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disposablewords posted:He's extremely visually impaired, but he still has some sight - hence even bothering with glasses at all. Yeah, he painted the stall for the festival back at the start of Hanako’s route by basically pressing his face to the banner.
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Oct 11, 2021 17:34
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Oh, fair enough then. Embarrassing that I missed that. I'd been interpreting his glasses as more along the lines of the dark glasses some blind people wear to conceal their eyes. I had begun to speculate about whether a blind person might retain a mannerism like that if they didn't have congenital blindness, but instead grew up sighted and became blind later in life, but it seems like that's not germane here.
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Oct 11, 2021 17:46
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Zeron posted:Was she actually intending to open the box though? We only have Hisao's interpretation of her action to prove that, she could also have just been intending to make carrying it back a game the whole time. Even if she was it's only a bit rude because she has literally no reason to believe it's not Hisao's stuff, like why on earth would Hisao walk all the way to town to pick up someone else's package when he doesn't hang out with anyone but the Council to begin with and Shizune knows that. Kenji asked a member of the Student Council to carry his mail so that the Student Council wouldn't open it, you don't need to side with him. Does Kenji even know Hisao's on the Student Council? Maybe it's clear that he does, but I think he's pretty out of the loop. Besides, he trusts Hisao, so even if he knows, it might be a case of the specific members of the Council he doesn't trust. Falconier111 posted:Shizune pulls it closer to her, intending to open it, and my heart almost leaps out of my throat. She's touching the box, or maybe just scooting the chair that has the box and none of her things on it closer to her and away from Hisao. (It's really not clear from the descriptions here.) Hisao hasn't given her permission to touch it, even if she thinks it's his. And once he's made it clear that he's not inviting her to do so, whatever her intentions, she shouldn't continue trying. Even just moving something toward herself and farther from the person it belongs to is a relatively aggressive action in that sense. Why is she doing it? What possible reason is there? Falconier111 posted:
But here she is, continuing to try to touch it, and I don't care how little you can hear and how little lip-reading ability you have, "No" is pretty drat clear, especially with the body language we see happening here. Pouting over not getting to handle someone else's belongings is immature at the most generous interpretation, and could well be a sympathy play trying to get him to relent and let her do what she wants. Even if she's not trying to open it, she's still intruding and it's still wrong. Making a game with it isn't appropriate for the same reason, nor is writing on something that belongs to someone else. Even I know that much, and I know next to nothing about how human interactions work. I can't believe I need to explain this.
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Oct 11, 2021 18:03
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I think yall are over analysing the actions of a fictional silly highschool kid, whose conduct can be explained with any of those four descriptors
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Oct 11, 2021 18:10
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Fictional: If we're going to invalidate discussion of someone's actions based on this being fiction, why is there a thread? Silly: This may be an explanation for someone's actions, but has nothing to do with them taking responsibility. The moment you start saying "it was just a joke" is the moment when you understand that you've done something you shouldn't have done and are just trying to escape consequences. High school kid: High school is certainly old enough to understand personal property, privacy, and boundaries. More so when the high school kid in question is a member of the Student Council, which should carry additional responsibility no matter how they came to be in that position. If she can tell Emi off for running in the halls, she should know the importance of setting a good example and holding herself to a higher standard of conduct. And lest we forget, she is intruding on someone's private property and failing to respect clearly established boundaries. Throw all the descriptors you want there, that's not appropriate behavior for anyone old enough to use language at all.
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Oct 11, 2021 18:52
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Children often act out to gain attention. Expecting perfection from children is really, really bad and leads to all kinds of problems both immediate and long-term.Falconier111 posted:Also, Zurai, you were supposed to be on that list but I missed you, so there you go. Not sure what I posted that's worth reposting, but you have my blanket permission to do so. Zurai fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Oct 11, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 19:23
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The way they represent Hisao's beginner knowledge of sign language irks me a little, if only because it seems rather sloppy. He doesn't know "armadillo," sure, but he does know "vengeful" of all things? And why not have him catch a word or two in all those stretches of ellipses? In my experience, hearing a language you're just starting to learn sounds like verbal mad-libs - "If we can't ___ the ___ then ___ will be ___" - because common, simple words and grammar stick first, and rarer words later. I don't know sign, but I can't imagine it's any different. Falconier111 posted:I need your permission in the thread or through a PM to put your posts in the OP.
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Oct 11, 2021 20:01
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Nidoking posted:Fictional: If we're going to invalidate discussion of someone's actions based on this being fiction, why is there a thread? 100% agree. Even with her actions being misinterpreted by Misha-who may or may not have her own aspects, as Falconier has said (yeah that feels like stimming too), which are understandable but needs intervention and communication-she has decided to abandon her own responsibilities under not only her belief that she can, but also because she cannot hear or talk to people normally, which means that no one is taking her to task when available. Misha could, but being friends with Shizune feels more like she’s enabling bad behavior. The defense I see of her actions and emotions feel like the one I’ve seen given to female characters who commit harm and manipulation in anime towards their friends and loved ones-usually I think they’re called Tsunderes? Don’t much care for that defense either.
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Oct 11, 2021 21:08
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Who is Shizune supposed to be setting an example for here? In the first part, the only other student present is Hisao and they're both outside of school. In the second part, she doesn't even do anything that would set a bad example. What responsibilities are being abandoned? The first part of the chapter takes place before school starts. Do you mean later on when they're playing games in the Student Council room? They're on their lunch break. Further, when Hisao said "No" and made a serious protest, she backed off about opening the box. Everything after that was about carrying it. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, she made a game out of it. Why is that bad, again? Even Hisao points out that it's not a competition. And in the Student Council room, honestly, engaging Hanako in a game of chess is both shrewd and responsible of Shizune. It's a way to get Hanako a little more comfortable, and she didn't try to force it. She just offered, made her case, and let Hanako decide. I understand not liking Shizune's personality, but I do not get the demonization of her. Zurai fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 11, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 21:33
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megane posted:The way they represent Hisao's beginner knowledge of sign language irks me a little, if only because it seems rather sloppy. He doesn't know "armadillo," sure, but he does know "vengeful" of all things? And why not have him catch a word or two in all those stretches of ellipses? In my experience, hearing a language you're just starting to learn sounds like verbal mad-libs - "If we can't ___ the ___ then ___ will be ___" - because common, simple words and grammar stick first, and rarer words later. I don't know sign, but I can't imagine it's any different. To my very crude understanding, JSL often tries to have vocabulary that works with written Japanese (some signs mimic Kanji for example). Written Japanese is VERY fusion heavy, and "vengeful" can be just "having bad intent" (akui no aru). Plus armadillo aren't native to Japan. On the other hand, there have been a lot of times this game has shown pretty strongly that at least some of the writers are very American, so they could have just picked a word at random and hit one that I go "yea sure why would you learn that one."
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Oct 11, 2021 21:47
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 Interviews with Monster Girls, Episode 3: "Succubus-san is a Real Adult” (Pt. 2)  Now we go back to the biology prep room, where Takahashi’s expanding his notes and reflecting on just how many demis he’s run into in such a short time.  Hikari swans in, complaining about the heat…  … Before popping between him and his computer to read what’s on the screen. When she asks about her part in all this, he tells her he’s been taking down notes on their interviews…  … Especially the connection between bloodsucking and sexuality, which embarrasses her. He apologizes for taking her out of her comfort zone, leaving her feeling on the back foot. And she responds by…   She responds by pretending she isn’t embarrassed at all.  And he takes her at her word.  And he asks Hikari how it compares to kissing and sex. She nearly shuts down as sekusu echoes dramatically in the background, but she pulls herself together, protesting she doesn’t know because she has no romantic experience (though apparently she did suck someone’s blood once). And he keeps loving pressing! Halfway through growing her about her opinion on similar things in movies…   … The part of his brain that isn’t playing amateur anthropologist realizes he’s gone a bit too far.  He starts rambling about how it changes from person to person over time to dig himself out of it…  … Before he realizes that he may be off base and bloodsucking’s sexual connotations might reflect cultural rather than biological factors. And then he starts rambling about how it might relate to sex again. Finally, Hikari snaps, has him come closer…   … And tries to take back control of the situation by kissing him on the cheek and declaring that kissing is easier than bloodsucking.   Motherfucker no-sells it. While she stands there blushing, he just turns around and jots that down like she told him her opinions on garlic.  As she yells at him not to write it down, Takahashi reflects that Hikari just isn’t ready to talk about this yet. gently caress, man, who’d’ve thought? He wonders what demis with more romantic investment might think about such situations.  Cut to the two demis romantically invested in him. Kyouko’s homeroom teacher asked her to carry a heavy box to the school library, and Satou had to step in because apparently this teacher couldn’t conceive of how that might be an issue. They both settle in and start filing books out of the box and into the shelves.   Kyouko informs Satou that she seems like the sort of person who has plenty of relationship experience.  She doesn’t have the balls to deny it and start playing along while Kyouko confesses she has a crush…  … On Takahashi.  Satou silently agrees.  Wipe cut to Takahashi in the hallway.   He sees Yuki in the hallway and calls out to her, but those two guys who literally bumped into Satou earlier swing by mid-call, walk up to her, and one of them asks her out. She emphatically refuses and retreats.  After he whacks both of them on the head for scaring her off, the two turn around to Takahashi to complain about them taking out his anger on them. Which he just acknowledges, and then they move past it while he tries to figure out how to put it.  He spends so long thinking about what he has to say to Yuki and how he wants to say it a crowd gathers to spectate. The boys comment that that while they don’t really mind his behavior, he is kind of weird. Do teachers hit children in Japanese schools? Like, I know he’s not beating them, but if this happened where I live the whole town would know immediately because they’d smell the oncoming string of lawsuits.    Back in the library, Kyouko and Satou are still talking about Takahashi; Kyouko’s confiding her worries about not meeting his standards, and Satou’s trying desperately to keep her feelings under wraps and act like the experienced, mature, supportive figure Kyouko thinks she is instead of a hapless dork.  She tries to deflect attention by giving genuinely good advice; a lot of the confidence and maturity kids see when they look at adults is just a front put up for the benefit of others; it protects them, making them look better. This goes double for teachers, who want to look good to their students. Kyouko asks if that applies to Satou, too.  Sheout loud refuses to commit.  She narrates that it absolutely does. Hearing her seiyuu hiss “so desu  ” as the music briefly cuts out is a treat. Kyouko asks if that applies to Takahashi as well, though, which makes Satou pause. They may both be teachers, but there’s actually a pretty big age gap there (he’s in his early 30s), so he comes off as mature to her too.  She starts talking about all the things she finds attractive about him: the way he balances a relaxed approach to life with reliability, his ability to connect with anyone, his respect for boundaries (yeah, sure)…   … Before realizing she just spent the last several seconds talking about how hot Kyouko’s crush is and tries to deflect attention back onto what she thinks. Kyouko agrees on all points…   … And adds his arms to the pile, which Satou loudly endorses.  Satou tries to pull the conversation back on track by recommending Kyouko changeup her appearance, maybe try a new hairstyle. But Kyouko explains that’s off the table for a couple of reasons. She could in theory grow her hair out, but if it got long enough to get in the way of her hands, it would make holding her head difficult and dangerous; she keeps it short for a reason. And while she could go for another short hairstyle…  … He did say once he liked how they have the same haircut, so she’s inclined never to change it again.   Satou fails to contain her jealousy.   Wipe cut to later in the day. Satou starts narrating again, retreading the beginning of the episode as she files way books with hilariously on-the-nose titles. E: to wit: Ghost Car posted:Almost all the book titles in that frame are really on the nose in some way:   Yuki’s walking through the halls at the end of the day when she hears voices in the girls’ bathroom.   Two girls are badmouthing her in there. Pretty strong stuff, too; they’re accusing her of being arrogant and superior, unwilling to give that one guy the time of day because she thinks she’s better than everyone.  She does not respond well.   Elsewhere in the school, as rain starts to come down outside, Hikari says goodbye to Takahashi in a typically excitable manner before dashing off.   As he makes his way up some stairs, he notices the stairwell is abnormally cold and full of fog.   It’s Yuki, crouched in a corner, letting off waves of cold air and only barely able to respond when he approaches her. End episode. Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 22:41
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Falconier111 posted:Misha windmills her arm at high speed to show her joy. Weird habit. This is the kind of thing you could only see in the student council room, occupied only by three people. Anywhere else she would end up socking someone in the face. For what it's worth, I didn't know what you were talking about here, until I saw: Psycho Lawnmower posted:... Even with her actions being misinterpreted by Misha-who may or may not have her own aspects, as Falconier has said (yeah that feels like stimming too)... ... And "stimming" rang a bell. I had to look it up though. I might have heard the term before somewhere... but obviously it's not something I'm that familiar with.
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Oct 12, 2021 07:26
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Stims when happy, good to know.
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Explopyro posted:I thought Kenji was blind? Does this mannerism even make sense in this context? I'm having a hard time putting it into words, and I have only dealt with one blind person in my life, but being blind doesn't mean showing emotions in different ways. Blind people still smile when happy and look sad when sad, even when they've never seen someone do either. These sorts of things are baked in.
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Oct 12, 2021 16:33
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Dance Officer posted:I'm having a hard time putting it into words, and I have only dealt with one blind person in my life, but being blind doesn't mean showing emotions in different ways. Blind people still smile when happy and look sad when sad, even when they've never seen someone do either. These sorts of things are baked in. It's more about a paranoid habit of visually scanning your surroundings. Kenji's the eager conspiracy theorist, after all. I confess now I'm a tiny bit curious about what kind of similar gesture someone blind from birth (or so close as to not really matter) might have to show the same thing, like would they have the same eye movements involuntarily, but I'm also not curious enough to actually go prying - it's not really my business.
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Oct 12, 2021 18:33
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Just now noticed that I was included in that blurb on the last page. Since I think I did a good job of scrubbing out any PII: I grant you permission to use my posts in this thread going forward unless I specifically say otherwise. There, the magic words have been spoken. Woohoo. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Oct 12, 2021 |
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Oct 12, 2021 20:04
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Looks like the script had a duplicated line hereFalconier111 posted:Every chance she gets, Misha asks me why I want to hide the fact I'm learning sign language from Shizune. Looking back on it, there really wasn't any reason, but now I think I know. If I want Shizune to be able to treat me as a true equal, sign language is an important step towards that goal. If I want to be able to treat Shizune as an equal, then sign language is an important step towards that goal. Another important step is to make sure she doesn't know, so that when we're able to finally speak on equal terms, I'll be fully ready, able to do it right, not like some dilettante. Anything less, I think, would be insulting. She would see it the same way. So to me, this is the only option. Especially now that I've decided to be so resolute with it. Falconier111 posted:She glares at me as if to tell me off, but she can't. With that box in her hands, she is basically gagged. A sad expression flickers across her face for a second, maybe on realizing that and having to acknowledge that there are some limitations she has to deal with after all. I don't remember if there's been much discussion about this yet, but one thing that I struggled with a lot growing up was running into and dealing with situations that remind me I have a disability. I was born with a bad right shoulder. I can do stuff with my arm/hand/whatnot but it's not great. My grip strength is bad, I can't rotate my hand as much as normal, and I can barely lift my arm up much past shoulder height. Here's a link if you want to read up on Erb's Palsy but it's not too exciting. My case was from something during birth. Anyways, I mostly grew up like I was left handed and tried not to think too much about my arm. I knew I had limitations but it was never really on the forefront of my mind or anything. When I was younger I had real problems whenever I was reminded of my arm. Some activity would pop up that would remind me hey there's stuff you can't ever do and I absolutely hated that feeling. The negative reaction wasn't just restricted to activities, I also had a really hard time talking about my arm. Explaining things to fellow students was very difficult moreso than adults I think. I'm not sure if it was a desire to feel normal or maybe out of some sense of pride. I'm going to put this last reason in a spoiler tag because it's pretty hosed up view upon reflection, but kid me was very hard on myself. I think really I viewed myself as broken and didn't want to be reminded of that feeling ever. Mostly I'd only get reminded because of PE. Stuff like climbing ropes, doing pushups, or even just certain motions in whatever sport of the week we were playing. I don't remember anymore, but I'm sure PE teachers knew ahead of time from school files or something so it never deliberate stuff on their part. I've got one memory from middle school of trying not to cry after the PE teacher explained the rules to some sport and they noticed and approached me to see if I was okay after the class started moving to the court/field and I told them it was just allergies. So good on that teacher for trying to subtlety reach out to me and bad on me for being immature about it all. Basically, I repressed the hell out of everything and developed a series of habits and mannerisms to hide I have an arm problem at all. It's to the point that people didn't even notice I have a bad arm unless I tell them about it (which really only comes up if moving something heavy or awkward for gripping is involved). But if I were to stand with my arms at my side it's really obvious one of my arms hangs funny and is a little shorter looking than the other. It certainly wasn't a healthy way to deal with things growing up. It became easier to handle situations and I was less harsh on myself as I got older (think from middle school age through early college). Not entirely sure if that was just through age and other life experiences, or if each time I had to come to terms with my arm it was a little easier than the last. To try not to be too negative of a post, I'd like to think I'm much better about everything nowadays. Anyways, Shizune had a minor reaction during this box carrying scene. I'm certainly not going to project anything on what she was thinking here, but I absolutely understand her reacting at all. Her personality is very outgoing and commanding, so even the smallest reminder of limitations has to knock the wind out of her sails even a little bit. I know this isn't the strongest example to bring up my history, but it's the most clear one since I've caught up on the thread.
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Oct 13, 2021 00:31
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Almost all the book titles in that frame are really on the nose in some way: Son of Man Fictions (Borges) Demons (Dostoyevsky) No Longer Human (the original title of which can be more literally translated as "Disqualified from Being Human") Something I can't make out because the subtitle is in the way, but the part that is visible says "Love" One Hundred Years of Solitude Vita Sexualis The Living Corpse I have no idea what Fictions is doing there, but otherwise, a lot of references to humanity and monstrousness along with romance/sex and loneliness. Also, I don't know if it would provoke lawsuits, given that Japanese culture is kind of less litigious in general, but no, teachers don't commonly manhandle students like that. (In my experience, at least.)
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Oct 13, 2021 02:29
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Nidoking posted:Fictional: If we're going to invalidate discussion of someone's actions based on this being fiction, why is there a thread? Hisao is into Shizune (and she can probably tell since she's tuned to picking up on body language in the literal sense). Shizune is into Hisao too and is teasing him and needling him to get him to open up. Her actions in the scene are literally a way of her communicating "I want to get physical with you" (not sexually, at least yet) "and deepen our friendship beyond just being in the Council and having tea together". She is doing so in a way common to anime tropes, slightly impeded by being deaf-mute. That's all there is to it.
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Oct 13, 2021 02:37
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bewilderment posted:Hisao is into Shizune (and she can probably tell since she's tuned to picking up on body language in the literal sense). Shizune is into Hisao too and is teasing him and needling him to get him to open up. Her actions in the scene are literally a way of her communicating "I want to get physical with you" (not sexually, at least yet) "and deepen our friendship beyond just being in the Council and having tea together". And see, this is why I still can't function in human society. The message "No means no" is absolute, personal boundaries are sacrosanct, and looking at someone too often (or not enough) can be grounds for termination in a business setting, but everything suddenly gets reversed if it's drawn in a certain way or feels like it should be. I wasn't aware that my rights could be suspended if I were attracted to someone. But I'd be willing to bet any stakes at all that the same reasoning wouldn't hold up in any court, at least not if the other party has roughly the same skin color, gender presentation, and command of the English language as me. I think I was accused of demonizing Shizune earlier, and that's not what I'm intending to do. I'm just saying that her actions in this latest scene are very much not okay, and the sum of her actions overall has amounted to a kind of bullying that makes me very uncomfortable. She's capable of making good decisions, but she's made some very, very bad decisions in this story so far. Making bad decisions doesn't make someone a bad person, but it does obligate them to understand why what they're doing is wrong and change their behavior. Disability isn't a factor in that - there are many ways to communicate interest in someone that don't involve making them stand up and yell (equivalently) in a public place to get you to stop, or intruding on the privacy of a third party. The whole point of this game, or so I understood, was to say that disabilities don't change a person's fundamental humanity and that their intimate relationships are just like anyone else's, except for the details that are unique in every relationship. Respect is just as fundamental to that as any other aspect. I'm going to hide the rest of my story behind a spoiler bar because it's so deeply uncomfortable and some people may not want to read it. If anyone read my list of reasons I can't fall in love and thought "Wow, this guy's got deep-seated issues he's blaming on women," well, yes, I've been impacted in a way that probably doesn't fit most definitions of sexual abuse or sexual assault, but still left me very affected, and comments like these are a big part of the reason I can't get past blaming myself for the whole thing. And it was pretty much exactly what we're seeing here, only she wasn't deaf. A whole lot of "I know you're attracted to me, so you aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with this, and if you try to create space between us or set personal boundaries that I don't like, I'm going to push past them." It wasn't body-to-body contact at first, but that's just one more boundary, and by the time it gets there, the pattern is already well-established and incredibly difficult for the victim to break. The tropes actually make this even worse by setting further expectations - when this happened to me, shows like The Man Show were at their height, and every depiction of human relationships I knew about went something like "The man desires the woman, and the woman secretly desires the man but can't admit it. Having sex is what you have to do no matter what it costs, because it's the pinnacle of human experience, so here are ways to make sure it happens and prevent her from being able to say no." There was nothing to instruct me on what to do when I didn't want to but she did. All the information was about turning a "No" into a "Yes", and there was no guidance for the opposite. She said it was an obligation. She said my reasons for saying no were invalid. She was part of the group of friends I'd made and I didn't want to be cast out of the group over a disagreement. And once we'd crossed that boundary, I had even less ability to say it needed to stop as I grew less and less comfortable with what was happening. I could say more, but I think that's enough to get the current point across. When scenes like this exist, and people take that as a representation of what love can be or even should be like, it can cause real harm. In any case, if the people who are trying to convince me that this is all okay are not intentionally trying to enable that kind of situation, they should stop. And saying "It's just a box, relax" tells me you didn't read what's in the spoiler, in which case, that's your business, but I do not welcome further discussion, directed at me, from anyone who didn't read it. Falconier, please don't add the above paragraph to any archive.
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Oct 13, 2021 11:04
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I think the key difference between this situation and yours (and, cliche as it is, I'm truly sorry that happened, it's hosed beyond belief) is that, as far as we know, both Hisao and Shizune are neurotypical. NT relationships tend to rely more on gently (or not so gently, in Shizune's case) pushing boundaries and readjusting according to the reaction it gets, and there's a lot more forgiveness around what, to an average* autistic person, would be a serious offense (the Box Thing, in this case.) *I say average because Misha pretty clearly reads as on the spectrum to me, but of the "pushy extrovert" type, so she and Shizune get along fine. Sometimes it's like that...because it's a spectrum! Neuroatypical people (and disabled people in general) are also at increased risk of being taking advantage of. In my personal experience, I've had multiple people push for closer physical contact than I was comfortable with, because I couldn't verbalise my discomfort. Compared to anecdotes from other autistic friends, my experiences have been extremely mild. The rates of sexual abuse against autistic people is something like three times higher than the general population. So...there's that. If I sound like an alien trying to dissect human relationships, that's basically how I've learned to get by  (OP, you have blanket permission to include anything I post in archives, attributed to "mycelia")
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Oct 13, 2021 12:02
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"Forgiveness" implies that something has happened that shouldn't have happened. It's still a serious offense, but they decide to set it aside in the interest of preserving the relationship. If that's the allistic way to do things, I think they're the ones with the mental health problem. Let me be even more specific - I don't think Shizune should be reaching for the box at all, but I can see one attempt as a playful gesture that would be socially acceptable given their relationship at this point. When Hisao stops her, that is drawing a boundary and setting the standard of acceptability. This is no longer an object of mutual interest, and she is not welcome to further attempt to touch or open it. The description of it potentially turning into a tug of war seems to be passing by most people - he's genuinely worried that she will try to open Kenji's package. Whether she intends to do that or not, the fact that he's able to read her actions that way is pretty distressing. And frankly, saying "It's okay because he's probably not autistic and can just forgive her for whatever she does" is, no kidding, what people typically say when they're interviewed about someone who's committed sexual assault and why they didn't intervene. They saw what they now recognize as bad signs, but thought it was okay because the eventual victim eventually got over it and the relationship continued. If someone not being obviously overtly autistic is an acceptable reason to decide not to respect their boundaries... yeah, I'm just done with y'all's human society. Acceptable relationships come in two flavors. One, any sign of apparent discomfort is a signal to stop what you're doing and have a good think about whether it's even appropriate to ask whether you can continue. Two, a mutual agreement that some level of apparent discomfort is okay, and an unambiguous signal that anyone can use to make it clear that they're asserting a boundary, with no argument allowed. Discussion about the boundary should ideally be tabled until the situation has changed, so there's no emotional connection and whatever needs to be explained can be explained properly. If that sounds like too much trouble, I say not having a way to get people to stop doing something when you really need them to is too much trouble. I say any room for confusion over how acceptable something you're doing might be (whether you actually have that confusion or not) is too much trouble. I say the idea that someone might not have a clear way to express their needs available to them is too much trouble. Pushing boundaries is not violating them - it's testing to see where they are. Once that's established, it's not acceptable to go past them, regardless of the mental capacity of anyone involved.
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Oct 13, 2021 12:44
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Effective consent negotiation does involve more than just verbal signals (for example, someone can say yes but be clearly so nervous that it would be a bad idea to proceed without some more discussion first) but media tends to be really bad at depicting people working through any sort of confusion, and jumps straight to "I know exactly what you really want/mean because that's romantic". And this can set up some very messed-up expectations and be exploited by bad actors. It also becomes a relationship issue outside of sexual consent because people feel like they have to play a game by secret rules and don't talk about things the way they should. The first person I ever dated, our breakup involved a big pile of neither of us having properly talked to the other about all the things we were worried about, because that didn't sound romantic, which led to us drifting apart, and even the actual breakup, we jumped to a bunch of conclusions about what the other wanted instead of being clear how we each actually felt. Getting back together, years later, we'd developed a tendency to over-explain in order to try and avoid making a mess of things again. "I'm saying this to be flirtatious btw." "This is just me being bratty I'm not mad." "I am not actually fishing for a present, I do not care if you send me a present or not, if you WANT to send me a present I can make suggestions, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO." and so on. (And of course, detail negotiation is extremely difficult when there's a communication barrier involved.)
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Oct 13, 2021 13:02
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Nidoking posted:And frankly, saying "It's okay because he's probably not autistic and can just forgive her for whatever she does" is, no kidding, what people typically say when they're interviewed about someone who's committed sexual assault and why they didn't intervene. They saw what they now recognize as bad signs, but thought it was okay because the eventual victim eventually got over it and the relationship continued. If someone not being obviously overtly autistic is an acceptable reason to decide not to respect their boundaries... yeah, I'm just done with y'all's human society. That's not what I was trying to say at all, but I'll accept that my wording was unclear. I was talking about this scene specifically, but I realised after rereading your post you meant Shizune's behaviour over the entire route. I don't think this is the most egregious thing she's done. My comment on Hisao's neurotypicality referred specifically to his inner monologue, which indicates he's briefly irritated by her actions and then moves on. I wasn't focused so much on what she did as I was on how Hisao reacted to her. I wasn't trying to say...uh, any of that. I'm not really sure how to express what else I want to say, so I think I won't try, except to say that humans are complicated. I'm certainly not trying to convince you that Shizune's not a jerk, or that Hisao should put up with her. But he does, and in my experience, sometimes people do that, and it's not because of abuse or manipulation. If that's not acceptable to you, that's okay. I just wanted to try to explain the disconnect between your reading and other people's.
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Oct 13, 2021 14:50
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I'm firmly with Nidoking on this one. (Also, Nidoking, while you may have good reasons for not wanting to use terms like sexual assault or sexual abuse, or even rape, and I'm not sure you either need or want to hear this from me, I want to give you explicit permission to use them. The situation you've described certainly qualifies as far as I'm concerned, and maybe thinking about it in those terms will be helpful to you. It was for me, at least. I've been kind of vague about my story here, but maybe I should go into detail?) I think, in many ways, we're reprising the old "Ask Culture versus Guess Culture" dichotomy that got a lot of discussion a few years back. (Here's a good basic overview.) To sum it up the best way I can, these are two different basic paradigms for how communication of requests might work. "Ask culture" boils down to "it's OK to ask for anything, but they might say no". "Guess culture" is trickier to summarise but is something like "saying no is rude, so people shouldn't ask for things unless they know the answer is likely to be yes". The "guess" aspect comes down to the fact that very often, in these cultures, what actually happens is that people communicate in subtler ways so the person will offer the thing without needing to be asked (facile example: "Oh, your food looks really tasty." "Would you like a bite?", as opposed to the Ask Culture version, "Can I taste that?") I'm one of those people who takes a fairly hardline stance on this that Ask Culture should be normalised, because Guess Culture (well, guess cultures) require too many unstated assumptions and turn harmful far too easily, but I've seen nuanced takes on it that convince me it's not quite so simple. These are two different forms of communication that people engage in in different contexts (and, for that matter, some people might be Askers in one domain or context and Guessers in another; this model is an oversimplification). People who are raised Guess have a really hard time transitioning out of it, and perceive Ask Culture as rudeness or presumptiveness. Also, as we've discussed already, neurotypicality is another dimension that complicates this; arguably, Guess cultures operate under an assumption that everyone involved is neurotypical. But, regardless, as this piece I'm fond of linking points out, in a sexual or romantic context, Guess Culture looks an awful lot like rape culture, and that isn't okay. On top of that, a lot of mainstream romance tropes very obviously run on a Guess Culture substrate. How many times have I heard "but asking for consent is unsexy!" (sigh). The romantic ideal in fiction so often comes down to "they know each other's minds so well they don't have to ask". When this sort of thing becomes culturally idealised, it's even easier to doubt your own perceptions, or have a harder time communicating that you're not okay with a thing that's happening. I think this might be a useful dimension to help explain why we're having such different perceptions here?
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Oct 13, 2021 14:53
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Personally, I think one of the problems here is that different people have different boundaries. Shizune's behavior is unacceptable to Nidoking because it blows past their boundaries. Meanwhile, in general, her behavior would definitely toe the line of my personal boundaries, but the only time she's been well over the line for me is when she/Misha called Hanako a delinquent out of the blue. Especially the stuff specific to Shizune's route has been, to my perception, teasing but relatively respectful. When Hisao tells her "No!" about the box, she looks mulish for a bit, sure, but she doesn't go after it anymore. That's not a sign of boundaries being pushed, to me, that's a sign of boundaries being respected. She clearly wants to keep going, but she respects that Hisao told her no and stops. That increases my trust in her because it shows that she's willing to put Hisao's preferences above her own. To be clear, Shizune wouldn't be the character I would either pick or end up with in this story (if indeed I picked or ended up with any at all). She's definitely too pushy and energetic and outgoing for me, I can't handle that much energy all the time.
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Oct 13, 2021 15:43
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Maybe I'm missing the point of the discussion, but personally I'm less interested in if the behaviour is problematic or not and more interested in how it's going to change and lead to new developments. I can forgive behaviour that wouldn't fly IRL in fiction if it actually goes somewhere interesting.
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Oct 13, 2021 16:14
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Let’s throw some loving fuel on this fire. That sounds like a good idea  . Update 67: Bread, Paper, Scissors Katawa Shoujo OST - Fripperies .png) The chessboard is set up. The opening move is important. .png) However, Shizune doesn't seem to care. .png) Hanako ponders her moves carefully, sliding pieces forward just a little bit, then pulling them back in uncertainty, second-guessing herself over and over again. She's really into this game; you can't call her a casual player. Definitely an enthusiast. Shizune can't take her lightly; no matter what she does, Hanako has an appropriate response. Yet there's something wrong about the pacing of this game. .png) Shizune moves too quickly. No, not even too quickly, but with illogical speed. It's like she isn't even thinking about what she'll do next. Either Shizune is in the realm of supercomputers, or she isn't taking this game very seriously. Or maybe Hanako just isn't very good. .png) Shizune forces an exchange of pawns. Hanako's turns take increasing amounts of time as the game goes on, and it hasn't even been going on that long. Suddenly it all becomes clear: Shizune has a lot more time to think about her next move because Hanako takes forever to move a piece. Despite that, it's an interesting game. Black knight to f6. Bishop to d3. Since they're both playing seriously, no one is toying with the other. There is no clearly dominant player, at least for now. Maybe this is helped by the fact that they aren't very close to each other, from what I can see. Shizune is a mysterious opponent to Hanako, and Hanako is an enigma to Shizune. Hanako's furrowed brow shows that she is into the game. She wants to really win, and Shizune always wants to win. Their lack of familiarity is a little depressing, but it is giving life to the game, and allowing them to see each other as good competition. Maybe they might even end up being friends over it, or at the very least, rivals in chess. It's an optimistic thought. Although remembering playing Risk against Shizune, she doesn't want to just crush people for the fun of it. The game continues. Shizune plays twelve moves in four minutes. What a scary opponent. But Hanako holds her own, even though her king is being chased around the board a bit. Pawn to h6. White knight to e6. The end is near. … The game ends. (Silence)  SHIZUNE: "..." .png)  MISHA: "That was a really good game~!"  HANAKO: "T-thanks..." Katawa Shoujo OST - Ease SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "It was really close~, I thought I would lose. You're very skilled." Magnanimous in victory, and extending a hand to the defeated. Maybe it's because Hanako is taking her defeat so well. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "This is a fun game, but it took so long. Almost the whole period! Chess is too formulaic, especially at this level. How about some advanced rules~?"  HISAO: "What?" HANAKO: "Ad... vanced...?" SHIZUNE: "... ... ..." MISHA: "Yeah, yeah~! Like speed chess, or chess with additional pieces, or maybe we can pair up and play tag team chess, with one or two boards, your choice! C'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon it'll be fun, really, really~! Regular chess is so slow, too methodical, it's boring. I want to play chess that rewards quick thinking, and daring! Any one of these, comparing chess to it is like comparing checkers to go, or tic-tac-toe to shogi, right? Right~! Wahahaha~! Even laser chess might be more exciting, pick something, pick~!" HANAKO: "Aaaah..." Like a deer in the headlights. Many emotions spring up in me, watching Hanako's mind reel in front of the chessboard as if she's about to faint. The dominant one is amusement, but I move a little closer in case she might really topple over. .png) The board is set up again, but this time, it's not even close. Hanako can't even make a move out of fear of her hand colliding with Shizune's. She's all over the board. It's an onslaught. Anywhere Hanako wants to put a piece, Shizune is already there. It's the fastest game I've seen in my life. MISHA: "Let's change the rules and play again~! Best out of six, like Kasparov and Deep Blue~!" Hanako excuses herself and flees from the room. MISHA: "Huh? Wait! Ah, didn't she want to know where she could get a new ID? Excuse me! Hello~? Come back, please! Wait, wait~! Wait~!" (Silence) Strangely, the farther Misha goes away, the louder the sound of her voice seems to grow. .png) MISHA: "I couldn't catch her~..." Katawa Shoujo OST - School Days SHIZUNE: "..." Shizune pats her on the shoulder reassuringly. HISAO: "There, there." MISHA: "There, there~!" HISAO: "You're pretty cheerful for someone who needed a pat on the shoulder." MISHA: "Ahahaha~!" … SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hicchan, do you hate games where luck is involved?" A question out of nowhere, but it feels like an important one. If it wasn't, why would Shizune be looking at me, watching for my reaction? Even as I glance in her direction, she tries to pretend she isn't doing so, putting on a casual air by spinning a chess piece in her fingers. MISHA: "“I don't like games that revolve around luck of the draw,” right? That was you, Hicchan~." HISAO: "Yeah. Revolving around luck isn't the same as just having luck involved, though. I don't hate games just for having an element of luck. Most games have an element of luck to them anyway. It's what keeps them interesting.” .png) HISAO: "I think a game where you know from the beginning how far you can go is boring. Then it's not a game, isn't it? Just going through motions. For a game where you have little to no control, I don't think I could get into something like that." SHIZUNE: “[I see.]" MISHA: "That girl isn't very good at chess." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Chess is a formulaic game. So~! It's a game that isn't suited for her... There was nothing formulaic about her. Someone who plays chess like that, looking only at the next piece, playing so shallowly, can't be called a serious chess player. Anyone who loves chess to the point where their eyes sparkle like that when they see a chessboard would be the kind of person who would study the game. If you study it just casually, you can learn to see at least two moves ahead, even against pros. Why would someone who loves the game so much... with that enthusiasm... know so little about it? Even less than someone with just a passing interest in it?" Shizune puts down the piece in her hand. It's a rook. SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Her feelings are real, but her feelings for the game aren't real. Do you understand, Hicchan~?” .png) MISHA: "There is no luck in chess~! It's very important to realize that. Luck in games is good because it gives everyone a chance. Just enough to matter, but not so much that skill is penalized. Chess is boring because it's not a game; to me, it seems like formulas. Hanako isn't the kind of person who would love something like that either~." SHIZUNE: "..." .png) MISHA: "If you value something, you fight. Struggle is proof of precs— preciousness? I think so, at least. Or~! You concede immediately~! Since it's so precious that it stops your thinking. The first is a passionate love. The second is a gentle love." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "I tried to fight her, chasing around her king, and trying to bait her. I didn't succeed though, because she stuck to only what would work. The trickiest moments were when she moved the fastest. That means she knew exactly how to deal with those situations. That means someone taught her. Do you understand, Hicchan~?" HISAO: "Not really." SHIZUNE: "..." .png) MISHA: "If you love chess that much, but you can't give it your all, it's because you love the memories attached to it and not the game; it's too precious to her to see as a tool for true competition." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Due to that, you can't become friends over it. Not without words." (Silence Well, your way of making friends isn't the kind of way that works on everyone, Shizune. The look on her face isn't one of sadness, at least as far as I can tell, but her words are very sad. HISAO: "Hey, let's play a game. While the board is still here." But the bell rings and cuts me off. Katawa Shoujo OST ~ Passing of Time .png) Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight Things have returned to normal. Well, I transferred in at a pretty unusual time, and I can hardly say that I had a normal first few weeks here. I guess it's more like things have calmed down, and reached normality. I've been here longer than I thought. It's hard not to think about all the stuff I must have missed in this school before my arrival, or the things that might have happened in my old school since I've been gone. I wonder where these feelings come from, since I didn't leave much behind. I have a lot more here that I like. If that wasn't the case, then I wouldn't even bother with something like Student Council, or Shizune and Misha. I would be hard pressed to care about anything, if this school was how I imagined it would be. So even this feeling of a daily routine makes me glad, in a way. I dread the amount of work that's going to hit me in Student Council after school, enough to want to consider stepping out on my duties, just this once. Yet it's nice to feel like there is something I can do. Shizune drops a stack of attendance sheets next to me. .png) SHIZUNE: "[Thanks again for helping out.]" MISHA: "Thanks again, Hicchan~!" Sure is a lot of work, though. I had to skip out on sign language class again, but now I'm at a level where I can understand most of Shizune and Misha's conversations with each other, so I'm not too bothered by it. Shizune still doesn't know that, though. I'm determined to keep things that way until I'm very sure of my skills. Perhaps it's a little childish of me. SHIZUNE: "[Tanabata is in less than five days, but they're only going to start building the stalls tomorrow.]" MISHA: "Hicchan, we might have to help out with building stalls again starting tomorrow." HISAO: "Why? What was the point of taking them apart then? That took days, didn't it?" MISHA: "Yup! That's right~! Even though Hicchan wasn't there for it~." HISAO: "I would have helped out if you asked." SHIZUNE: "[It wouldn't have made sense to bore you with cleanup duty after you enjoyed the festival so much.]" MISHA: "It wouldn't have made sense to bore you with making you clean up right after the festival, it would have ruined the fun." SHIZUNE: "[Besides...]" MISHA: "Ahahaha~! Hicchan is lazy anyway, you would have tried to run away again~! Shicchan doesn't like playing foxhound." HISAO: "That stings." Shizune covers her mouth with her hand and starts shaking. It takes me a second to realize she's laughing, mostly because she's doing so completely soundlessly. It's a little strange to see, but more or less the same good-spirited kind as Misha's, without being eardrum-piercing. MISHA: "Hm~, that's a good question, though, Hicchan." HISAO: "Huh?" MISHA: "Stalls~!" SHIZUNE: "[It's a storage issue. The school doesn't have anywhere to store so many stalls, since each one is pretty large. They won't pay for outside storage either, so this is what they decided on. It's inefficient, but cheaper.]" MISHA: "Because~! the school doesn't have anywhere to store that many stalls, Hicchan." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Ah, yeah yeah~, right, they do, but they don't want to pay~! Sorry, Shicchan~..." SHIZUNE: "[It's because of the previous generation.]” .png) SHIZUNE: "[The leadership decided that outside storage costs had risen too much, and the Student Council before us was too weak-willed to tell them that it's stupid to have to build and disassemble sixty stalls twice every year.] …!” MISHA: "Okay~!!" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hicchan, let's eat something~! It feels like we've been working all day~..." HISAO: "We have. Now that I think about it, I am hungry. I would have had lunch, but it was really crowded today for some reason, so I decided it wasn't worth the trouble." MISHA: "Ahahaha~! It was like that today because they had some especially interesting things for sale on the side." HISAO: "Like what? No, don't tell me. I guess it doesn't matter, since I won't be able to eat them anyway." Shizune looks oddly pleased with herself. I wonder what the context of that could be. SHIZUNE: "[I prepared ahead of time for this.]" Beaming with self-satisfaction, she produces a wide assortment of food from her bag. I can immediately see that ninety percent of it or more was taken from the lunch room. There's a lot, as well. Isn't there a limit on how much a person can buy? That means these gains are definitely ill-gotten. (Silence) HISAO: "The veal cutlet bread is always sold out in the first minute of lunch. I'm impressed you managed to obtain one. Thank you." I reach for it quickly, but Shizune immediately makes a grab for it as well. Katawa Shoujo OST - Everyday Fantasy Her hand goes slack for a second when it touches mine, but she immediately pushes forth with redoubled effort, that blazing, competitive spirit flashing dangerously in her eyes. Her fingers pry at mine, searching for an opening. I don't budge an inch, prepared to fight for this bread with my life. I might never have another chance to eat this. am fully aware that if we continue like this, we could crush the bread, greatly reducing its edibility. HISAO: "Misha... Tell her that unless she lets go, the bread is going to be crushed." MISHA: "Hmmmmm? Why can't you do it yourself?" I'm startled she can so nonchalantly let slip that I could communicate with Shizune just fine if I wanted to. I almost consider the possibility it was intentional, but I'm sure she was just distracted trying to tear the wrapper off a juice box straw. HISAO: "Isn't it obvious? I can't let go of the bread." MISHA: "I can't tell Shicchan that, then." She puts her palms up to the sky and shrugs, a wide grin on her face. HISAO: "Why not?" MISHA: "Because~! You have a stake in this, so I can't trust you~! If Shicchan wants to reply, she has to let go of the bread, and then you win. Who knows, who knows, maybe that's what you want, Hicchan? It wouldn't be fair, so I'm going to be neutral! Like Switzerland~!" HISAO: "Switzerland?" MISHA: "Do you know about Switzerland?" HISAO: "Of course I do... it's neutral, they're neutral." Shizune stares at me cockily, the tip of her tongue sticking out slightly from between her teeth as she continues to tug firmly at the veal cutlet bread between us. Suddenly, she lets go and holds her hands up, palms facing outwards. The universal gesture of peace. SHIZUNE: "[This seems like a poor way to settle this, doesn't it? And we might crush the bread.]" She glares, and her passive expression quickly plummets into a disapproving grimace. SHIZUNE: "...!" MISHA: "Hicchan! Drop the bread! We are negotiating now!" I drop the bread reluctantly. Misha's hand darts in from the side, her fingers drumming across the table as it makes its way over. MISHA: "Ah~! Haha~! Don't mind me, I don't even really like veal. I'll just take this sandwich right here~! And something to drink, too..." Picking them up cautiously, she immediately retreats. She has the right idea. I could just pick something else, there are lots of delicious things here. The chicken katsudon bread is also a popular seller, ranking high in taste and demand. But I've already eaten one before. SHIZUNE: "[You're so immature, Hisao. This wouldn't be a problem if you would pick something else. The chicken katsudon bread is delicious.]" MISHA: "You're so immature, Hicchan. Why don't you pick the chicken katsudon bread instead? It's delicious~!" HISAO: "But I have already eaten that." SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Hicchan~! Why are you so obsessed with eating the veal cutlet bread, spe—ci—fi—cal—ly?" HISAO: "It's hard to get normally. Rare things are more delicious." SHIZUNE: "[You are acting like a child.]" MISHA: "You're acting like a kid, Hicchan." HISAO: "Why don't you eat the chicken bread?" SHIZUNE: "[That's not important.]" Turning bright red, she smiles cunningly and continues. (Silence) .png) SHIZUNE: “[There is no reasoning with you. So it looks like there is only one way to settle this: we are going to play for it.]" MISHA: "That doesn't matter: we'll play for it instead~!" Somehow, I expected this. It's the logical conclusion. Shizune has been studying for a long time, pretty much continuously up until now. With our finals over, I guess that surplus energy has to go somewhere. HISAO: "Play what?" SHIZUNE: "[The oldest game known to man, upon which the fate of nations has been known to rest: Rock, Paper, Scissors.]" MISHA: "We'll play Rock, Paper, Scissors.” Katawa Shoujo OST - The Student Council (Shizune’s Theme) MISHA: "Really? That sounds so serious, Shicchan..." There is no humor in her expression, she is dead set on this. HISAO: "Okay, okay." She draws her hand back, and I mirror her. HISAO: "Go!" We both put out rock. A draw. I had thought I had the perfect plan. Rock is unbeatable. Shizune frowns, deeply upset by this unexpected turn of events. Not as planned? SHIZUNE: “[Again!]” Two papers. HISAO: "drat." SHIZUNE: “[Again!!]" We both throw out two rocks again, but a third hand is among us representing scissors. MISHA: "This looks like fun, can I play? Hahahaha~!" SHIZUNE: "[... ... ...]" MISHA: "It's a duel, Shicchan?" SHIZUNE: "..." MISHA: "Eh~, dueling conduct? Hm~... You're right, you're right~! I really don't know..." SHIZUNE: "..." The faster she signs, the harder it is to follow. In fact, it looks like even Misha is having trouble keeping up. HISAO: "What's she talking about?" SHIZUNE: “[One more time!]" We tie again. Every time, Shizune demands a rematch, eventually skipping that step altogether and throwing rock, paper, or scissors out with increasingly reckless abandon. Even playing completely randomly, we continue to tie. This is a mathematical longshot. Misha hovers above us, watching it all and laughing each time we draw. (Silence) After sixteen rounds, Shizune pushes her chair away from the table and stands up. SHIZUNE: "...!" MISHA: "Enough of this, Hicchan~! I see what I have been doing wrong, this will all be over in the next round, so brace yourself, okay~? Okay~! I have studied your thought processes and~ I see how you play. I'm anticipating your next move and will combat it expertly." This is all news to me, as I can't remember what we are doing this over. Shizune grins confidently, a look of fearless daring on her face. Her cool eyes flash with pure competitive spirit as she draws her hand back, goading me wordlessly to do the same. Her form is amazing, like a professional bowler or something, just to throw a hand motion. Two papers. Katawa Shoujo OST - Katawa Shoujo OST - Generic Happy Music .png) Shizune's body immediately goes slack, and she rubs her temples with a look of exasperation on her face as she lets out a sigh so long it sounds like a tire deflating. I realize I've gotten a lot hungrier in the time we've been doing this. HISAO: "We can just split it." I break the bread in half and offer one half of it to Shizune. She takes it. SHIZUNE: “[Thank you.]" She looks at the bread in her hand, studying it. SHIZUNE: “[But this feels hollow, somehow.]" Regardless of how she feels, she still eats it. All of a sudden, I see Misha observing the scene out of the corner of my eye. MISHA: "Hicchan~... That was very romantic, I think." HISAO: "Oh, come on." MISHA: "Wahahahahaha~!" She laughs and takes a bite of her second sandwich. (Silence) We eat in silence for a while, Shizune and I managing to avoid any other contests. And then, we go back to work. Katawa Shoujo OST - Afternoon .png) As I finish up the day's usual filing, I think to myself that this might be Shizune's way of trying to start this week on a high note. After all, tomorrow is when the real work will begin, and with her hands literally full building stalls, she won't be able to “talk” very much. It will likely be pretty dull and tiring, like it was the first time around. I'm appreciative of her effort, in that case. It's nice to have days like this, as a way of enjoying yourself before the days ahead. I think that was her idea as well. …I also remember that I still have to get rid of Kenji's package. The drat thing is bulky, and somehow I've never been able to track him down since I picked it up. After Student Council is adjourned for the day, I walk towards the vending machines to look for something to drink, parting from Shizune and Misha. It's a short trip, but after even just a few seconds I start to get the feeling I'm not alone. A pair of hands cover my eyes. MISHA: "Guess who~!" HISAO: "Shizune?" MISHA: "Wahahaha~! It's me, Hicchan~!" HISAO: "Yeah, I know." .png) MISHA: "Then why did you say it was Shicchan~? It's okay to be wrong sometimes, Hicchan~! You're too proud. Anyway~, after Student Council, you don't usually have any plans, right~? So, you're just going to go straight to your dorm?" HISAO: "Where else would I go?" MISHA: "Okay, that's great~! That's great, Hicchan~! I wanted to talk to you today, so this works out perfectly!" Two high school students, alone after classes in a quiet, empty building. As the sun dyes the sky a romantic amber color, the cute girl says that she wants to talk. What a secretive and appealing situation, my imagination is buzzing. It's likely not going to be anywhere near as exciting as I am making it out to be, but it's fun to play it up that way. The popping sound of my canned coffee opening destroys any chance of maintaining such a cheesy mood, sounding louder than I'd have ever thought imaginable, amplified by the context of the situation. I sigh in disappointment and relief. HISAO: "So, what is it?" MISHA: "Hm? Oh! Actually~... I'm a little behind in some of my classes, and if I don't catch up, it could be a problem~! I can't put it off any longer. My teachers say that I have to really start taking things seriously, so I should listen, especially~ because this is the third time. Sorry~! I'm sorry, Hicchan." HISAO: "Why are you apologizing?" .png) MISHA: "I won't be able to help you or Shicchan with Student Council for a few days~. It'll only be for two or three days, really! I'll definitely try and come back as soon as possible! But~..." I can't say I'm happy about this. It's supposed to be getting really busy this week too, isn't it? That's some unfortunate timing. For a second I want to ask if maybe Shizune could pull some strings to get her out of it. But Misha looks so genuinely apologetic about it. It would be pretty dickish of me to say something like that. Besides, if she says it's something that can't be put off any longer, I'm inclined to believe her, considering how surprisingly serious she can be with student council duties. HISAO: "Yeah, I see. It's okay. You managed with just Shizune and yourself last year, didn't you? So I'm sure I'll be able to as well. Don't worry about it." MISHA: "Really? Thank you, Hicchan~! Really~! Yay yay~! I didn't know Hicchan would take it so well~! I thought you would be worried, with how there's going to be so~ much work, with Tanabata coming up and everything~!" drat, she knows me oddly well. MISHA: "...But~! Hicchan is so composed~! I'm glad~..." HISAO: "Haha, yeah. You're sort of right, I was thinking about it, but it's not that big a deal. I'm not going to freak out over that. It's going to be a little annoying passing that pad back and forth to talk to Shizune, though." MISHA: "Hicchan, just tell Shicchan that you can use sign language too! I don't understand why you won't." HISAO: "Not yet. I can understand most things already, but I want to be really sure. Heh, actually, I wouldn't mind. The secrecy is killing me too, and it would be nice to be able to talk to her in a real conversation. Don't worry, I'm going to have to tell her eventually. I want to. Actually, I'm trying to think of a good opportunity for it." MISHA: "That won't be a problem, Hicchan~!" HISAO: "Why not?" (Sudden Silence) .png) MISHA: "Well~, because I... kind of... told Shicchan that you could understand her. She was worried about the same thing, that you wouldn't be able to understand each other~! So~! I was worried, but it worked out fine in the end after all~! Hahaha?" I lose it. Katawa Shoujo OST - Hokabi HISAO: "AAAAAAAAAAHHH!! Do you know how stupid I look now? I sat there for like half the drat day acting like I couldn't read sign language, and are you seriously telling me that she knew the whole time I could? She was probably thinking, “this guy is a complete jackass, pretending he can't understand me.” I just made a total rear end of myself. How could you let me do this?!" Misha frowns, seeming lost for words on realizing that I'm taking this differently than she might have expected. She doesn't speak again until after seeing that I've calmed down. MISHA: "...But, Hicchan, I think this is definitely for the best~!" She says without batting an eye, having waited patiently through my panic to say it. The cheerful delivery of her words makes it seem like she sliced out the time between when she dropped the bomb on me and now. It's pretty funny, in a way. HISAO: "You have such a one track mind, you know that?" MISHA: "Yes~!" The damage is done. If Misha can believe that things will work out with such unflinching surety, then maybe it's worth giving it a chance. And if things don't work out, I'll run as fast as I possibly can... To try and make it up to me anyway just in case, she offers to buy me another drink from the vending machine. It's a very small token of apology, but I suppose it's the thought that counts, and her thoughts are sincere. Plus it's a free drink, so I accept.
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Oct 13, 2021 16:32
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Ibblebibble posted:Maybe I'm missing the point of the discussion, but personally I'm less interested in if the behaviour is problematic or not and more interested in how it's going to change and lead to new developments. I can forgive behaviour that wouldn't fly IRL in fiction if it actually goes somewhere interesting. I agree with this statement because there are a lot of stories that I enjoy that have characters start out doing things I find personally unappealing or unacceptable and then growing and learning from their behavior. Hisao is actually a decent example of this on the Emi route where Misha gives him the out rather than the LP canon one that Falconier showed us. He pushed boundaries and crossed lines, and then apologized and try to learn from his mistakes. While the path the LP covered for Emi is still a solid story, the option where Hisao makes more mistakes is still just as valid a story. That being said, there are some stories that just aren't meant for certain readers. I personally believe that if any story contains a topic or character that is a trigger for past trauma, then the reader should probably step back. Shizune appears to be a more base-breaking character than our other romantic options so far, so I can understand if people would feel the need to take a break from the LP until we complete her route. As for me, I'm a bit curious as to whether people would have had different reactions to Shizune if the package was actually Hisao's instead of Kenji's. If it was a care package from his parents, would he have been more willing to allow Shizune to open it? If he did, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, or at least it would be a bit less volatile.
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Oct 13, 2021 16:39
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Update posted while I was replying... I'll read it afterward, but I do have a couple of things to say. Don't want to hijack the thread, but this is a very, very important issue for me.Explopyro posted:(Also, Nidoking, while you may have good reasons for not wanting to use terms like sexual assault or sexual abuse, or even rape, and I'm not sure you either need or want to hear this from me, I want to give you explicit permission to use them. This isn't a matter of permission. It's a matter of details I haven't shared and really don't want to have to. It's just a very complicated situation that I'd rather not need to think about. Zurai posted:When Hisao tells her "No!" about the box, she looks mulish for a bit, sure, but she doesn't go after it anymore. What update are you people reading? Because the one I read says this, and since nobody seems to notice it, I'll add a bit of emphasis: Falconier111 posted:
The sequence of events described here has Hisao saying "No!", and then in the following narrative, Shizune is still making moves as if to grab the box until Hisao nearly has to physically interpose himself between her and the box. In what way is this "when Hisao says no" that she's stopping? That is not a definition of "when" that I'm familiar with. In the English I know, it implies immediacy or concurrence. It does not mean "some time afterward, with further related events taking place between". As far as I'm concerned, posts like yours have no validity because you're not using the actual story to make your judgments. Ibblebibble posted:Maybe I'm missing the point of the discussion, but personally I'm less interested in if the behaviour is problematic or not and more interested in how it's going to change and lead to new developments. I can forgive behaviour that wouldn't fly IRL in fiction if it actually goes somewhere interesting. These are not mutually exclusive. If nobody ever did anything I don't agree with in fiction, there would be no conflict. At the same time, I can form opinions of people and the things they do, and given a forum to discuss those opinions, I might. The character may do something redemptive in the end, and I really hope so. But that doesn't excuse what they've done, and I don't think I need to say "Shizune never did anything wrong" even if my final opinion turns out to be "Shizune and Hisao are a healthy couple after all is said and done." Seeing characters learn from their mistakes and grow is fine, and certainly requires them to make those mistakes to begin with. The bigger the mistake, probably the more satisfying the conclusion. But I'm not getting the impression (again, before reading the update above) that the story is even going to treat this incident as a mistake at all. EDITS: SimplyUnknown1 posted:As for me, I'm a bit curious as to whether people would have had different reactions to Shizune if the package was actually Hisao's instead of Kenji's. If it was a care package from his parents, would he have been more willing to allow Shizune to open it? If he did, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, or at least it would be a bit less volatile. If it were Hisao's package and everything else about the interaction were the same, no. No change. It's still a boundary and she still violated it. It does open the possibility that he could decide to let her open the package, and that does change things, because he has then invited her to cross the boundary. But that is not the scene written. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:you do realise shizune could not hear the verbal no, which is why the physical no signs do the trick ultimately Nidoking posted:I don't care how little you can hear and how little lip-reading ability you have, "No" is pretty drat clear, especially with the body language we see happening here. I have thoughts on the chess scene too, but it seems like this thread is becoming rather unfriendly territory for neurodiverse people taking issue with behaviors that could be taken as abusive, so I'll just let it go. Nidoking fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 16:51
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you do realise shizune could not hear the verbal no, which is why the physical no signs do the trick ultimately
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Oct 13, 2021 16:54
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I hate this. I'm not going to necessarily pass judgment on the behaviour in the current update, maybe it works for some people, but I, personally, hate this and find it insufferable.Nidoking posted:This isn't a matter of permission. It's a matter of details I haven't shared and really don't want to have to. It's just a very complicated situation that I'd rather not need to think about. I'm sorry if I overstepped; the last thing I want to do is make you uncomfortable. I was trying to give a framing that I personally found helpful, but I'll say no more on the subject unless you wish me to. Nidoking posted:These are not mutually exclusive. If nobody ever did anything I don't agree with in fiction, there would be no conflict. At the same time, I can form opinions of people and the things they do, and given a forum to discuss those opinions, I might. The character may do something redemptive in the end, and I really hope so. But that doesn't excuse what they've done, and I don't think I need to say "Shizune never did anything wrong" even if my final opinion turns out to be "Shizune and Hisao are a healthy couple after all is said and done." Seeing characters learn from their mistakes and grow is fine, and certainly requires them to make those mistakes to begin with. The bigger the mistake, probably the more satisfying the conclusion. But I'm not getting the impression (again, before reading the update above) that the story is even going to treat this incident as a mistake at all. I agree with this. Fiction is never just fiction, and saying "oh but it's a story" is not a get out of jail free card. The more relevant question is, does the narrative condone this behaviour? Is the narrative presenting problematic behaviour with the intent of commenting on it, or does it not realise what it's done? And if it is commenting, what exactly is it saying? Fiction is one of the big ways cultural norms are established and/or expressed, and as such I think it's important to interrogate it. This isn't the only way to engage with fiction, nor am I even saying it's the only important or useful way to do so, but I think it's important not to dismiss this angle.
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Oct 13, 2021 17:04
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I edited a few replies into my post above, but it's going to get out of hand if I keep doing that.Explopyro posted:I'm sorry if I overstepped; the last thing I want to do is make you uncomfortable. I was trying to give a framing that I personally found helpful, but I'll say no more on the subject unless you wish me to. Not an overstep. I was just trying to explain a situation I can't explain as best I could. I can give you more specifics if you'd like, but not in a public thread. If Twitter or Discord works for you, let me know.
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Oct 13, 2021 17:18
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Nidoking posted:What update are you people reading? Because the one I read says this, and since nobody seems to notice it, I'll add a bit of emphasis: No, we're very clearly not reading the same text, because once Hisao said "No," Shizune did not "mak[e] moves as if to grab the box." Let's re-read the sentence. quote:Eyes filled with excitement, she looks ready to fight me over this stupid package and I realize just how fast this could turn into a game of tug-of-war. Looks ready to. Looks ready. Not "is doing." Okay, maybe there's some action from her in the next sentence? quote:I am almost out of my seat now and waving my arms like an air traffic controller, before she finally settles down. Shizune pouts, not pleased with having her curiosity checked, and gets up to leave. Nope. The only action described is on Hisao's end. Nowhere did Shizune make any move on the box after Hisao told her "No." Also remember that Hisao isn't the best at judging motivations and is a proven unreliable narrator. Something something no validity because you're not using the actual story to make your judgements. Zurai fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 17:26
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I guess I just don't particularly care about whether or not an action is bad or not, just if they're going to do anything interesting with it.
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Oct 13, 2021 17:38
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Okay, let’s stop. I have more to say that I’ll edit into this post once I have a moment, but this discussion has moved past productive. I’d rather not have to ban Shizune discussion, but we’re on that track.
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Oct 13, 2021 17:39
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Nidoking posted:Not an overstep. I was just trying to explain a situation I can't explain as best I could. I can give you more specifics if you'd like, but not in a public thread. If Twitter or Discord works for you, let me know. Got it. I don't need to know anything, I'll just say that if you would actually like to have a conversation about this, I've gone and enabled PMs on here and you can contact me that way to arrange whatever. I have a Discord account in theory, but I'm not on there very frequently and am not the most familiar with using it. Falconier111 posted:Okay, let’s stop. I have more to say that I’ll edit into this post once I have a moment, but this discussion has moved past productive. I’d rather not have to ban Shizune discussion, but we’re on that track. Edit: sorry, crossposted with this. I'm good to drop it for now.
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Oct 13, 2021 17:43
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Moving on from the previous discussion, I definitely don't like how Shizune handled Hanako in this update. At the end of the previous update, I felt she did a good job of (relatively) gently luring Hanako in and engaging with her interests. In this one, though, she throws that out the window for ... no real narrative reason I can comprehend. It just comes off as, at best, extreme insensitivity, and at worst, malicious bullying. It doesn't really fit in with most of the rest of her characterization. Actually, now that I think about it... Hanako is associated with Lily pretty strongly. I wonder if this is some collateral damage from that feud? Not proposing this to excuse her actions here (or previously with the delinquent comment, which was and always has been uncalled for and hurtful), just wondering if that's meant to be her motivation. EDIT: Also, now that Hisao is able to somewhat understand Shizune without Misha's help, we see that she's a pretty unreliable translator, confirming what others said earlier in the thread. There's multiple instances here where Misha said something completely different from what Shizune signed. She is aware that Hisao knows some sign language now, so it's possible she's being less faithful because of it, but there's no way to tell for sure unless she admits it at some point. Also also, Hisao's blowup at the end is completely unwarranted. IMO, he's the one being an rear end in a top hat there. That's not the kind of secret you hold over someone who's supposed to be your friend. Zurai fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 18:29
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On a much lighter note while still discussing the story, the 17 ties in a row for rock paper scissors was amusing, as was Shizune's reaction to having the competition denied in that way. It's also nice to see Hisao struggling with the common problem of not wanting to "fail" at something (sign language, in this case), despite that being the best way to learn. He's being a doofus about it, he knows that he is being an idiot about it, and it'll be neat to see how the two interact once they can talk directly without Misha as a filter. The fear of failure is something that has been a major issue for me throughout my life. Why do a thing if you're not going to be perfect, right? Why get into a hobby if you're not a master immediately? I've been trying to work through it, but as I write this, I have a half-dozen hobbies that I have invested multiple hundreds of dollars in that are sitting around waiting for more time investment that I don't want to put in because I'm not that good at it. The one thing that I think has helped me get around that mindset has been cooking, I think. I'm free to make just about anything I want to make, and if it's bad, I just don't share it. It's not going to last beyond a few meals anyway, so failure is relatively consequence-free. Now if I could just actually apply that lesson to literally anything else important in my life, that'd be a huge help.
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Oct 13, 2021 18:38
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I've been trying to put together some words on my thoughts about the route, but I'll shelve that for now since it's a bit of a heated subject. But, two cents on a topic that is close to things I have dealt with:Zurai posted:Also also, Hisao's blowup at the end is completely unwarranted. IMO, he's the one being an rear end in a top hat there. That's not the kind of secret you hold over someone who's supposed to be your friend. I really can't agree with this at all. At its core, Hisao decided to try and learn sign language, confided in Misha about this and asked for her help finding out how to learn it (she did help with this) and then specifically asked her to not tell Shizune as he wanted it to be a cool surprise, on top of wanting to practice to a level he wouldn't feel like a fool in front of Shizune. The reasons for the latter half of that are myriad and complicated and something Hisao probably doesn't totally understand himself, but the point is that he made it clear he wanted to share the fact he had learned sign language to communicate with Shizune himself. And Misha, with no warning or consultation, completely betrays that trust Hisao had put in her. Hell, she only tells him after the fact of Hisao going through that entire scene with Shizune knowing he can understand her now and him being in the dark. Regardless of whether it's a good or bad "secret" to keep (I don't think it's great to do, but I empathize with the insecurity Hisao is feeling that the writer is trying to convey), it's still an incredibly hosed up thing to do whether or not Misha had the good intentions at heart that she expressed. Frankly, I'm more put off by the fact that Hisao seemed to recover so fast from what Misha did, although that could simply be text format being a poor conveyance of time passing I would not have recovered nearly as quickly and probably reacted even more poorly, to be quiet honest. Out of this entire route so far, this is the one part I would say is just genuinely hosed up and crosses a pretty clear line.
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Oct 13, 2021 19:01
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No more discussion for now, please. I need to rehaul where the thread is going before we get cracking again.
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Oct 13, 2021 19:04
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