|
God specific corruption seems like a thing.
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 03:01 |
|
|
I've always liked Chaos, the only thing is that you have to balance them always being a threat without actually winning, which is why the End Times was such a gently caress up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:05
|
|
|
kujeger posted:up until end times, weren't chaos kind of being beaten back in warhammer fantasy? Yes, which was one of the best parts of the Post-Storm of Chaos setting. Chaos's utter inability to advance or improve has rendered it increasingly ineffective against the Empire's combination of developing technology, improved infrastructure and better diplomatic alliances. When Archaon marshaled a vast host of Chaos, Elves Men and Dwarfs united in a desperate alliance to save the world. And Chaos bounced off of it, barely making it past Kislev. And now, the forces of Order are sitting around asking "What Now?" Chaos was still a threat this time, though barely, but if the pattern continues the next Everchosen is going to find machine gun nests and howitzer artillery despite still leading an army of guys in plate armor and naked daemons. Can the Empire hang together without Chaos being an actual threat? Will the alliances with the Elves and Dwarfs stay strong when it's not needed to save the world? And it all led into setting up the Undead as the next big bad rather than Chaos. And (although I know Warhammer Fantasy proper would never visit the topic), what better antagonist for a coming World War 1 era Empire, than one who can animate the dying fields?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:08
|
|
|
kujeger posted:up until end times, weren't chaos kind of being beaten back in warhammer fantasy? Kind of? There were, prior to the End Times, four main huge in-setting Chaos invasions.
There's some in-setting fluff about how even if Chaos is defeated, the Chaos Wastes advance a little farther south every time, but generally the history of Chaos is "they form a big horde and march south until they get broken at Praag in Kislev or Middenheim". The Old World wasn't getting beaten by Chaos but they also weren't exactly pushing Chaos towards ultimate extinction, either, it was more of a stasis thing. Theoretically the Empire's advancing technology might have given them more and more of an edge, but Chaos cultists could probably figure out how to use machine guns just as well as Sigmarites, so you might just end up with a WWI trench nightmare in the north or something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:If people want to know more about the mythical Sun Wukong (The Monkey King) then this should help: this is a good summary too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAWxoKUKOaA
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
My first playthrough? Yamcha, of course
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:41
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:God specific corruption seems like a thing. I noticed that, too. I wonder how it'll be mechanically different than regular Chaos Undivided corruption, which is still present. Hopefully they'll have unique appearances on the map! Khorne: Red spikes, blood and lava Nurgle: Green goo, buzzing flies Tzeentch: Blue and purple tentacles. Eyes Slaanesh: I don't know, pink fleshy masses? Gaudy colors? It's hard to say how a region owned by Slaanesh changes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:47
|
|
|
William Bear posted:I noticed that, too. I wonder how it'll be mechanically different than regular Chaos Undivided corruption, which is still present.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
Kanos posted:so you might just end up with a WWI trench nightmare in the north or something. i want this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Kind of? There were, prior to the End Times, four main huge in-setting Chaos invasions. This isn't completely accurate just in that there have been significantly more than just four huge Chaos invasions, Notably Archaeon was the *thirteenth* Everchosen, though that's just more evidence that it's been more or less a stalemate on the grand level for a while. There's even been some massive Chaos invasions that were led by champions of specific gods that weren't Everchosen, including my favorite that I hope make it into the game someday, Tamurkhan, because who doesn't love a giant evil body-snatching maggot? Honestly, given that there seems to have been a Chaos invasion of The Empire every couple hundred years or so, plus invasions by Greenskins from the South, armies of Undead, it's amazing that the Empire has managed to build anything of note at all without being at 40k levels of "There is only war"
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
kujeger posted:up until end times, weren't chaos kind of being beaten back in warhammer fantasy? Yes, Chaos was actually not very successful outside of its few Northern invasions and occasional incursions into Ulthuan backing the Dark Elves. It's also why the Storm of Chaos event ended up being such a joke: Chaos got top billing as this endgame threat, but lost every battle and came off as clownish buffoons maggooing their way past Kislev into Middenheim, only because the clear writer favoritism, and the funniest poo poo is still when Grimgor loving sucker punches Archeaon and says "He's da Best at Wot he Duz!" Before laughing in Archaeon's face and loving back off to the Badlands It's why End Times was so loving stupid: it was just GW doing Storm of Chaos without any pesky fan input. The Skaven suddenly stop infighting and end the Lizardmen, most of the human kingdoms, and Dawi by themselves, Chaos hordes that couldn't beat loving Middenheim suddenly defeat the massive combined forces of Order and Undeath, and the Elves all get utterly shafted along with Tomb Kings and Brettonia. Warhammer fantasy in stark contrast to 40k was in ways about the theme about while things are dark, the world can get better, and had the grim optimism throughout it's run until GW decided to just blow up the world to sell new model lines. As someone who grew up reading High Elf lore in particular, the very idea that all the Phoenix Kings were imposters and loving Dr. Doom of the Dark Elves is actually the rightful king, despite being still evil as gently caress, was particularly galling and made me stop caring about the setting at all, until TW came out. I also agree with the poster who said the Undead were far more of a threat to the Empire, as the Vampire Counts were way more successful in their invasions than Chaos ever was. Even the Skaven and the Dark Elves were more of an ever present threat than the disorganized Norscan Chaos Hordes for gently caress sake TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
Arghy is a huge Endtimes fan, ask him if you guys need any info
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:Yes, Chaos was actually not very successful outside of its few Northern invasions and occasional incursions into Ulthuan backing the Dark Elves. It's also why the Storm of Chaos event ended up being such a joke: Chaos got top billing as this endgame threat, but lost every battle and came off as clownish buffoons maggooing their way past Kislev into Middenheim, only because the clear writer favoritism, and the funniest poo poo is still when Grimgor loving sucker punches Archeaon and says "He's da Best at Wot he Duz!" Before laughing in Archaeon's face and loving back off to the Badlands The subsequent two editions and decade of removing everything remotely interesting about chaos is further proof that they’re the Mary Sue faction
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:54
|
|
|
Let's get into a real question. How many of my fellow skaven lovers also had/have pet rats?
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 17:57
|
|
|
Chaos had the dual problems of being a mechanically bad army that didn't sell terribly well but also being a setting fixture that had to be addressed consistently. So as Edgar said.Edgar Allen Ho posted:The writers loved chaos so much that they had Grimgor punk Archaon, yep, no two decades of nerd telephone here
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
1st_Panzer_Div. posted:Let's get into a real question. How many of my fellow skaven lovers also had/have pet rats? And how many have they gone through since the release of TWW1
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:10
|
|
|
1st_Panzer_Div. posted:Let's get into a real question. How many of my fellow skaven lovers also had/have pet rats? Skaven is my favorite faction to play and I had two wonderful pet rats growing up! For the Horned Rat! https://i.imgur.com/s2i148R.mp4
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
Once again, there is only one faction GW loves and thats Space Marines
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:Once again, there is only one faction GW loves and thats Space Marines But only the right sorts of Space Marines, those other ones well, they're okay we guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Chaos had the dual problems of being a mechanically bad army that didn't sell terribly well but also being a setting fixture that had to be addressed consistently. So as Edgar said. What made Chaos bad in WHFB? On paper, their units seemed nasty. Were there rules that offset that?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:What made Chaos bad in WHFB? On paper, their units seemed nasty. Were there rules that offset that? I'm pretty sure they had to be summoned in, and could be unsummoned due to leadership damage, so you didn't even get all your army on the field at the start, some of them might never arrive, and those that do could leave.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
As an Animosity roller, I can relate 
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:I'm pretty sure they had to be summoned in, and could be unsummoned due to leadership damage, so you didn't even get all your army on the field at the start, some of them might never arrive, and those that do could leave. From the few present-day WHFB videos I've seen, I'm led to believe it was Daemons and Beastmen who were trash. Warriors from what I understand were actually pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
Blooming Brilliant posted:From the few present-day WHFB videos I've seen, I'm led to believe it was Daemons and Beastmen who were trash. Warriors from what I understand were actually pretty good. Yeah I was specifically talking about Demons because they're what's about to be relevant in WH3 and generally when Chaos is meant to be getting all the focus it's the demons not the warriors who start "moving and shaking". The Chaos Warriors themselves could be a lot more interesting if they ever really worked on how different Chaos Gods would be worshipped, but that's the sort of thing that requires time effort and care, as well as multiple rulesets, something which can only go to Space Marines. But in the tabletop from what I know yeah, Chaos Warriors got good statlines, got good abilities from worshipping the gods, got good magic, they just had pretty good everything. In comparison Beastmen were weak and Chaos Demons had ability fuckery as I detailed with the summoning and desummoning poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
Serephina posted:Just out of curiosity, how does a chaos god of order work exactly? Those are literally opposite terms in the English language. Units facing inwards on a wall have to deal with min range and LoS, it's absurdly buggy unless they're targeting something far away. Combat takes long because you often only have 4 models fighting at a time that's why the towers are better than ladders because they dump far more models unto the wall. Depending on the map keeping a mobile reserve in the middle if you wanna contest the walls helps but an easy way is to give them the walls and shoot them as they loiter on the walls then funnel them in choke points. This doesn't work to well with some races, dawi for example you wanna keep those towers firing because you're killing power is weak. Every race has a preferred way of defending sieges. The gatehouse itself will never be destroyed but if it is also acting as a tower like in some maps, destroying it will stop it from shooting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:The writers loved chaos so much that they had Grimgor punk Archaon, yep, no two decades of nerd telephone here I honestly just think they started writing Chaos as the Unstoppable Big Bad because it's lazy and really easy tbh, not because of favoritism
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:What made Chaos bad in WHFB? On paper, their units seemed nasty. Were there rules that offset that? Chaos Warriors were slow heavy infantry. While they were the best core infantry, they were also expensive. And it was not very hard to beat them. Any war machine was killing chaos warriors about as effectively as skavenslaves, since a S6 hit kills T4 warriors on a 2+, same as T2 wimps, and it was easy to get S8-10 templates. And even if you dropped 300 points on a unit of 20 chaos warriors, it could still be tarpit the entire game by a mob of chaff, or beaten in melee by swordmasters, or shot apart by gunners, or hit by a save-or-die spell. And sure, you could bring your 40ppm Chaos Knights with a 1+ save and an actually good movement speed. But they still have all the same weaknesses
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
Southpaugh posted:Nah Cathay will have its shady underbelly just like everyone else in Hams. There will probably be some kind of theme of stagnation and decline to go along with the warring egos of the dragon emperors kids. No they won't, because a big part of the point of Cathay is to bring in Chinese players and market share, and alluding to a shady underbelly in any significant way that might encourage reconsidering the dominant regime is a good way for the censors to look at you funny. There will be no downside to 5000 years of harmonious draconic stewardship. For gently caress's sake the initial press release even tacitly acknowledges the literal nonsense that is 5000 years of Chinese history. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Oct 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
chaos is the stereotypical Great Enemy To Western Civilization. they're irrationally violent, they're treacherous and have conspirators, they're gross, and they're degenerate, and their gods are all satanic and evil. scary hordes of death vikings. very aesthetically loaded , also somewhat orientalzed. the solution is to maintain the martial virtues, the people that can not/do not are liable to grow tentacles and become so dumb and goddamn stupid, eventually joining the rest of the political cartoon caricatures in the north to plot to destroy the West. trying to make sense of them without recognizing that they're plot devices pulled out of the larger Western meta mythology is futile cuz they basically make no sense at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
As someone who played Chaos waaay back in the day because they looked like the cover to a heavy metal album, yeah they weren't that great. In fact a lot of the evil armies had a ton of drawbacks. I seem to remember orcs could suddenly stop following orders and charge their own units, and Skaven had to make rolls to avoid having their machines blow up and kill entire units. It's the kind of stuff that was both funny and appropriate in lore, but when you were fighting armies that didn't have any of that bullshit it really could kill the fun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 20:03
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:It really is remarkable how extremely high quality TEB is. Tech tree is kinda lame but I adore everything else (except for having to start so close to Grimgrog!!!) A well kitted Borgio will tie up Grimgor long enough that you can get a morale rout. Borgio with a duellist hero support will absolutely dumpster Grimgrog
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:What made Chaos bad in WHFB? On paper, their units seemed nasty. Were there rules that offset that? Chaos demons had a huge number of random elements that made them essentially a coin toss army where your units could just die because of a die roll before the game even started. Warriors were the only consistently updated army book and as a result the best ones mechanically. Unfortunately they but were still pretty boring to play (see the roster in TW1) and had the eye of the gods rule which both forced you to accept all challenges and had a chance to randomly kill your character as a "reward" for winning those challenges. Some of these issues were addressed by their very last army book but the damage had already been done for a lot of people's perception of them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:04
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:No they won't, because a big part of the point of Cathay is to bring in Chinese players and market share, and alluding to a shady underbelly in any significant way that might encourage reconsidering the dominant regime is a good way for the censors to look at you funny. I’m not sure this is the case. Games based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where the corrupt Chinese government is challenged by religious revolt and overthrown from within, then torn apart by civil war with morally ambiguous factions, are obviously huge in China. And palace intrigue dramas set in decadent dynastic historical settings are the most popular tv genre in the PRC. Censorship is a thing, but it’s going to be based on the arbitrary whims of some random low-level bureaucrat, not because ersatz Imperial China isn’t portrayed as flawless. Of course, who knows what CA/GW think, and they may have decided that flawless Cathay is the best way to appeal to Chinese consumers, but I doubt they’ve done a ton of market research.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:20
|
|
|
If it wasn't obvious before, Ogres are pretty much confirmed as the preorder race
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
Yeah I imagine that the PRC has little interest in defending Imperial China, in fact I think their official histories blame the Qing just as much as the west for the Century of Humiliation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:If it wasn't obvious before, Ogres are pretty much confirmed as the preorder race I don’t think so. They could be a non playable placeholder faction, for example.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:34
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:If it wasn't obvious before, Ogres are pretty much confirmed as the preorder race I think they said the preorder race hasn't yet been seen which kind of rules Ogres out, but no doubt they're in the game regardless
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:37
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:No they won't, because a big part of the point of Cathay is to bring in Chinese players and market share, and alluding to a shady underbelly in any significant way that might encourage reconsidering the dominant regime is a good way for the censors to look at you funny. No, no I don't think so.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:37
|
|
|
ThingOne posted:I can't wait to play Cathay Trail. "You have died of dysentery" will, I assume, be a euphemism for being disemboweled by a warpstone-addled Skaven assassin. Seriously, if CA misses the opportunity to sprinkle Oregon Trail references here I will have lost all faith in humanity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 03:01 |
|
|
Mantis42 posted:If it wasn't obvious before, Ogres are pretty much confirmed as the preorder race If they add a "homeland" mechanic where all of that is "Norscan homeland", Norsca could conquer Kraka Drak's Mountain climate and still have normal settlements there but could not conquer more southerly mountains.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 21:39
|
|