|
Alchenar posted:They're literally putting an entire ethnic group into concentration camps. Even the highest estimates of detainment of Uighurs is lower per capita that US black population in prison right now. There is no sign of mass executions, or credible claims of torture or displacement or anything of the like. It is a repressive action but it is not ethnic cleansing the way the western press is implying (but, importantly, never directly saying), which is trying to equate them to the Nazis in order to manufacture desire for confrontation. It is not good but the number of our allied states operating exactly the same or worse repressive operations clearly indicates there is no grounds for us to claim humanitarian intent in targeting China.
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:16 |
|
|
I will give you that, Ron, if the CCP does invade they'll probably end up using an excuse as utterly bullshit as "the United States has already invaded sovereign Chinese soil and we must defend ourselves!" All warmongers and imperialists dress up their conquests with pretty words and digestible excuses for the audience at home.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
How are u posted:They're pioneering 21st century model genocide and lying to the world's face about it for years and years and years. It's extraordinarily grim. You haven't been paying attention to our proxies then. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:10
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:You haven't been paying attention to our proxies then. I am talking about China, not anybody or any other nation. The CCP is committing an undeniable genocide, and has been for years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
How are u posted:I will give you that, Ron, if the CCP does invade they'll probably end up using an excuse as utterly bullshit as "the United States has already invaded sovereign Chinese soil and we must defend ourselves!" yeah, as expected. Just like US leadership, you imagine we are held accountable to no one. Ill come back and see how you guys feel when we've nuked Shenzhen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
Lol, are the UwU 'innocent china doesn't prioritize conflict' people forgetting the Sino-vietamese war that literally drove Vietnam into alliance with the US shortly after the Vietnam war.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:You haven't been paying attention to our proxies then. Again: Nobody here is saying the US is better in that regard, what we're saying is you are making excuses for the PRC doing it and that's pretty lovely cognitive dissonance. Pharohman777 posted:Lol, are the UwU 'innocent china doesn't prioritize conflict' people forgetting the Sino-vietamese war that literally drove Vietnam into alliance with the US shortly after the Vietnam war. No I did mention improving US/Vietnam relationships due to the PRCs combative actions against them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
How are u posted:I am talking about China, not anybody or any other nation. The CCP is committing an undeniable genocide, and has been for years. Define genocide. What to you consider genocide. Are you speaking of cultural genocide, which is on going in a thousands places, many with US consent, and with nary a whisper of western interest or do you mean a holocaust Because if it's the later, then I deny it. there is no evidence whatsoever of anything of that nature. If it's the former, then fine. yes. We are helping the Saudis do worse in Yemen right now, directly cutting off food to the region and starving an entire populous. And no one is going to war to stop that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:Define genocide. What to you consider genocide. This is straight up whataboutism: We're talking about China here, address the points and stop trying to shift the goal posts. The US is a fascist genocidal nation. No poo poo. What about China and the PRC.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:15
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:This is straight up whataboutism: We're talking about China here, address the points and stop trying to shift the goal posts. no debate is neutral, and we are not outside agents or neutral observers. I care about the material reality of an impending war. China is repressing the region and drawing the populous into the Chinese polity, by force and education. It is bad, and flies in the face of self determination, but it is a usefull imperial action and so like all empires in competition it will do it. That being conceded, should anything be done about it? that's my question, you are all willing to declare the Chinese state bad an evil imperialists but that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that gooses you and those around you up for war. And decrying the US does not counter balance that, not from within the western hegemony Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Oct 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:16
|
|
|
The US will talk a a big game, but ultimately, it will never go to war or risk a single US soldier's life for Taiwan. As a Taiwanese-American, I am sad to type that out, but the idea that the US will be there to protect Taiwanese people beyond some showboat military exercises during peacetime and maybe some sanctions after the fact is a neoconservative power fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:The US will talk a a big game, but ultimately, it will never go to war or risk a single US soldier's life for Taiwan. I wish I could believe that, but exactly the same kind of thing was said before most of the major conflicts of the last century. we can stumble into this very very easily especially given the fragile US psyche about its ability to project strength in the wake of Afghanistan
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:20
|
|
|
I think you really should get out of this thread Ron Paul Atreides if you are going to continuously go  'but whatabout the USA' when discussing stuff china is doing.Discussing how china is bad is not making this thread some sort of accomplice to advocating for war, it is discussing the awful poo poo china proudly shows off in some of its own press releases.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Pharohman777 posted:I think you really should get out of this thread Ron Paul Atreides if you are going to continuously go Yeah, I'm avoiding challenging you all on the direct distortions or outright fabrications you repeat in here because I know you won't be receptive and I suppose that's as good an indication as any of the nature of this 'debate' and yes, this thread is complicit. we all are. that is the nature of my argument. I'm sure this will get me probated but it's the raw true fact of the world we find ourselves in. but fine, I won't bother the thread again. Came back curious to see if there would be any address of the US troops in Taiwan and talked myself into saying something about it, silly me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:40
|
|
|
There's nothing wrong with US troops being in Taiwan any more than there's anything wrong with them being in any other country where they've been invited in, and the only inconsistency (that technically Taiwan is recognised as a part of China not under the control of the government of the PRC) is one that the PRC insists everyone else cling to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:47
|
|
|
The question is why does it matter that there are US Troops in Taiwan. Does Russian troops being on the Chinese border matter too? Taiwan asked for and allows the US to be there because they feel its critical to their stability as a separate entity from China, which is what it is. Not an arm of the PRC or China, and hasn't been for 70 years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
I wonder how many years Taiwan would need to be an independent nation in order for folks like Ron, for example, to concede their legitimacy? Clearly, 70 years is not enough. Perhaps 150 years? 300 years?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
How are u posted:I wonder how many years Taiwan would need to be an independent nation in order for folks like Ron, for example, to concede their legitimacy? We are up to 300 years on Gibraltar and while it is a bit silly it never got returned, check out the Spanish government's attitude towards whether Ceuta and Melilla are integral parts of Spain. (Irredentism is bad, there's a point where you have to accept that borders have changed constantly in history, there's no date you can wind the clock back to that would be fair, and people have a right to live and self-government where they were born). Alchenar fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:58
|
|
|
The thing about "soft power" imperialism is that China is doing a lot of the same things as the US in its economic influence over foreign countries, so it's hard to say that the US is extending its empire economically without also admitting that China is also doing the same thing (unless you have a double standard). With more literal Imperialism, China is more of an empire. It has more different peoples under its direct dominion than the US. It has more recently-incorporated territory like Tibet and Hong Kong that may have been part of previous empires, but the PRC literally didn't exist when they left the previous empire. America's last foreign conquests were 120 years ago, China annexed Tibet 70 years ago. Puerto Rico is currently arguing to get more representation in the US federal government with statehood, Hong Kong was fighting to maintain its autonomy (and representation in the federal government is a moot point because the PRC doesn't work like that). A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1445975294511177728?t=BVCkZ05pA5gogBNdk90npA&s=19 The Great Firewall as economic protectionism to help grow domestic internet industries is certainly a take I haven't heard of before. I'm not exactly sure how much noncompetitive big tech companies in the US have suppressed European internet businesses, or how hard it is for them to try doing their own trust-busting against overseas branches of American companies. Like totally online sites would be hard to rein in, but Amazon as a business needs a lot of stuff inside whatever municipality it's operating in in order to function. There's also the issue of corporate agglomeration where large companies that may have had a head start can just buy up potential competitors or buying up companies just to gain a foothold in another market. The idea it leads with about the US "controlling narratives" sounds like trash though, because the prominence of American big tech shouldn't be stopping foreign journalism, and Europe does have its own controls over some of the internet within its borders and there's been a number of news stories of European countries putting their own constraints on American social media that the US for a long time never chose to domestically. There's also the question of how the US exerts its supposed nefarious control, since they were so laissez-faire on the whole thing for so long. And it also conveniently doesn't mention probably the main reason the Great Firewall was established, censorship so the PRC government could control narratives and prevent its citizens from knowing about things, and trying to prevent foreign social media might've been more about preventing people from coordinating outside of the government's direct control than about viewing social media as economically valuable to foster locally.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The thing about "soft power" imperialism is that China is doing a lot of the same things as the US in its economic influence over foreign countries, so it's hard to say that the US is extending its empire economically without also admitting that China is also doing the same thing (unless you have a double standard). Yeah and I know Russia is kinda planning the same thing along those lines.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:37
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah and I know Russia is kinda planning the same thing along those lines. Don’t forget Serbia, Cuba, and Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:48
|
|
|
True, and the US of course has NSA inline monitoring that functions along the same lines.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
The NSA may be monitoring, but there is no active censorship. I feel that's a pretty big distinction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 18:04
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:This is straight up whataboutism: We're talking about China here, address the points and stop trying to shift the goal posts. if anything, china having a millennia-long and storied mythology of ethnic and cultural exceptionalism (if not outright supremacy); an equally long and storied history of empire and expansionism; a very long history of treating its southern neighbors as vassal states and the brown-skinned residents thereof as untermenschen; and also, now, a more recent history of putting disfavored brown-skinned minorities in concentration camps... ...goes quite some way to explain why there exists a contingent of chinese immigrants to the US who observe white supremacy and instead of thinking "wow this is hosed up", come to the conclusion that we, as han chinese, would be natural, cherished partners in white supremacy 
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
How are u posted:The NSA may be monitoring, but there is no active censorship. I feel that's a pretty big distinction. An even bigger distinction is that while there is monitoring, apparently people can plan literal acts of terrorism and coups online in the US and not be visited by authorities about it, so it’s not as if there is a chilling effect even.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
therobit posted:An even bigger distinction is that while there is monitoring, apparently people can plan literal acts of terrorism and coups online in the US and not be visited by authorities about it, so it’s not as if there is a chilling effect even. Generally in the US its sophisticated to the point where its actual US federal agents or informants that keep pushing the issue, check out details of on the "kidnapping plot" of the Michigan governor
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1445975294511177728?t=BVCkZ05pA5gogBNdk90npA&s=19 Analist is like abstract art, you paint ""Something"", then pretend is ""Something Else"", everyone else applaud or boo. And is not deservad at all. Not justified or rationed enough. We really don't know what would have happened had china not closed the digital borders. Maybe would have resulted in an even larger chinese digital industry. Futurology and What if scenarios are the territory of science fiction authors and chidrens, and theres a unmentioned What if scenario implicit here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:40
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:Define genocide. What to you consider genocide. cultural genocide is genocide you stupid, genocide minimizing gently caress
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:53
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:cultural genocide is genocide you stupid, genocide minimizing gently caress Just to be clear, I'm done seeing genocide minimized or whataboutisms about it. Cultural Genocide is Genocide and doesn't matter if its your favorite country or your most hated, stop trying to tiptoe around it. It will get quickly ramped and whoever does it will be threadbanned
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:56
|
|
|
Mods have been surprisingly tolerant in this thread so far, tbh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
Wistful of Dollars posted:Mods have been surprisingly tolerant in this thread so far, tbh. Its partially because not many people are up to date on happenings in China, I'm trying to change that. Feel free to PM with critique. Its a largely US/EU centric forum.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
Terminal autist posted:Generally in the US its sophisticated to the point where its actual US federal agents or informants that keep pushing the issue, check out details of on the "kidnapping plot" of the Michigan governor I'm pretty sure the implication here, that the plot was entrapment or such by the FBI, is false.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:35
|
|
|
Wistful of Dollars posted:Mods have been surprisingly tolerant in this thread so far, tbh. I think the uncertainty flows from the top, the admins. There are threads on the forums where genocide denial is accepted and encouraged. If the admins/jeff won't come down on it one way or the other, then I can see how we get poo poo like this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:37
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:The US will talk a a big game, but ultimately, it will never go to war or risk a single US soldier's life for Taiwan. Yeah I mean if there’s one thing America hates it’s a chance to use its expensive weapons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
I went back to the OP and while lots of it is still good it's also very written pre-Xi Jinping and so is an interesting look at China from a decade ago. e: and yeah it's wild to me that genocide denial doesn't result straight away in a long timeout followed by bans for repeat offences. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:I went back to the OP and while lots of it is still good it's also very written pre-Xi Jinping and so is an interesting look at China from a decade ago. Yeah, like I said, cracking down
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:53
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I'm pretty sure the implication here, that the plot was entrapment or such by the FBI, is false. Do note I never said entrapment and the implications are yours to make of course. The fact is entrapment is a legal concept neither of us and I'm assuming here are able to comment on as well as the investigative procedures of the FBI. One does wonder though what the benefits of continuing to provide material aid and assistance to a group of militamen you have direct recording of planning to kidnap and execute a sitting governor.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:56
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Its partially because not many people are up to date on happenings in China, I'm trying to change that. Feel free to PM with critique. Its a largely US/EU centric forum. I don't mean it as a critique, just an observation that the whataboutists were given a much longer leash than usually seen outside some other forums. Mod as you see fit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:58
|
|
|
Genuinely not trying to whataburger here, what would the treatment of contemporary native Americans in reservations count as, cultural genocide or literal genocide? Trying to sus out how cultural genocide is being defined
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:16 |
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Genuinely not trying to whataburger here, what would the treatment of contemporary native Americans in reservations count as, cultural genocide or literal genocide? I think there's ample evidence that the US and Canada have been nothing but genocidal towards the native peoples.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 23:59
|
|