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site posted:i was with it right up until the last couple of pages where it felt like instead of being able to tie it off in a satisfying way ewing had to half-heartedly leave it open because the cates book is coming out immediately after this Because he knows Knull is coming
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Oct 13, 2021 20:28
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explains why his final message at the top of the letters section is, "gently caress it I'm done"
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Oct 13, 2021 20:37
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Hulk talk, personally I found Walter comes back to the story at the last minute to bring them home because of gamma the most anticlimactic part of all. You could have come up with a dozen different ways they could have gotten back, even a "the power was in you the whole time" and that would actually fit. Of course overall the issue was pretty great, but would have loved it if Ewing had left that a dangling thread and let someone else pick that up later at their choosing (which could happen since it's not really resolved, but still).
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Oct 13, 2021 20:51
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Ben remarking on how he's now collected the whole set made me snort with laughter.
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Oct 13, 2021 21:03
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Between today's Immortal Hulk conclusion, the appearance of a "yellow door" in Defenders that Strange identifies as "Tetragrammaton" (YHWH), and the way Ewing's Ultimates concluded, it feels like Ewing's got this slow-burn cosmology plot in mind that he's been working on piecemeal in whatever book he's on for the last few years.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:02
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I am loving the pure strain Kirby he's pouring into Taaia's dialogue. I think my sort of top-level disappointment with Immortal Hulk's ending is that it went for a very back-to-basics approach to resetting the table, which meant that the anticipation I had for what might happen in the conclusion was basically left dangling. The whole Green Door concept had made death and rebirth such a key part of the story that it never occurred to me that the Devil and Green Scar (and there was the early dangled thread of the Professor Hulk identity) were literally killed off, so I was waiting for the pay off and their return and instead we get both that back-to-basics paring down to just Bruce, Joe and the big guy, and the odd kind of Christian Trinity symbolism with Joe being powered from 'heaven', Hulk from 'Hell' and Bruce being the normal human in between. (That approach also kinda bled into Gamma Flight, with Rick basically now right back to square one and Skaar very loosely back on the table for the next time someone remembers him in about 5 years time) I'm also kind of feeling like it left some of the other themes earlier in the run feeling a bit less cohesive. Like the whole tangent into anti-military-inudstrial-capitalist politics was less about a broader theme and more just a pit stop.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:28
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Reading this week's ASM has got me thinking, have there been a lot of solo superheros who operate with what amounts to a pit crew? I know that Iron Man can resemble that in certain runs, and that's kind of what the original Canary/Oracle Birds of Prey was on some level, but it's a dynamic I don't think is used too often which is weird because it provides a pretty elegantly built-in supporting cast along with allowing you to have protagonists who don't have to be omnicompetent polymaths capable of doing literally everything
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Oct 13, 2021 23:35
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Batman, sometimes
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Oct 13, 2021 23:36
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Jiro posted:Ben remarking on how he's now collected the whole set made me snort with laughter. Yeah, big highlight for me too.
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Oct 13, 2021 23:54
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I guess I'm dumb because I don't get what happened in Hulk at all. In the end it all just turns out to be a test from God? There was no One Below All at all?
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Oct 14, 2021 00:11
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I want to get in on the ground floor here so: It sucks Spider-Man Beyond was cut short and they have to wrap it up in 19 issues just to let the next team come on, and I hear that new team is already getting cut from 43 to 39 issues, which sucks for them. Also it's a real monkey's paw that Donny Cates's Hulk cut Immortal Hulk short, but now IT is getting cut short just to allow Nathan Edmondson to come back for a cut-short run of The Alt-Right Hulk in 2023, which will get completely hosed over to allow Peter David to come back and have his run cut short
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Oct 14, 2021 00:14
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Edge & Christian posted:I want to get in on the ground floor here so: After which Greg Pak's World War Maestro is going to be lit, but also get cut short.
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Oct 14, 2021 00:19
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yeah i can't believe Immortal Hulk only got 60-odd issues to tell a story, that's barely enough time to establish a dark phoenix
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Oct 14, 2021 00:27
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Jiro posted:Also it's been a while but the whole possessed Hulk entity at the end of time/universe killing Franklin, was that ever concluded? No, unless I missed something, which sucks because this was the big dangling thread I was waiting to get righted. Ewing has an interest in the end of/beginning of cosmologies (see his current Defenders run for yet more) and it's weird that this was just left unattended. The reveal in this issue doesn't really resolve anything, because it just implies it's just God (capital G for TWAA, if I remember correctly he's supposed to be the absolute top-dog) biting his own head off. And he's doing it all because he's got/is a hulk? And because he does, we do? I don't know, I'm trying to give a generous reading there but it's not the most satisfying ending. It is absolutely gorgeous though.
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Oct 14, 2021 00:38
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Gaz-L posted:
Edge & Christian posted:I want to get in on the ground floor here so: Can you please explain to me the proper way to indicate "this story felt like it was cut off prematurely" that passes your arbitrary test for proper etiquette? Or do we have to dryly recount "just the facts" and never actually indicate our opinions or speculate? EDIT: To cut through the snark a little, this bugs me a lot because it feels like utterly contentless posting. It's just picking apart word choice without actually engaging in the underlying opinion and discussion in a way that feels very reminiscent of those people who feel like any review or opinion piece that doesn't say "in my opinion" to preface every single statement somehow means that what's being said is being presented as absolute fact. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 00:50
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I mean people assuming every run is cut short is a bit tedious. Sometimes writers don’t know how to end it or can’t pace well all the way through. It’s easy to accuse editorial but it could just be the writer
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Oct 14, 2021 01:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean people assuming every run is cut short is a bit tedious. Which is a fine argument to make! So make it! Not 'hurr runs ending early isn't a thing dumdum'. Or even just say you thought the book was paced well and why. Because it's equally tedious to have every idle bit of speculation about that jumped on as if it's breaking some code. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 01:13
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We knew how long Immortal Hulk was going to be years ago If the story feels a little rushed at the end, it's not because Ewing was being pressured to suddenly wrap up one of Marvel's best selling books.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:29
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"I bet this was cut short, ended early, interfered with by the editors" without any sort of support or elaboration is exactly as complex and well-supported argument as "I don't think it was." I suspect Al Ewing wrote the last six issues of Amazing Spider-Man, and Nick Spencer wrote the last six issues of Immortal Hulk. Prove me wrong, and don't just use empty snark! X-O posted:Hey, it's not like Ewing's ever been actually able to end a series on his own terms before. I haven't read the last few but maybe he's just not used to sticking a landing. And on a larger scale, nobody* is promised an eight year/eight season epic saga. Envision one if you want, but if your first 6-12-18 issues/episodes are all you're promised, maybe make sure they can stand on their own? This was something Priest and other writers talked about over twenty years ago, which was the absolute heyday of various writers who had visions of writing the next Sandman were lamenting on the Warren Ellis Forum and elsewhere how the loving philistine hacks at [Vertigo/Wildstorm/Marvel/etc] cut their book short after just X issues, and yes issues 6-8 were a confusing flashforward that seemed to have turned a lot of readers off, but if people just waited until year four where things really kicked into high gear and re-read that flashforward their minds would be loving blown, comics will break your heart kid, I can't believe my tenuous spinoff from the Authority didn't get to run longer than the Authority. There are absolutely books that are kneecapped by editorial fuckery, plans changing, scheduling snafus, etc. They're easy to find. There are also books whose resolutions you have a right to find unsatisfying without inventing causes for it. And there are also plenty of series that start with an idea for 3-5-10 years/seasons who never make it to the end, but that's an unfortunate reality of work-for-hire, not a shocking twist that you never see coming. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 01:53
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Hey, it's not like Ewing's ever been actually able to end a series on his own terms before. I haven't read the last few but maybe he's just not used to sticking a landing.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:54
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Edge & Christian posted:"I bet this was cut short, ended early, interfered with by the editors" without any sort of support or elaboration is exactly as complex and well-supported argument as "I don't think it was." By this logic I can't speculate about future stories because have I seen the scripts? I can't say anything about a writer or artist's intent, unless I ask them personally and get an answer. It's basically exactly what I said, you're saying that unless it's a dry recitation of content from the text, opinion, speculation, essentially any kind of discussion has no place. I'll also note that you made no effort whatsoever to answer a direct question I posed, which was to provide any kind of example of what you'd consider 'appropriate' discussion of a topic like that. Which I will infer means you don't have one, because to you there is no way to do so. Fundamentally, what I said was, "I feel like this story was cut short". You're free to disagree with that, sure, but you're not, you're acting like it's not even an opinion worth entertaining or engaging with, that I'm not allowed to express that feeling, which is what pisses me off Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 02:00
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OnimaruXLR posted:Reading this week's ASM has got me thinking, have there been a lot of solo superheros who operate with what amounts to a pit crew? I know that Iron Man can resemble that in certain runs, and that's kind of what the original Canary/Oracle Birds of Prey was on some level, but it's a dynamic I don't think is used too often which is weird because it provides a pretty elegantly built-in supporting cast along with allowing you to have protagonists who don't have to be omnicompetent polymaths capable of doing literally everything The Avengers used to have a support staff and maybe still do but I feel like it's been a while since they have been on screen. E: Although I guess that really isn't what you're asking; my reading comprehension sucks today. I guess, the Punisher, to have a valid answer. They always turn evil or are killed though.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:02
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We know the story wasn't cut short. We knew the book was ending with #50 last summer. The speculation isn't really engaging because we know that's not the problem with the story. e: Like if Ewing knew he was getting the exact amount of space that's on him for not wrapping things up satisfyingly (though personally I'm fine with this ending) Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 02:09
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Blockhouse posted:We know the story wasn't cut short. We knew the book was ending with #50 last summer. Except they've pulled this same thing when people were talking about the Spencer Spider-Man and I'm pretty sure the Hickman X-Men stuff. E: I'm also happy to actually discuss in more detail: There's several threads that are either dropped altogether or wrapped up rather abruptly that give the whole thing a sense of incompleteness or of there being something rushed or missing. The afore-mentioned flash-forward not really coming back despite being a big to-do in #25. The stuff with Sasquatch sputtering out with the hints of some malevolence behind his stealing of Samson's body just being dropped and used as a one-line excuse for how the FF can come save Banner and McGee? Plus the cramming in of the flashbacks to the Sterns/Banner family stuff. And yes, I also have a scepticism of these kind of jumbo sized final issues, because clearly there IS more story than could actually have fit into 50 normal sized comics, so on that level, ending on #50 is an artificially enforced limit. Now that may well be the creative team's choice, and given Bennett's recent actions, it's likely for the best but I was expressing my impression. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 02:12
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Gaz-L posted:By this logic I can't speculate about future stories because have I seen the scripts? I can't say anything about a writer or artist's intent, unless I ask them personally and get an answer. It's basically exactly what I said, you're saying that unless it's a dry recitation of content from the text, opinion, speculation, essentially any kind of discussion has no place. Immortal Hulk was a very popular book, both commercially and critically, for Marvel. It was revealed that it would be ending with issue 50 in June of 2020, the same month that Immortal Hulk #34 hit the stands. In the event that the book was cut short out of the control of Al Ewing, which seems impossible for the reasons above, there was still a long lead time to rework things to get to the intended end by the end of issue 50. Even if he somehow only found out that issue 50 was the final issue as a surprise -- that he was literally the last person to know that it was the final issue -- that final issue was over three times as long as a standard issue, giving Ewing even more room to end the book as he intended. If you want to say you found the ending badly paced, or unsatisfying, or with too many loose ends, or clashes with your personal conception of the Hulk, morality, forgiveness, gamma rays, Crackerjack Jackson, if you hate literal Deus Ex Machina, if you're annoyed that you have to read Defenders to see more Betty Banner, if you're wondering why so many characters' final arcs were shunted to a mini-series, if you thought the lettering for the One Above All didn't work, if you can't separate the art from artist w/r/t Joe Bennett, if you have strong feelings about Alex Ross covers, or were taken out of the moment by the Jobriath cameo, or think the way Bennett draws the Hulks' mouths or the Thing's face are off-putting, that Reed Richards was drawn too stocky, that oversized issues cost too much, there are a million things that are totally valid and fertile topics about the comic book published as Immortal Hulk #50. "I feel like this story is cut short", especially when that is frequently used as shorthand for dark intimations of editorial/corporate interference of the creator's pure intentions, is content-free. Books can be bad without being cut short. I don't think this book was bad, nor was it cut short. I think Al Ewing stuck the landing because he's being controlled by 5G from the Pfizer vaccine, which is the mark of the beast but also makes people write good endings.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:20
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Some great art this issue but I won't be sad to see Joe Bennett go.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:27
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i don't recall what Ewing's announcement was at the time, did he say he had plotted everything out to land exactly on issue 50 or that they were giving him 50 issues also since i was remined of it, criminal that the one above all wasn't kirby
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Oct 14, 2021 02:38
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The last paragraph aside, that was at least an attempt to ask for clarification, to discuss. That is literally what my issue was. It was the tone of the reaction. If you mean "Why do you think it was cut short/ended abruptly/was poorly paced" (all of which are similar enough phrases), JUST ASK ME. I've tried to explain in a few other posts when people have actually expressed dissenting opinions without being needlessly snarky and assholish. I'd also add to what I've already said by noting that the shunting of character arcs to Gamma Flight and Defenders to me is some small evidence that there was in fact more story than Ewing could fit into the 50 issue limit he or editorial had decided on last year. Yes, it's possible this was the plan from day one, or it's possible this was a compromise when all parties realised there was more than could comfortably fit even with the bumper sized final issue, and either of those still fits what we know from a behind-the-scenes perspective. But in either event, it still left me underwhelmed. I do disagree with the 'deus ex machina' description simply because the very name of the One Below All was a constant hint that the opposite was possibly going to come into play, so it's not fitting the classical definition because the god was always there in a sense as a part of events. I also noted that yes, it rubs against my conception of the Hulk to some degree as I'm someone who enjoys the Pak version a lot and there was so little reference to that aspect of the character over the run that it feels like a very clear absence. The shift to forgiveness for Sterns felt rote and somewhat unearned because among other things, the Sterns being forgiven is basically not the same guy who did the things he's being forgiven for. Now, yes, arguably the point is more that the mercy or forgiveness is more for the Hulk's sake than for his, but taking what had felt like an intensely personal conflict and resolving it by literal God telling the characters to kiss and make up was not satisfying to me, even if it's not a literal god from the machine. I also felt that the flashbacks in this issue felt tacked on to try and give that resolution more weight in much the same way as Star Wars Episode IX did: Make it an epic, arguably incestuous conflict across generations. And it fails for similar reasons. I'm also sceptical of oversized 'finale' issues in general. My opinion is that if you feel it necessary to do, you should probably just give it another issue or two to finish the story in normal sized issues. I've also seen Ewing stick the landing on books that ran much shorter, such as his Ultimates. Maybe that was a function of the shorter run allowing less expectation to build, but it makes the dangling threads, rushed arcs and so forth sting more here. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 02:40
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site posted:i don't recall what Ewing's announcement was at the time, did he say he had plotted everything out to land exactly on issue 50 or that they were giving him 50 issues The original 'announcement' was actually just Joe Bennett saying that Immortal Hulk was ending with #50 back in June 2020. A few months later Ewing did an interview where he said: quote:I've been pretty good about avoiding spoilers in terms of exactly when we finish. I've always promised that the solicitation for the last issue will tell you unequivocally that it's the last issue, and I plan to keep to that, if there isn't some official word before that. But things are definitely building to a crescendo - or even a series of crescendos. 2021 is going to be an incredibly significant year for the Green Goliath. Later quotes from this past summer: quote:"It's finally time to admit it - Immortal Hulk is reaching the end of the story we set out to tell. Issue #49 brings jade-jaws to the gates of the abyss and a final accounting of his life - in time for a last issue you'll have to experience to believe. quote:Immortal Hulk #50 is the climax of everything we've done in this book, an 80-page crescendo that spans over a century and contains the answers to some of the biggest questions of the run. This is how it all ends - and we think it'll be worth the wait. It's possible he's lying and is just a good company man, but Bennett was apparently telling the truth back in June 2020 when he said #50 was the last issue, and after that public statement Marvel published Immortal Hulk #34-50, including the triple-sized final issue. Also published after the announcement were the one-shots King in Black: Immortal Hulk and Immortal She-Hulk, the wraparound story in Immortal Hulk #0, and a five issue Gamma Flight series. Al Ewing is also continuing his story for Betty Banner in Defenders, which along with SHIELD is playing with the concepts of the start and ends of The Cosmoses as shown in Immortal Hulk #25. In June 2020 Immortal Hulk was Marvel's second-best selling title. By June 2021 it had dropped a bit, mostly due to a resurgence of the X-Men line that was getting an additional boost from the Hellfire Gala and related fashion variant covers. After 49 issues it was still one of their top ten selling series, only being outsold by Amazing Spider-Man, X-Books, and a few first issues. I am not omniscient and it is not impossible that for some reason Marvel told Al Ewing to cut his Immortal Hulk run short over a year before it was set to end, despite it being one of their best selling (and arguably their most critically popular) books being released. In order to make up for this bizarre decision, Marvel asked and Ewing agreed to write several additional tie-in issues to the book even though he was being kicked off of it. Marvel, also being gracious to the person whose run they hosed up and cut short agreed to greenlight him writing other books to keep his story going. It doesn't make any sense, but it's not impossible. This last chunk was not in response to Gaz-L but was responding to site's question, I've edited to reflect that and can also stop talking about Immortal Hulk. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 02:51
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You know what, gently caress it, you win.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:56
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Gaz, you're taking it too personally. Move on. E&C, stop piling it on. Move on. I liked the art a lot but I wish Bennett wasn't a trash man.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:56
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tbh i havent seen anything thus far that disproves the idea that Marvel looked at the popularity of IH and editorial said they'd give him 50 issues to wrap it up as a nice large round number, which for a Marvel book in the 2010s is pretty unheard of as it is. "look theres a tie in to an event that literally every title had a tie in for and a 5 issue gamma flight mini, and ewing liked betty as harpy so he decided to also use her in another unrelated book" isn't doing much for me as proof against this idea. did ewing say he had it plotted out for exactly 50 issues and no more, or is the announcement that there would be 50 issues literally the only thing there is to go on
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Oct 14, 2021 03:04
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What's the motive for realizing a book is very popular and deciding you want less of it?
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Oct 14, 2021 03:07
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so thats a no
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Oct 14, 2021 03:09
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We are at a stalemate, none of us are Al Ewing.
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Oct 14, 2021 03:10
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then perhaps you should refrain from being so condescendingly definitive
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Oct 14, 2021 03:11
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Gaz-L posted:I've also seen Ewing stick the landing on books that ran much shorter, such as his Ultimates. Maybe that was a function of the shorter run allowing less expectation to build, but it makes the dangling threads, rushed arcs and so forth sting more here. . . . damnit, definitely just picking up the complete collection now.
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Oct 14, 2021 03:19
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Admittedly the finale to Immortal Hulk wasn't as bombastic as I expected, but I think it work real well when it's taken in with the entire run. The One Below All being God's Hulk and inflicting the same random chaos onto Bruce as Bruce does onto regular people is a great way to tie it all back into Jacqueline's story and I think if there were concrete motives behind The One Above All's actions it'd muddy the parallels. Joe (and by extension Bruce) realizing what it's like to have your life blown up by someone whose actions you can't comprehend and having to live with the consequences feels more satisfying than an ending where he definitively stops the villain and saves the day. The Sterns brother story did add nothing at all...wasn't bad...just was? There are two things that felt real disappointing though, one being we never really get to see anyone talk about the Devil Hulk dying. He's the Hulk we the spent most time with in this run and he carried a lot of significance for Bruce, feels like there should've been more focus on the fallout from his death (I mean, the Devil Hulk was like a father to Bruce and the One Below All indirectly killed him. Seems like it'd mirror Hulk's actions indirectly killing Jacqueline's father). The other thing is finding out Donny Cates is up next, oh my god.
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Oct 14, 2021 04:04
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I liked the ending and I will not be surprised if some of the threads that were left unresolved turn up again in future Ewing projects, or maybe Crystal Fraser projects. Alpha Flight is still a going concern over in S.W.O.R.D., and who knows where that'll go post-Inferno, if it'll be relaunched, reoriented, rebooted as a new title, or whatever else. Everything with Sasquatch and Doc Samson and Charlene McGowan feels very open-ended still and this is certainly not Ewing's swan song at Marvel forever. That being said I also did not especially like the flashbacks to the old Sterns brothers. There was, perhaps, a time and place for it, but for me that time and place was probably not the very last issue. site posted:also since i was remined of it, criminal that the one above all wasn't kirby I've never been a fan of the bit about Jack Kirby being god in the Marvel Universe because, well, I just don't love deifying a real guy in that way, especially in comics that he might have had mixed feelings about for a company that had hurt him quite a bit in his life, and in this particular instance I feel like the One Above All was a little too antagonistic and awful to fit as a nice homage.
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Oct 14, 2021 04:24
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that's fair and actually ties in to the post i was here to make already, which is why does "god" even have a fake hulk persona to gently caress with people tied a certain type of radiation in a universe with 12 Satans tying hulk to the one above all is just really loving stupid even for Al site fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 04:30
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