way that "matters".
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Oct 5, 2021 13:57
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LinkesAuge posted:I'd add to this that there is a certain inherent conflict between storytelling and trying to refute any "great man theory". Many (most?) popular characters and stories are "larger than life" because it simply offers more dramatic possibilities. That is inherently at odds with a story that wants to say that "great man theory" isn't a thing. Delenn is arguably so central to the story that she could be read as the destined savior, the narrative supports that (Comes the Inquisitor), and while she’s not presented as perfect, she’s more generally capable than Sheridan is and it’s only in S4 that she gets a bit diminished, largely by choice. “Great Man” theory doesn’t live comfortably alongside great women/great alien-human hybrids. B5 is unapologetically “one person can make a difference,” but remarkably good at spreading that love across the cast. Sheridan is the main character/star of the show, but from an imagined in-world historical viewpoint, either G’Kar or Vir are likely as important or more important and it’s only that humans and Minbari “transcend” where the Narn and Centauri don’t that keeps us in the center of the narrative. Lorien is at best a deeply flawed “great man”, given that he just sits in one place for tens or hundreds of thousands of years and allows his children to fight while he waits for someone he can use to show up. As I’ve argued before, the alien design and performance make Lorien too obviously a God-figure when he ought to come across as somewhat creepy and manipulative. Because he is both of those things. His little speech on love to Ivanova is not what you want to hear from your God-figure, even if it ultimately isn’t supported by his on-screen behavior. I don’t want to start one of those Last Jedi arguments, but I will say that Luke’s role at the end of that film is probably the most effective refutation of the “lone hero” power fantasy I’ve ever seen. His “I will not fight you” bit on Jedi was a good attempt, but the Last Jedi ending lands well enough to infuriate a large fraction of the film’s audience.
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Oct 5, 2021 15:47
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I've made it to Season 5 Episode 17 Movements of Fire and Shadow. drat really hoping things turn out alright for Londo and G'Kar. Mostly I'm worried about G'Kar. This is a much better plot than the telepath storyline.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:24
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I view the Great Men in stories like this being humble as more of a callback to Cincinnatus than some rebuttal to the Great Man theory. B5 absolutely believes that one person can make a difference and embraces the Great Man Theory. They make a point of calling out people who oppose the Great Man theory as weak quislings.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:24
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OnlyBans posted:I view the Great Men in stories like this being humble as more of a callback to Cincinnatus than some rebuttal to the Great Man theory. B5 absolutely believes that one person can make a difference and embraces the Great Man Theory. They make a point of calling out people who oppose the Great Man theory as weak quislings. The only time they've made an actual effort to focus on non-Great People was A View from the Gallery, and what they did was basically spend the whole episode complaining about but eventually lauding the Great People.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:40
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Hollismason posted:I've made it to Season 5 Episode 17 Movements of Fire and Shadow. drat really hoping things turn out alright for Londo and G'Kar. Mostly I'm worried about G'Kar. This is a much better plot than the telepath storyline. when people say s5 is bad they're specifically talking about the telepath arc.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:46
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sebmojo posted:when people say s5 is bad they're specifically talking about the telepath arc. Its gotten really loving good again. Not sure where this is all going. I'm now on episode 18 Season 5 The Fall of Centauri Prime. Pretty brutal.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:57
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The only time they've made an actual effort to focus on non-Great People was A View from the Gallery, and what they did was basically spend the whole episode complaining about but eventually lauding the Great People. Let's be clear about what the "Great Man" theory is, because if you've using the phrase "Great People" you've already slid past it. The supposition is that great "heroes" determine the course of history. These are leaders, men, who were born with innate talents and abilities and who rise to their moment in history. B5 does not reject this theory and aspects of the show support it, but others sharply criticize it or deny it. As a start, can we acknowledge that almost all TV programs focus on their main characters? I'm hard-pressed to find an example of a TV program that has "the masses" as a comprehended agent on the show. Saying that the show has a protagonist is not proof that it is all-in on "Great Man" theory. Add to that the "genius" factor: "Great Man" theory says that great men are born, not made. Shakespeare's talent is innate, as otherwise lots of writers would work hard and be another Shakespeare; Hitler had an innate charisma and sense of how to drive people; Napoleon's military genius was sui generis. Examined from this perspective (not mine: Google "Great Man" theory for yourself), B5 does appear to be giving us something of the "Great Man" with Sheridan (descendant of General Sheridan, so genetically predisposed to military genius, perhaps), and arguably with Sinclair (though his background with Jesuits explains why he might talk like a Minbari, and there's another very good reason he might that has nothing to do with innate genius). But the rest of the show disputes the theory in ways ranging from small to large. G'Kar, Vir, and arguably Londo get meaningful character arcs where they learn and practice skills to become the leaders they end up being--there may be aspects of innate genius there (as with G'Kar's eloquence), but Vir's fundamental decency doesn't real as "genius" and he learns from every single thing that happens to him. Delenn is a bit of a mixture, but "Comes the Inquisitor" hammers on the point that she isn't a "Great Man" at all, she sees herself as expendable and believes many others capable of taking her place. That the Vorlon agent eventually declares her the right person in the right place at the right time for the right reasons doesn't prove the show sees her as the "Great Man." That whole "right reasons" thing doesn't fit, for a start. Aside from an episode like "By Any Means Necessary," the show gives us a few characters closer to the blue-collar end of the scale of status. That said, Garibaldi and Zack Allen definitely change history, but they don't fit any reasonable "Great Man" definition, and Zack is specifically packaged as an "Everyman" figure in the show. And the Shadows and Vorlons definitely change history, but don't fit into the "Great Man" model. (Lorien, maybe, but his "I cannot help you" stance undercuts that reading.) Given that B5 ends with an Ivanova narration summarizing the lessons of the show, which are focused on how B5 (the station) changed history and the characters, about each of them and their role in history, that undercuts the "Great Man" theory, too. And then the very end of the last episode presents it as a documentary about a historical moment, a documentary about Babylon 5. Character names mentioned in this concluding narration: G'Kar, Vir, Ivanova, and the Garibaldi/Edgars Foundation. "Sleeping in Light" is about Sheridan's death, but the show is about more than just Sheridan. I could go on, and will, if needed.
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Oct 5, 2021 23:58
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Good post
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Oct 6, 2021 00:04
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The show is about its protagonists, which is all well and good, but they are upper class for the most part, and even those who are not are in political points of control. There is very little class or social analysis. Social realities that are completely elided in most, say, Star Trek (except for DS9, on occasion), are presented to us, but there's no sense of development there that isn't about specific heroes doing What Needs to be Done. You rightly refer to By Any Means Necessary as an exceptional draw of blue collar characters into the limelight, but how is that resolved? Through the application of proletarian pressure? Through people not previously established as Right and Good Leaders becoming important nexuses of power? No, through Fearless Leader Sinclair performing a creative accounting maneuver to obviate the problem. Yes, the leaders who are leaders throughout go through character arcs where they change, maybe they're humbled, but just because the text of Comes the Inquisitor is about how Delenn doesn't matter doesn't mean she isn't actually pivotal. We see her being pivotal, we don't see any potential for anyone else among the Minbari doing what she ends up doing. It's all about these specific protagonists in their positions of power and how that power manifests and how this affects the world. There is no world-changing agency given to the masses. That's what frustrates me. Edit: A counterexample to this is the reimagined BSG. We constantly see protagonists at all levels of society. We see some serious social and historical upheavals leading to changes in the status quo, not just decisions made from above by the elites, or specific leaders manipulated by eldritch alien races. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 6, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2021 00:20
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Great Man just says that the individual in the figurative sense not the literal sense. Like Great man theory does not need a single person to do everything because history doesn’t work like that. Like even great man proponents are more than willing to say Ghengis Khan needed his many talented generals or Napoleon needed his staff. Even the great men wer neeefed to put it together
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Oct 6, 2021 00:25
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Like the opposite to great man theory is that anyone could have accomplished what was accomplished and the ones that did did so because they were born at the right time and place
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Oct 6, 2021 00:27
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CharlestheHammer posted:Like the opposite to great man theory is that anyone could have accomplished what was accomplished and the ones that did did so because they were born at the right time and place Or that it's not just specific people who cause things to happen, but that they're part of a group action. Yes, it's hard for drama not to follow specific protagonists, but their agency could be less individually meaningful and more important in how it fits within larger social upheaval.
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Oct 6, 2021 00:44
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drat Season 5 Episode 18 The Fall of Centauri Prime is depressing. Was hoping for something better for Londo.
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Oct 6, 2021 00:54
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When people say B5 undercuts the great man myth, I think it's more accurate to say that they are highlighting the fact that "A single person can change the course of history" is not actually the Great Man Myth. A central part of the myth is that great man is born to it. They're given the power by fate, kismet, god, whatever. B5s history changers are just people. They aren't great because of who they are, they are great because of what they've done.
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Oct 6, 2021 00:56
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CharlestheHammer posted:Great Man just says that the individual in the figurative sense not the literal sense. This. I mean, Deconstruction of Falling Stars has Delenn come in and clown on people arguing against Great Man theory.
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Oct 6, 2021 00:56
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Hollismason posted:drat Season 5 Episode 18 The Fall of Centauri Prime is depressing. Was hoping for something better for Londo. Why? You already saw War Without End, so you knew he wasn't going to get it. The question was only ever how he got to where he ended up.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:01
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Jedit posted:Why? You already saw War Without End, so you knew he wasn't going to get it. The question was only ever how he got to where he ended up. I was kind of hoping the future had been changed.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:02
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Hollismason posted:I was kind of hoping the future had been changed. they asked, it refused, endy fucken story 
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Oct 6, 2021 01:07
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