|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The point is merely that there are multiple ways of interpreting that one line of expository dialogue, so we need to make it fit the context. It could be a simple as Smith being sarcastic. Well, yes, Morpheus is like a dinosaur, in that he is a relic of a bygone age. He is like a virus in that his kind is inclined to spread limitlessly. He is like a plant in that he is grown to be consumed. The simplest explanation of "entire crops were lost", which fits perfectly with "we are grown." and more generally fits perfectly with the ruthless zeal with which machines maintain the matrix and the end-game desperation of the machines from preventing the matrix from going down all together—and, obviously, the fact that no character ever claims otherwise—is that the machines actually do need humans to maintain their way of life and the matrix is a tool of exploitation. There isn't a compelling reason to deny this because it only leaves you mired in these goofy idealistic fantasies where the machines are long-suffering caretakers of colicky babies and/or aren't even really sapient. It actually obscures the class content of the story by making it instead about justice and punishment or charity and greed or similar nonsense. quote:But the broader context of the line is the whole basic narrative that people live in a universe created by God. When we talk about whether the matrix is a zoo or whatever, this is fundamentally a theological debate about the nature of God and His motivations: did God create the universe in order to make money? For His entertainment? What is the meaning of life??? The Matrix films themselves don't actually indulge in this kind of thing, though. First, they don't actually hold that reality and prison are indistinguishable (the matrix is glitchy, people struggle against the matrix unconsciously and wake up all the time), second, there's no preoccupation with the desert of the real actually being the desert of the fake or even a nod towards matrix-within-a-matrix theories in any of the sequels, and third, the fact of angels specifically needing my brainpower to play Fortnite (as opposed to simply judging me unworthy or withholding access to Ain Soph out of spite or whatever) drags those angels down to my level and firmly enmeshes them in the same material world that I exist in. This is the opposite of a paranoiac obsession with increasingly-subtle cartesian demons; there are real resources to struggle over and physical jailers with names and addresses who are only able to appropriate those resources due to historical accident. Indeed, the idea that the matrix is just the universe as such, that the machine world is a distraction or even a delusion, etc. is the very ideological haze that Marx distinguished himself by piercing. Even before you get into the nitty-gritty of relative surplus labor time or whatever, you have to attain the understanding that capitalism isn't a cosmic constant but a temporary accident, something artificial that was built and can be dismantled. We actually should be paying attention to the man behind the curtain, because it turns out he's just a man! Also, it doesn't really make sense to be like oh, if we let people out of prison, won't they then be dissatisfied by freedom? If stolen land is retaken, won't the people who regain that land just do capitalism on it? Struggles for self-determination are revolutionary in their own right. quote:Instead, why not just improve the conditions in hell? This is actually how the series ends, but you don't seem to approve!
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 11:25 |
|
|
Blood Boils posted:There is no conflict between these persons If only I had thought to end it with person 2 ended it by calling 1 a knucklehead and poking them in the eyes, it would have been perfect.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:The simplest explanation of "entire crops were lost", which fits perfectly with "we are grown." Also, again, agents are not 100% genuine. Remember, the goal of that interrogation was to get the codes to the zion mainframe. This is not a real goal the machines really have. I don't think the agents are purely fiction purely playing roles, but they do have a thick layer of kayfabe. I think smith hates humans, he is speaking personally when he says that, but he is also literally play acting a fake meaningless interrogation solely to pretend the zion resistance is real. Giving them a show is part of it. he may walk off stage later and clap with his buddies "oh man, crop! that's a good one! the zion resistance is gonna love it! lets write that into the official script next neo! they are gonna so totally think they are a real resistance if we talk like that! oh man!"
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Also, again, agents are not 100% genuine. Of course it's a goal that the machines have. Even presuming that A) the machines are all in on the Architect's plot B) the machines are all in favor of it C) the machines all have the same goals D) the machines' plot actually involves putting on a show, we see in the third movie that the actual invasion of Zion is a protracted military battle with real-world stakes in terms of casualties and materiel. Squids aren't free and those chaingun mechs the humans pilot around aren't trivially defeated. Nipping Zion in the bud early, or at least dramatically penetrating and weakening its security, would mean that hitting the reset button goes more smoothly and costs the machines less. Again, this comes down to the fact that the machines aren't running the matrix for fun or for charity; they have real material needs that the matrix fulfills. If anything, Smith's "I'm going to be honest with you" echoes the scene in the first chapter of Assata Shakur's autobiography in which a state trooper, finally alone with her in a hospital room, gloats that he's an out-and-out Nazi and wishes he'd fought in World War 2 on the opposite side and says that if he were in charge Black people would have been exterminated all together. And he's not lying! He really does hate the people he's policing to his core and dream of their total extermination! This is why cops don't set state policy, just enact it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 21:51
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Of course it's a goal that the machines have. Even presuming that A) the machines are all in on the Architect's plot B) the machines are all in favor of it C) the machines all have the same goals D) the machines' plot actually involves putting on a show, we see in the third movie that the actual invasion of Zion is a protracted military battle with real-world stakes in terms of casualties and materiel. Squids aren't free and those chaingun mechs the humans pilot around aren't trivially defeated. Nipping Zion in the bud early, or at least dramatically penetrating and weakening its security, would mean that hitting the reset button goes more smoothly and costs the machines less. Again, this comes down to the fact that the machines aren't running the matrix for fun or for charity; they have real material needs that the matrix fulfills. The zion battle is very explicitly false and fake. It being a back and forth battle is just a thing they do to make neos think they need to take their keys and quest items and run to the source to blow up the machines, which he then does on cue, at which point the architect is there instead, explains everything and makes neo take his neo juice and make a patch for the matrix so they can reboot. which he normally does. the whole sequence of the squid flying around and fighting one on one with the mechs is just pretend. It's just to make neo think he's fighting and get him to the right place. You actually do see what a real non-pretend attack is, before they retreat, the squids simply stop pretending to be individual combatants that you fight hand to hand and just become a big fractal liquid that easily flows through walls and scours everything trivially. The whole literal count down with the drill, and the part they vaguely fly around and battle people is just a time waster while neo gets to the core, when he gets there and they get the signal to stop playing they switch to the part they actually have a kajillion sentals that all move like a cloud and roar in the same voice and would presumably simply sweep through and then rebuild a fresh zion like big nanobots in a minute or two.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 01:07
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:... fits perfectly with the ruthless zeal with which machines maintain the matrix and the end-game desperation of the machines from preventing the matrix from going down all together That’s not what happens in the movies. Architect offers Neo a choice between destroying Zion or crashing the matrix. Neo chooses the latter, and Architect is like “eh, whatever. Goodbye humans.” In the next film, Neo goes to Deus for help saving everyone, and Deus is like “gently caress off.” They’ve very clearly given up on the whole matrix project at this point. The machines only become concerned when Smith threatens to somehow escape the matrix and overtake the Machine City.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:The zion battle is very explicitly false and fake. I'm pretty sure you're confusing the timing here. The actual bullets vs. tentacles battle happens in Revolutions, when The One has already failed to play along with the Architect's plan and everything's gone completely off the rails. There's no charade to keep up any more; Neo and Trinity are flying around in the physical world trying to get an audience with the god baby at the same time as the machines are operating a huge drill so that they can open up a wide path to Zion and just flood unstoppably across it exactly as you describe. The machines are delayed by mechs and later by an EMP but they have no particular reason to do what they're doing slowly, feign weakness, etc. SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not what happens in the movies. Neo has a choice, but the Architect doesn't. The only way he can prevent a Matrix crash is if Neo plays along; once it's obvious that Neo won't, the Architect doesn't melt down or start crying because he's got a particularly phlegmatic personality, but he knows that this matrix's fate is sealed. In the "present day" of the movies, machines are currently on a matrix hot streak (IIRC they've had seven or eight consecutive matrices operate without a hitch) but they did recover from two catastrophic simulation-wide crashes before that. If you lose entire crops, you tighten your belt, see who survives the winter, and then get back to planting next spring. That doesn't mean you don't actually need crops and are just growing them for fun or something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:06
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Neo has a choice, but the Architect doesn't. The only way he can prevent a Matrix crash is if Neo plays along; once it's obvious that Neo won't, the Architect doesn't melt down or start crying because he's got a particularly phlegmatic personality, but he knows that this matrix's fate is sealed. Nope, they've genuinely given up plans for any future matrixes. Architect: Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race." Maybe he's lying? Well, no; the Architect specifically doesn't lie. Architect: What do you think I am? Human?" Neo: I believed him. ... I know it isn’t easy to hear, but I swear to you it’s the truth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 04:46
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nope, they've genuinely given up plans for any future matrixes. The Architect may not be lying, but he's either wrong or leaving things out. In the first place, Neo's failure to comply doesn't result in a cataclysmic system crash; the Matrix is still operational one movie later, just increasingly overrun by Smiths. Maybe he means it's going to result in a cataclysmic system crash eventually? But in that case the machines could stock up on embryos, and might even be in the process of doing so. It's like the immediate following exchange we've been over already, in which the Architect confirms for us that the Matrix is a farm and not an art project: Neo: You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive. The Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. Oh so the loss of the Matrix actually would constrain them materially, good to know. Now, like the big baby, the Architect is certain that the machines don't "need" the humans. But it's like how southern planters technically didn't "need" slaves or how Ayn Rand thought the genius robber barons who drive human society can just start sweeping floors and brewing coffee themselves. It's true, they can; they just won't, because the ratchet of class society only moves in one direction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 16:19
|
|
|
'One movie later' is a disingenuous thing to say about a film set immediately after the previous one. By the midpoint of Revolutions the Matrix is in serious disrepair. IIRC there are a buncha weird glitches happening when people look at the code. So the Architect simply told the truth. The thing he said would happen, starts to happen almost immediately. Ferrinus posted:The Architect confirms for us that the Matrix is a farm and not an art project: So then, what are the humans really even for? And why are so many programs running around inside the Matrix having fun pretending to be vampires, and using it to take refuge from the outside? This leads to an important question about, you know, figuring out the purpose of the Matrix: Why not simply keep humans comatose from birth? Why is maintaining the illusion of pre-collapse capitalism and populating it with real people deemed necessary? Despite being apparently an energy source, humans who die in the matrix die for real. You built your farm to constantly unnecessarily lose crops. Thousands of batteries died because your simulation did an earthquake. All this to make a believable simulation for people you could just keep asleep all day, and basically already are? For what purpose?
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 17:34
|
|
|
Smith's description of the Matrix as a zoo might be more literal than he thinks. As much as the machines are in control of the planet, they were originally built to help humanity, and it kind of seems like they're still in some way compelled to do that. Even when they present a Machine God to Neo, it takes the form of a petulant human child. They might ultimately have more in common with the robots from Wall-E than they do with Skynet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 17:45
|
|
|
I always thought it makes more sense to see the machines treating humans more like an elderly and infirm relative. Sure they can't really make decisions for themselves anymore and require round-the-clock care, but they're your responsibility and you want them to have the best life possible given the circumstances.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
There's no machine/program in the story sitting there going "haha yes, this is good!" Agent Smith hates humans but doesn't want them to be his responsibility. He originally believes he will be liberated from his responsibilities and the Matrix if he can help the machines penetrate Zion. He is apparently unaware that the machines could do this at any time, it's just not time yet. When he discovers more about what is going on he decides to destroy everything. This is basically the character that for some reason several people claim Morpheus secretly is. The Oracle is trying to help humans transcend, and has watched them fail to do so five times (but perhaps there were incremental successes we don't know about). The Architect describes everything in terms of an unbalanced equation. He has built the rebellion and the One's inevitable existence into a cyclical and admittedly unstable system. It's not really working, but this is the best he can do. Notably at the end of the movies, no one has ended the Matrix. There's just apparently now a peaceful pathway to leave the Matrix and join Zion. The Matrix is still the best anyone can do for a lot of humanity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
It's worth repeating that "killing everyone connected to the matrix" includes Architect himself. He does, quite literally, need humans to survive. But this aspect of the discussion has gotten circular because, as noted before, pure speculation is not very interesting. If the machines are somehow profiting off of the humans in some way, that's not a part of the movies' narrative at all. What are actually shown, instead, is the Metacortex Software Corporation. Threatened with unemployment, Neo is apologetic to his boss, deferential. He promises to do better. And then there's an interesting shift: a few scenes later, confronted by the Agents, Neo is stoic, resistant. He gives them the finger and tells them to gently caress off. It's easy to see how the fantasy of fighting the interdimensional Agents actually provide a curiously 'safe' outlet for Neo's frustrations in the workplace. As a computer criminal, Neo can be a savior to his drug-taking, club-hopping friends: "It’s called Mescaline. It’s the only way to fly. Hey, it just sounds to me like you need to unplug, man. You know, get some 'R & R'." As the stakes are ostensibly raised across the series, and Neo ventures further into the realm of computer crime, we move further and further away from ever confronting Mr. Rhineheart. Metacortex disappears from the series entirely. The closest thing to a visual expression of class conflict in the sequels is with Merovingian - living in opulence, coded as a vampiric gangster, etc. Merv uses Neo's same powers to thrive in 1999's capitalist system, showing that there's nothing particularly revolutionary about learning kung-fu and fighting the Agents. With that issue raised, Merovingian then quietly disappears from the story. Robot Style posted:Smith's description of the Matrix as a zoo might be more literal than he thinks. As much as the machines are in control of the planet, they were originally built to help humanity, and it kind of seems like they're still in some way compelled to do that. Even when they present a Machine God to Neo, it takes the form of a petulant human child. They might ultimately have more in common with the robots from Wall-E than they do with Skynet. Wall-E is 100% the better Matrix movie. Sodomy Hussein posted:When [Smith] discovers more about what is going on he decides to destroy everything. This is basically the character that for some reason several people claim Morpheus secretly is. Given that Neo and the machines have mutually agreed to crash the matrix and end humanity, Smith's takeover is implicitly an effort to save those lives. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Oct 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
Necrothatcher posted:I always thought it makes more sense to see the machines treating humans more like an elderly and infirm relative. Sure they can't really make decisions for themselves anymore and require round-the-clock care, but they're your responsibility and you want them to have the best life possible given the circumstances. Oh hey, that was another plot line in Cloud Atlas.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
Hbomberguy posted:This leads to an important question about, you know, figuring out the purpose of the Matrix: Why not simply keep humans comatose from birth? My personal theory is that we give machines a reason to keep doing... literally anything. We're the antithesis to their thesis, and dealing with us leads to synthesis. Whether or not they want to admit it, managing us is something to do that presents unique challenges that keep them from going completely insane, optimizing themselves, alone, on a dead planet. I'm sure when they say we generate power they're not lying, but we're an inefficient source of power, and they keep us thinking because we're aggravating in a way that creates novelty. Plus I don't doubt, based on how real world coding works, that the core "serve humanity" imperative is still in their programming. It's surely been tweaked and repurposed (maybe like "serve man by holding them prisoner to keep them safe from themselves"), but it's still there and pressing that button in their e-brains gives them the same kind of rush eating sweets does for humans.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
The Wachowskis addressed the battery thing in an interview from around the time of Cloud Atlas:Wachowski AV Club Interview posted:AVC: At this point, do you have a snappy answer to the Matrix battery question that keeps coming up? Though it doesn't answer why they keep humans conscious while it's going on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:00
|
|
|
Energy is generated via neural synapses firing in unique ways, duh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:23
|
|
|
Fusion is stored in the pods
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:26
|
|
|
Maybe they're storing up all the methane produced from having an all liquefied human diet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:The Wachowskis addressed the battery thing in an interview from around the time of Cloud Atlas: That makes even less sense! But anyways, there's a bigger question than any faced before: In Matrix 2, the werewolves are shown watching The Brides Of Dracula on TV - a 1960 Hammer horror picture. So, was this movie filmed inside the matrix forty years ago, or is it an artifact that's at least several hundred years old???
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:47
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That makes even less sense! There were definitely movie nerd machines that combed the ruins of civilization after we were sorted away, looking for film prints to restore and upload.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 23:55
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That makes even less sense! I think the reasonable answer to all these questions is that the whole Matrix is a bunch of kludges, work-arounds, and quick fixes (like any big piece of software). That's how it's able to deal with simulating physics, or keep the world in a perpetual 1999. The Oracle implies there's a program written to govern the behavior of birds--if the Matrix were a properly high fidelity simulation of the world, there'd "just" be the laws of physics and a bunch of starting conditions. Mouse points out that Tastee-Wheat (tm) in the Matrix is just a recreation. So, in this case, yeah the machines probably grabbed a bunch of recovered data and used it to create some backstory for the Matrix--but if you actually looked it would be pretty different, and probably very limited, compared to what actually existed in 1999.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:
It was the terms of surrender. The humans stole the sun as a power source so the robot ambassador presents that humans could give their bodies in exchange for a new world. (he then signs the agreement himself and then literally explodes) Why would they make that the agreement? Well, it's the same thing robots wanted at every step. To not have a war with humans.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 00:43
|
|
|
Hbomberguy posted:'One movie later' is a disingenuous thing to say about a film set immediately after the previous one. By the midpoint of Revolutions the Matrix is in serious disrepair. IIRC there are a buncha weird glitches happening when people look at the code. Yeah, the matrix starts glitching when The One refuses to reintegrate (since he's supposed to do that to keep the system stable or to let it reboot safely, however it's supposed to work) but his not doing so doesn't cause an immediate system crash and so doesn't actually wipe out humanity instantly and irrevocably. I think we all agree that the Architect wasn't lying - it's just that he uses language like "will result in" and "ultimately" because he's making a forecast rather than a threat. We also know that multiple matrices have failed before, yet that the machines have started from scratch each time. The protagonists of Atlas Shrugged weren't quite engaged in self-deception with regards to their coffee shops and vegetable farms. They really could roll up those sleeves and do those things to sustain their own lives indefinitely, just like expropriated Southern planters could just get jobs or become panhandlers or something. It's not that they can't survive, it's just that they've premised their standard of living on industrial-scale exploitation and won't allow that to be rolled back if they can absolutely help it. In Reloaded, the Architect seems to believe that he can't help it, such that the machines as a species are just going to have to tighten their belts and devolve to whatever lower societal standard they'd be forced to exist at without human neural processing power (or something) to parasitize. But the god machine knows better; it can and does opt to save humanity. This might be because it's afraid of Smith, but why would it allow humans to live afterwards? We don't know the specifics of why the machines bother maintaining the illusion of the matrix rather than keeping people comatose, but since we do know the machines have material needs that the matrix fulfills, we can conclude that the simulation is an integral part of fulfilling that need in some way. I'm partial to the "borrowed neural processing power" idea from the original script (such that the machines would literally live smaller, shabbier, stupider digital lives without our brains to draw on; whatever scarcity issues force them to delete obsolete programs would probably be magnified dramatically if the matrix went down) but it could be just as simple as humans tending to wake up unbidden or shrivel up and die if their brains aren't kept busy. SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's worth repeating that "killing everyone connected to the matrix" includes Architect himself. He does, quite literally, need humans to survive. I don't actually think we're given reason to believe the Architect couldn't just leave. He certainly doesn't think he'll be seeing Neo again, and the matrix doesn't shut down immediately after Neo heads through the wrong door. Beyond that, though, you've actually gotten the significance completely backwards here. The focus of the film goes from an antagonism between Thomas Anderson and the boss to an antagonism between Neo and the cops. Shopfloor struggle and union organizing and so on are usually good (look at such things as the Police Benevolent Association and Solidarnosc for examples of when they're not), but they are also completely factored into capitalism's math and simply do not lead to any kind of revolutionary change in social relations on their own. Actual revolutions were in fact spearheaded by criminals who used fake names, hid in society's margins, and formalized as their chief profession—I am paraphrasing Lenin here, I can find you the quote if you like—fighting the political police. Here's what Neo would get if he put all his revolutionary energy into fighting Mr. Rhinehart: a raise. Meanwhile, invisible machinery would continue to feed off his life-force, day by day. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 00:59
|
|
|
porfiria posted:I think the reasonable answer to all these questions is that the whole Matrix is a bunch of kludges, work-arounds, and quick fixes (like any big piece of software). That's how it's able to deal with simulating physics, or keep the world in a perpetual 1999. But if Hammer Film Productions is over 200 years old, then so is actor Christopher Lee. So who’s appearing as the villain in the matrix’s Attack Of The Clones and Lord Of The Rings 2 (both 2002)? If the machines are just recycling a bunch of centuries-old movies to create a more ‘authentic’ 1999 experience, someone must eventually notice that there is no film industry on Earth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 06:46
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:But if Hammer Film Productions is over 200 years old, then so is actor Christopher Lee. So who’s appearing as the villain in the matrix’s Attack Of The Clones and Lord Of The Rings 2 (both 2002)? Cypher says he wants to be a famous actor so there probably is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 06:57
|
|
|
Necrothatcher posted:Cypher says he wants to be a famous actor so there probably is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 08:01
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Given that Neo and the machines have mutually agreed to crash the matrix and end humanity, Smith's takeover is implicitly an effort to save those lives. lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 08:22
|
|
|
Necrothatcher posted:Cypher says he wants to be a famous actor so there probably is. True, but I prefer my movie nerd machines idea and that, once all human movies were uploaded by it, the machines achieved what modern Hollywood only dreams of doing and mastered deep fake technology to the point where they could create passable films completely free from passion and the creative process.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 13:54
|
|
|
SMG being a highly advanced chatbot means that their opinions on humans vs ai can't be viewed as anything but deeply biased.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:If the machines are just recycling a bunch of centuries-old movies to create a more ‘authentic’ 1999 experience, someone must eventually notice that there is no film industry on Earth. I think the writing of the movies is very very muddled on the scope of matrix earth. I think 95% of the movies it's written as a flat simulation, indistinguishable from our earth. Maybe even implying the viewer is also in the matrix. But specific concepts or lines really imply it's a much more artificial environment. The city they live in is filmed on location in a bunch of famous cities, instead of a specific place, and mostly that can be written off as artistic licence. But in extended media it's specifically named "mega city" and even if that is non-canon (even if the creators call the games canon) it is still an american city that is somehow within 500 miles of a european castle and also the alps. Mostly it seems the main intent was it is just regular earth and the setting is anytown USA, Morpheus goes to england, the animatrix goes to japan, but random parts of the movie do seem like the world is way way more fictionalized and false. The film seems to waffle on if movies would be made in hollywood, the party of megacity that is obviously filmed in california that may or may not be diegetically the california district or if movies come from no where and just appear in a world without hollywood that the fake media just tells you exists.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:31
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:SMG being a highly advanced chatbot means that their opinions on humans vs ai can't be viewed as anything but deeply biased. At the end of Matrix 2, Neo chooses to crash the matrix and kill several billion people. He does this in order to possibly save the population of Zion, including Trinity. Neo: If we don’t do something in 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed. The threat to Zion is repeatedly emphasized in Matrix 3, but the issue of the matrix’s impending crash is never brought up again. At the end of the trilogy, it’s actually rather unclear if any ‘plugged’ humans survived at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 06:25
|
|
|
Does a chatbot chat if no humans are around to chat?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 07:26
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:The Wachowskis addressed the battery thing in an interview from around the time of Cloud Atlas: This seems kind of like modern fusion engines where we need lots of external energy to start and maintain the fusion reaction. Ideally the machines in the Matrix time have made this more efficient so they can generate a net positive. The first movie does kind of the show that the matrix is designed to be self sufficient. People die and get turned into a black goo that is used to feed all the other living. So you need some simulated disasters to kill people at time to feed the others. For a purpose of the matrix, it could be simply that the machines simply found a use for the humans and settled on it. Maybe its simply like evolution. One set of machines started capturing humans and using them to produce slightly more energy than other sets of machines. This seemed to work so they settled on it. I think a lot of movies show Ai as this continually optimizing perfect math gods, but the matrix programs seem to be satisfied with where they are. You never see any programs trying to become the super AI or expand to take over galaxy. They are happy where they are with making weird matrix speeches or baking orgasm cakes. Or maybe the Oracle's goal was the true intention and really machines just wanted humans to be their friends again. So they kept them around until they passed their parole and were ready to rejoin society.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 07:46
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:At the end of Matrix 2, Neo chooses to crash the matrix and kill several billion people. He does this in order to possibly save the population of Zion, including Trinity. They obviously did, since two programs discuss freeing humans who "want out" in the last scene. The impending matrix crash which will supposedly annihilate billions isn't brought up again because it isn't an actual threat. It's just the Architect's best guess as to the consequences of the One refusing to surrender, which has never happened before. I'm sure the Architect believes it, but it's like how factory owners believed that a reduction of the workday from twelve hours to ten would eliminate the "last hour" in which they made all their profits and condemn all of England to ruin. It turns out that someone refusing to do their job doesn't end the world entire but rather shift the terms of the struggle.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 08:14
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvoYtD-0Vf4&t=1smysterious frankie posted:There were definitely movie nerd machines that combed the ruins of civilization after we were sorted away, looking for film prints to restore and upload.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 08:21
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:They obviously did, since two programs discuss freeing humans who "want out" in the last scene. Ah, but that’s not what’s said! Oracle: What about the others? Architect: What others? Oracle: The ones that want out. Architect: Obviously, they will be freed. “The ones who want out” could be anybody - programs like Sati’s mom, for example. This is another example of the ambiguity of expository dialogue without illustration. We’re told in Matrix 2 that approximately 1% of the human matrix population subconsciously chooses escape at a given time. So, even if Oracle is referring to that 1% of humanity, the fate of the 99% remains completely unknown. Did they die in the crash? Are they to remain trapped in some Left Behind bullshit rapture scenario? (And what do you mean by “freeing” anyways?) My point here is to simply show that the fate of the matrix’s population is not a part of the narrative at all. So the interpretation that Neo is fighting for a shorter work-week, or whatever, is not very well supported.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:SMG being a highly advanced chatbot means that their opinions on humans vs ai can't be viewed as anything but deeply biased. Thinking about that SMG/Koos post like Smith trying to break down Morpheus
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 15:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 11:25 |
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ah, but that’s not what’s said! First, this is, again, ridiculous. There is one kind of person who gets "freed from" the matrix: a human plugged into the matrix. They're "freed" by being unplugged and and living in the physical world rather than pods. Programs escape into the matrix. 1% of the human population actually wakes up from the Architect's latest design, which isn't the same as the slice of the population which wants to wake up (much higher, given results from the first two matrices)(those 1% who have heretofore filtered down into Zion aren't actually "freed" either, as they are treated as escaped convicts with death sentences from the moment of their exit). Even if they are literally talking about 1% of the human population it doesn't follow that those and those alone are alive (wouldn't they already be out? why would their fate be in question?) I don't get why you would found your rhetorical point on feigning intense confusion like this. Second, if we want to analogize Neo's fight in specific to some historical process it would be something like the end of agrarian slavery or direct colonial domination. It's been about the matrix's population from the beginning. The theoretical intervention made by these movies (or repeated, rather, because this has borne out in history again in again years before the Wachowskis came out) is that revolutions don't actually come out of abstract, universal love for everybody. In fact, that's what the machines count on to keep their system going unchanged. It's particularistic, historically contingent, national or otherwise identity-based liberation struggles that actually win victories and get results, and those victories are steps in a much bigger, protracted struggle. That struggle retains momentum if it can deliver material benefits to its participants and necessarily involves triage and maneuver rather than making a direct leap into some sort global and messianic deliverance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 15:17
|
|