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Gonzo McFee posted:You've made a powerful enemy today, my friend. No I haven't 
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Oct 7, 2021 15:32
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I'll stop putting words in your mouth when they stop coming out of it. Literally the only that even remotely could be read as minimising anything in the post you quoted is 'only a tiny minority died - numbers not really altogether worse than from other causes', which I agree was pretty badly worded. I was getting at the fact that proportionally, only a small percentage of infected people died, and there are lots of other diseases you can get with much worse odds. The issue with covid is how contagious it is. If it only spread at the rate your average seasonal virus does, it probably wouldn't have even made the news. The problem was the pressure on the health service, not the disease itself being exceptionally dangerous in individual cases. The rest of sections you bolded I stand by 100% because they refer to now, not to last year. And with vaccines, covid is essentially neutered as a serious threat. The vast majority of deaths occurred before we had 90% vaccination, and I am not minimising how awful that was, but it is simply not the situation we are currently in. Yes, even with vaccination some people will get very unlucky, but you can say the same for literally anything. Also ffs I've explicitly said that my initial post wasn't addressed to anyone ITT. If your idea of acceptable public health measures are 'encourage mask wearing, isolate when you're sick, try not to cough all over the milk in tescos etc etc' than we're not actually disagreeing about anything. Spangly A posted:If you get the idea that different things are different then stop trying to use slippery slopes and the spectre of ideology to criticise hypothetical vaccination policies fgs I do know where you're coming from, I'm just very mindful of the ways the medical profession has historically been used as an arm of state power. Also I think there's a pretty big distinction to be made between active intervention like mandatory vaccination and more passive legislation like mask/vaccine passport enforcement. I certainly don't have an issue with the latter in principle. There's something I hold very sacred about the right to bodily autonomy and the need to consent to anything anyone does to your physical being, which I find very difficult to just suspend out of pragmatism. Ideally we'd get round this with the carrot rather than the stick, lots of education, give people a little inventive to get vaccinated, the rest of it.
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Oct 7, 2021 15:53
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Restricting bodily autonomy is poo poo, its why I can't get an abortion when I want. Which absolutely sucks. Legally restricting a persons right to choose what happens with their own body is extremely sketchy, esp when it comes to medical procedures. I'm very much pro covid vaccine but making it mandatory is just a bad move. I'm a dirt bag authoritarian and even I'm like "loving steady on"
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Oct 7, 2021 15:57
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Also we've got over 90% uptake anyways, almost everyone who is eligible has got their shots. It's not like we're the US where half the country is refusing them out of spite, in which the balance of state coersion vs public health might be worth discussing.
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Oct 7, 2021 16:07
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67%. Not everyone has had their second shot yet, and we aren't yet vaccinating everyone who can transmit covid.
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Oct 7, 2021 16:11
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:67%. Not everyone has had their second shot yet, and we aren't yet vaccinating everyone who can transmit covid. Much higher. They recently updated the covid dashboard so that vaccination data reflects all people 12+. We're on about 85% first doses and just under 80% second, and obviously much much higher than that in vulnerable populations. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
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Oct 7, 2021 16:16
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It's still 67% of people who can transmit covid. Obviously I'm not expecting a 100% vaccination rate or anything close, but I'm sure with effort we can push it to 80%, around where they decided herd immunity would take effect (and as such is presumably where we ideally want the vaccination rate to be).
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Oct 7, 2021 16:42
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What would state coercion to force people to have a vaccine be like though? Would there be a prison sentence or fines if you dont get it? Would you go soft power and let them choose to starve by excluding non vaccinated people from work? Additionally would there be exceptions to this rule like if you have a justifying medical condition/allergy? What would count as justified? Nah, that aint it. If you want people to get vaccinated and take public health seirously you don't need to force them to do anything. The argument would be for- Individuals need to feel part of a whole worth protecting (which is the complete opposite of the dominant politcal ideology of neoliberalism) Science education needs to improve specifically and education needs to encourage critical engagement rather than compliance. That is in an ideal world. Right now IRL to legitimise the current state we have by allowing them to force vaccines and give a legal mandate to further disregard bodily autonomy just doesn't sit right imo.
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Oct 7, 2021 16:44
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thrashingteeth posted:What would state coercion to force people to have a vaccine be like though? We do have a lot of uninhabited islands.
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Oct 7, 2021 16:46
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https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1446107513372372999
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Oct 7, 2021 16:48
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:It's still 67% of people who can transmit covid. Obviously I'm not expecting a 100% vaccination rate or anything close, but I'm sure with effort we can push it to 80%, around where they decided herd immunity would take effect (and as such is presumably where we ideally want the vaccination rate to be). if a person who doesn't get harmed by covid transmits to another person who is not harmed, and those who could be harmed are vaccinated, what's the issue? Point of covid being endemic is that tranmission doesn't matter, harm does. And thanks to vaccination, harm is low.
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Oct 7, 2021 16:50
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Nothingtoseehere posted:if a person who doesn't get harmed by covid transmits to another person who is not harmed, and those who could be harmed are vaccinated, what's the issue? And who else do those infected people come into contact with and infect? How many shop workers, transport workers or random passers by do they infect, and those new people infected, who do they then infect and carry on the chain? How many of those might be vulnerable, or have friends or relatives that they come into contact with who are vulnerable?....
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Oct 7, 2021 17:00
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fuctifino posted:And who else do those infected people come into contact with and infect? How many shop workers, transport workers or random passers by do they infect, and those new people infected, who do they then infect and carry on the chain? How many of those might be vulnerable, or have friends or relatives that they come into contact with who are vulnerable?.... About 1, at the moment. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
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Oct 7, 2021 17:03
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Unbelievable: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/afghan-asylum-deportation-guidance-afghanistan-home-office-b1933921.html quote:
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Oct 7, 2021 17:03
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fuctifino posted:And who else do those infected people come into contact with and infect? How many shop workers, transport workers or random passers by do they infect, and those new people infected, who do they then infect and carry on the chain? How many of those might be vulnerable, or have friends or relatives that they come into contact with who are vulnerable?.... If they're vaccinated they're not really classified as vulnerable anymore though, surely?
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Oct 7, 2021 17:03
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Jedit posted:That's not how 2FA works these days. Instead of a security question they send a token containing a code to an app. The app tells you it's received a token, and asks if you requested it. If you did you enter the code into the site and proceed; if you didn't you don't, and you are warned of an attempted intrusion. The company itself doesn't get any info that you haven't probably given them already when you created your account. Thanks for setting me straight on that.  
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Oct 7, 2021 17:04
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The 100+ a day who die of covid were pretty vulnerable
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Oct 7, 2021 17:10
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ThomasPaine posted:If they're vaccinated they're not really classified as vulnerable anymore though, surely? Well yes, because the most vulnerable who got their 1st & 2nd vaccinations earlier than most are now starting to get booster vaccinations presumably because protection is wearing off. One of the reasons I am being so careful is because most of my neighbours are in their 80s and had their vaccinations back in Jan/Feb/Mar. I'll be due a booster in December. https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/covid-booster-vaccine quote:Who will get a Covid-19 booster vaccine? And just to say what I mentioned a day or so ago, both of my work colleagues (healthy women in their 40s with teenage kids and elderly parents) have both had double vaccinations yet have both caught covid subsequently because they are continually being reinfected by their kids who are being reinfected by school chums and some parents are not exactly telling the truth as whether their kids are ok or not. (Eg one of the women, her son had a text from his friend with friend saying he felt very unwell, while his mother was simultaneously telling my colleague that her son was fine - they do lift shares to some after school activities). Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 17:11
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Weird how the stats about the vaccination status of covid deaths stopped being updated in mid-July when the daily deaths started ramping up again 
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Oct 7, 2021 17:15
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Gort posted:The 100+ a day who die of covid were pretty vulnerable Those are now acceptable numbers, even for some in this thread now... apparently... and sadly...  The Tories were right.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:20
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keep punching joe posted:We do have a lot of uninhabited islands. Ahhh deportation is good actually.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:22
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It's fine, there were already ways to die, so it's acceptable to add additional ways to die, because you already had a chance to die
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Oct 7, 2021 17:22
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fuctifino posted:Those are now acceptable numbers, even for some in this thread now... apparently... and sadly... Fwiw I don't have exact stats but I do know a few people who work in hospitals and NHS management and their take is that the vast majority of the people dying at the moment are dumbass antivaxxers who refused the shots when they were offered months ago. Nothing really verifiable though so take it with a pinch of salt I guess.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:26
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fuctifino posted:Those are now acceptable numbers, even for some in this thread now... apparently... and sadly... Yes, I am happy for 100 old boomers to die of covid after they refused vaccines rather than put a stop on normal life so they can live long enough to toddle over the to ballot box and vote for Boris one last time.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:32
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fuctifino posted:Those are now acceptable numbers, even for some in this thread now... apparently... and sadly... It's not a question of them being right. People will always die in a pandemic, try as we might, and while the Tories are responsible for the great majority of those deaths through their greed, negligence, incompetence and intransigence they cannot fairly be held responsible for all of them. Yes, we can point at South Korea's exceptionally low death rate, but British people are not South Korean. The media have poisoned too many minds for us to react the same way; through Brexit they have taught stupid people that following their own self-destructive impulses and prejudices is sensible, right and good. So, yeah. If we'd averaged 100 deaths a day for the last 18 months I'd say we were doing fairly well. It's still too many, but it's not a number I can blame the government for. We'd have had that level of loss of life even if Corbyn had won in 2019 and had the PLP fully on board.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:38
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Can some of the healthcare workers in this thread maybe start surveying their dying patients on their political views so we can better determine whether covid deaths are good actually or not?
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Oct 7, 2021 17:40
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Yes, I am happy for 100 old boomers to die of covid after they refused vaccines rather than put a stop on normal life so they can live long enough to toddle over the to ballot box and vote for Boris one last time. There is no data from the past three months (the most recent wave of deaths) that supports this. blunt fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 17:43
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Yes, I am happy for 100 old boomers to die of covid after they refused vaccines rather than put a stop on normal life so they can live long enough to toddle over the to ballot box and vote for Boris one last time. A double vaccinated friend of mine died of covid not so long ago. He was 4 years younger than me. Go gently caress yourself.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:44
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A 15 year old girl died of Covid last week. If the government hadn't dithered over authorising vaccinations to 12-18 year olds chances are that she probably would have been vaccinated, and wouldn't have died. I doubt she'll be the only kid that dies either, it isn't just old boomer anti-vaxers that make up that bodycount. So maybe an individuals right to bodily autonomy over vaccination shouldn't trump everyone else's right to have a decreased chance of catching/dying from Covid. And maybe if you don't want to get a vaccine for whatever reason, you shouldn't be allowed to enter shops, classrooms, public transport etc.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:45
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fuctifino posted:A double vaccinated friend of mine died of covid not so long ago. He was 4 years younger than me. Sorry for your loss, but in a country of millions, with 10000 deaths a week in normal times, stories of individuals are not important, no matter how strongly they make you feel (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2021 17:51
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keep punching joe posted:So maybe an individuals right to bodily autonomy over vaccination shouldn't trump everyone else's right to have a decreased chance of catching/dying from Covid. And maybe if you don't want to get a vaccine for whatever reason, you shouldn't be allowed to enter shops, classrooms, public transport etc. Ahh okay so the freedom to starve by being banned from public life is good actually.
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Oct 7, 2021 17:57
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big scary monsters posted:Can some of the healthcare workers in this thread maybe start surveying their dying patients on their political views so we can better determine whether covid deaths are good actually or not? Most of the children I work with can barely tell me what they had for breakfast/lunch, but I'll give it a go. Do you have any visuals I can use for this conversation, or should I create my own?
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Oct 7, 2021 17:58
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Sorry for your loss, but in a country of millions, with 10000 deaths a week in normal times, stories of individuals are not important, no matter how strongly they make you feel Really hoping this is a quote from some shithead tory and not something you actually said.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:02
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I'm glad my booster is coming soon, it makes this plague island inhabitable for me, for another 6 months I guess.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:03
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thrashingteeth posted:Ahh okay so the freedom to starve by being banned from public life is good actually. There's a thing these days called home delivery, or they could always get a vaccinated. Perhaps we just do a calculation on the number of antivaxers who will starve from not being allowed in Asda vs the number of people who don't die from getting a preventable disease.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:06
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Brendan Rodgers posted:I'm glad my booster is coming soon, it makes this plague island inhabitable for me, for another 6 months I guess. Cool photo, what was the Tory conference like?
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Oct 7, 2021 18:08
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It's weird knowing millions of my "countrymen" would consider my death to just be inevitable noise in the statistics. I actually prefer they'd specifically hate me and want me dead. Or at least know I existed.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:09
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Sorry for your loss, but in a country of millions, with 10000 deaths a week in normal times, stories of individuals are not important, no matter how strongly they make you feel How to get threadbanned in one easy step.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:10
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:How to get threadbanned in one easy step. I didn't realize understanding basic statistics was bannable now. If you want to pretend you matter to more than a few hundred people in a country of millions, can I recommend your ego a career in media? We are all numbers in a spreadsheet at the end of a day.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:12
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Nothingtoseehere posted:I didn't realize understanding basic statistics was bannable now. If you want to pretend you matter to more than a few hundred people in a country of millions, can I recommend your ego a career in media? We are all numbers in a spreadsheet at the end of a day. hey data gently caress off back to the enterprise
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Oct 7, 2021 18:15
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