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You just need the film itself to know why it wouldn't be common. It takes like 30 seconds to power up (it's actually a minute of onscreen time, but a lot of different scenes are shown that are happening simultaneously) and this is a life or death situation where every second counts. The ship might only survive long enough to jump because they thought it was empty and didn't bother firing on it until the last moment. The blast on impact is about the size of the attacking ship, and that impact releases a bunch of destructive energy but so does a regular missile or a laser beam. Anyway, Star Wars broke space combat in the very first movie with the existence of tractor beams. Why are you sending out fighters against the X-wings, Tarkin? Just shoot them with the tractor beam!
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Oct 13, 2021 17:38
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Real scifi universes don't have tractor beams 
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Oct 13, 2021 17:59
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General Dog posted:TROS is a terrible movie, but I've always found this complaint kind of strange. Why are people so invested in the Skywalker genetic lineage? it's very dumb to care but it's also the title of the movie, this terrible idea is the entire basis of the film
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Oct 13, 2021 18:11
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General Dog posted:TROS is a terrible movie, but I've always found this complaint kind of strange. Why are people so invested in the Skywalker genetic lineage?
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Oct 13, 2021 18:15
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm not. But Disney rebranded the entire 9-film series as "The Skywalker saga" and the plot is that the lineage of Space Christ dies out and is succeeded by Space Satan's granddaughter. I'd be fine with Rey claiming to be a skywalker if they'd gone with Rey-from-nowhere, and the idea that anyone can rise to be a hero. Or if they had done anything in the entire series about the Skywalker name and leegacy.
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Oct 13, 2021 18:20
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My read on it is that Disney is pulling the same poo poo they do with the MCU--they want to play with these epic conflicts and global stakes, but if anyone points out that the conflicts are vague nonsense, "it's about the characters." They seem pretty desperate for Star Wars to contain no political commentary or allegory, and making Star Wars the story of this family of elites is a way of doing that. The solution to tyranny is for the bad king to be replaced by a good queen.
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Oct 13, 2021 18:36
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Grendels Dad posted:It's a suicide attack withe the effect of a nuclear strike. Henceforth no space battles should take place in Star Wars, it's all hologram transmissions of admirals with their fingers hovering threateningly over the lightspeed button. Whoever blinks first loses. Except this one doesn't even blow up the enemy ship, just cripples it long enough for some of the Resistance to land safely.
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Oct 13, 2021 18:37
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Halloween Jack posted:My read on it is that Disney is pulling the same poo poo they do with the MCU--they want to play with these epic conflicts and global stakes, but if anyone points out that the conflicts are vague nonsense, "it's about the characters." They seem pretty desperate for Star Wars to contain no political commentary or allegory, and making Star Wars the story of this family of elites is a way of doing that. The solution to tyranny is for the bad king to be replaced by a good queen. Desperate for no political commentary doesn't explain Last Jedi lol Maybe POST Last Jedi yeah but it's only been one movie so far
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Oct 13, 2021 21:17
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This video is wrong and just grasping at straws. He says she didn't know what she was doing, only trying to distract them not actually take the ship out. IF that was the case, and keep in mind that the novelizations of the movie are ONLY cannon when they line up with what is shown on screen in the films, then they just undermined the poo poo out of her by having her gamble on bad odds exactly like she just admonished and called Poe a traitor for. There is literally nothing shown on screen that says she doesn't know what she is doing. I just watched the scene again, she sees what is happening and turns the ship around and leans back in the chair and sighs because she knows what she has to do and then lets it rip. If she were actually just guessing then it's bad writing. Not that that is new to this movie by this point, but lets continue.. Hux AND the other ship captain (?) know exactly what she is doing because as soon as she turns the ship around they immediately go NO and order the crew to unload on the ship and try to destroy it before she can execute the move. When they cut to the escape pod and show Connix and Poe watching Holdo turn the ship around Connix says to Poe that she thinks Holdo is running but he knows what is going on and says no she isn't. So Poe also knows Everything we see on screen contradicts the video explanation. The other thing is that when told the ship is preparing to hyperspace jump Hux correctly calls out that the ship is empty and it didn't matter. It's only when she turns around and faces them he knows what is actually happening. So if Hux, the other admiral, and Poe all know what is going on then it stands to reason that Holdo does as well. Especially since there is nothing shown on screen to 100% clearly show she is unsure it will work. It is framed as this was always her plan, to quite literally go down with the ship. This is why this movie sucks, and why this whole scene is stupid. It's a cool big explosion set piece that visually looks amazing. But when you stop and think about it logically it just falls apart. It's just Rian Johnson wanting to do a thing because it looked cool and consequences be damned. They realized this afterward too once people started going hey wait a second and in Rise of Skywalker they tried to retroactively explain it with away with a throwaway line of "well it's just a one in a million move". So not only did Johnson gently caress up all past and future space battles with this, the throwaway explanation as a middle finger to Johnson fucks up THAT movie because now Holdo just looks even more like a clueless rear end in a top hat by literally betting everyones safety on a million to one odds that she won't just jump clean through hyperspace away leaving them all to die. That is what would have happened too, because as previously established Hux knows the ship is empty and if she hyperspace jumps out it doesn't matter. This loving movie 
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Oct 13, 2021 22:03
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I find it very telling that all three sequel movies broke established rules about hyperspace. I find the star wars 8 one the least irritating actually since it at least resulted in a cool visual rather than being used solely to further increase the level of JJ crackhead pacing. It's one of those things that exposes the truth under the veneer of mawkish star wars reverence
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 22:14
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Rogue One had the Devastator warping in and completely gently caress the fleeing rebels by barreling through their hyperspace lane AND ramming enemy ships to allow a much smaller ship to win vs a big ship and ROTJ had suicide attacks already. TLJ doesn't change enough to "break" star wars fleet combat. Keep in mind the Raddus is gigantic compared to OT cruisers and it only works because the FO ignores whats going on until its too late.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:26
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yeah why does no one complain about hyperspace jumping under the shield in episode 7, that annoyed me more than the hyperspace ram or hyperspace skipping
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Oct 13, 2021 22:27
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cuntman.net posted:yeah why does no one complain about hyperspace jumping under the shield in episode 7, that annoyed me more than the hyperspace ram or hyperspace skipping You can check the receipts, I'm the one who complains about it. As for what's worst, it's a close contest between that and light speed skipping for me. But since light speed skipping also at least makes some attempt to dazzle you visually even if it totally fails, the one in star wars 7 probably is the worst
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Oct 13, 2021 22:32
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cuntman.net posted:yeah why does no one complain about hyperspace jumping under the shield in episode 7, that annoyed me more than the hyperspace ram or hyperspace skipping They do, and yes that is stupid. Hyperspace skimming, skipping, whatever it is called is also stupid as hell. It's unfathomably dumb and I can't believe no one was like hey don't do this it's long established this is a horrible idea in universe to do this. Of course this all traces back to Rian Johnson being stupid as hell because he had to have his movie centered around a slow speed space chase and chose to get to that route by deciding that hyperspace tracking is a good idea and again choosing to ignore the consequences of writing something like that
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Oct 13, 2021 22:33
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None of those break the true logic of the films, which is Flash Gordon Logic. Technology has always been subservient to Plot. Like to me the fact that so much of TLJ criticism boils down to either "this works here so why don't they do it all the time" or "why doesn't Holdo tell Poe the thing"- the second of which boils down to a character doing a thing you may not agree with and maybe the film takes her side but who cares- I dunno to me these are just not dealbreakers. And it's not like there are not valid criticisms of Last Jedi but I feel the forest gets missed for the trees- if you get hung up on the tactical wisdom of hyperspace kamikaze or the command structure of the Resistance, odds are there's something more fundamental to the film that's not engaging you. I just get sick of the same minor plot points being hashed out ad nauseum. EDIT: Also if you build half your argument around 'the filmmaker is stupid as Hell' that doesn't get far with me because that assumes a certain bad faith reading of creative decisions.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:49
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Nodoze posted:This video is wrong and just grasping at straws. Jesus.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:51
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Maxwell Lord posted:None of those break the true logic of the films, which is Flash Gordon Logic. Technology has always been subservient to Plot. Like to me the fact that so much of TLJ criticism boils down to either "this works here so why don't they do it all the time" or "why doesn't Holdo tell Poe the thing"- the second of which boils down to a character doing a thing you may not agree with and maybe the film takes her side but who cares- I dunno to me these are just not dealbreakers. I mean ultimately I think star wars 8 brings these criticisms on itself by not being flash gordon enough. Star wars 7, as we've pointed out, does get much more of a pass on similar (I would argue worse) hyperspace laziness, probably because it succeeds at reaching breathless flash gordon pacing. I do think there's some unintuitive truth to rian's problem being that he tried to explain and establish rules for the situation at all, which cues up the audience to think about and apply rules to the situation. JJ's smooth brain has no interest in such concerns and is therefore immune to a lot of that stuff
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Oct 13, 2021 22:54
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Hyperspace skipping and going under the shield are fun because they are novel ways to interact with an established mechanic that are implied in universe to be risky and take a lot of skill so are another way to emphasize the skill of the heroes. Hyperspace skipping is fun because of the montage-esque quality to it and I wish it was longer and served a better sequence than it was in (or if it was in the originally rumored force-fighting across time that Kylo and Rey were gonna do which sounded awesome). Going under the shield is also a fun one, only Han Solo can pull it off! He's the GOAT at doing risky poo poo! They're fun, I hope we get weird movies or series that take place way in the past where you travel through hyperspace by following strands of the force or whatever and its hella risky and the main character does it really good just so the nerds get angry.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:55
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Jerkface posted:Going under the shield is also a fun one, only Han Solo can pull it off! He's the GOAT at doing risky poo poo! thats actually why it sucks. hes not some superhuman best pilot ever hes just a guy, thats the whole point of the character. the way the sequels worship the ot is weird and dumb
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Oct 13, 2021 23:07
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Is there anything more flash gordon imaginable than the heroes getting thrown in jail for not being able to pay a parking ticket
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Oct 13, 2021 23:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:Is there anything more flash gordon imaginable than the heroes getting thrown in jail for not being able to pay a parking ticket So... spaceballs 
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Oct 13, 2021 23:25
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Maxwell Lord posted:None of those break the true logic of the films, which is Flash Gordon Logic. Technology has always been subservient to Plot. Like to me the fact that so much of TLJ criticism boils down to either "this works here so why don't they do it all the time" or "why doesn't Holdo tell Poe the thing"- the second of which boils down to a character doing a thing you may not agree with and maybe the film takes her side but who cares- I dunno to me these are just not dealbreakers. Exactly this, I cannot imagine getting so hung up on tactical space realism. When the Hokdo manoeuvre happened, my entire cinema cinema sat transfixed in stunned silence. You could have heard a pin drop. And I *know* this was repeated in every showing up and down the country. Which is basically all I need to justify that scene.
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Oct 13, 2021 23:27
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Exactly this, I cannot imagine getting so hung up on tactical space realism. When the movie has set up a tactical space situation with established rules at arduous length, you are prompted to evaluate the situation against the rules you've been told about by the films thus far. The flash gordon thing isn't just a magical spell you get to cast to deflect all criticism, the movie has to earn it by creating the tone and pace of a breathless space adventure. Star wars 8 absolutely does not achieve that
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Oct 13, 2021 23:31
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The rules of the low-speed chase are "we can hyperjump one more time but if we hyperjump the baddies will know where we've gone and chase us" they don't preclude hyperjumping at the baddies
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Oct 13, 2021 23:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ci1N24BwDQ
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Oct 14, 2021 00:25
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2house2fly posted:The rules of the low-speed chase are "we can hyperjump one more time but if we hyperjump the baddies will know where we've gone and chase us" they don't preclude hyperjumping at the baddies Why can't the First Order jump ahead of them and trap them? They have enough ships.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:06
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I never got the frothing anger over The Last Jedi, and in particular the Holdo ramming scene. Star Wars has never really been that internally consistent with its dogfighting in space veneer, and I thought it was at least a cool and different set piece over yet another trench run analogue. Then I watched Rise Of the Skywalker and I retroactively apologised to all the frothy nerds because of how much of an angry frothy nerd I got over the fact there was sixteen zillion star destroyers crewed by ghosts that required some central control ship to understand the up direction and how the entire galaxy was required to stop them or whatever the gently caress that all was.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:07
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Isometric Bacon posted:I never got the frothing anger over The Last Jedi, and in particular the Holdo ramming scene. Star Wars has never really been that internally consistent with its dogfighting in space veneer, and I thought it was at least a cool and different set piece over yet another trench run analogue. There was one star destroyer. The rest were complex holographic copies. They had to destroy the central transmission tower on horseback.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:12
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I really liked the setpiece of The Last Jedi having a chase scene where the last of the resistance is being chased across the galaxy by a superior force and on the verge of losing it all. I feel like the biggest issue with it was they decided to have a group of the characters saunter off mid chase and have adventures on another planet somewhere in the meantime, which literally killed any tension there was and made the situation look pretty absurd.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:14
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I can hand wave deep space ships not being able to navigate near a planetary surface
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Oct 14, 2021 01:14
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Automatic Slim posted:Why can't the First Order jump ahead of them and trap them? They have enough ships. Generally people give a pass to the situation not really making sense when the first order has infinite ships. This is only my initial instinct, but perhaps rian mostly gets away with it because one thing the film does thoroughly and successfully set up tone wise is the hopelessness of the situation
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Oct 14, 2021 01:14
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FunkyAl posted:There was one star destroyer. The rest were complex holographic copies. They had to destroy the central transmission tower on horseback. Lol I'm assuming this is joke unless they've retroactively changed poo poo in comic books or whatever to try and retcon the film to make a lick of sense... Though I haven't watched it since the cinemas since it left such a bad taste in my mouth.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:18
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Isometric Bacon posted:Lol I'm assuming this is joke unless they've retroactively changed poo poo in comic books or whatever to try and retcon the film to make a lick of sense... Though I haven't watched it since the cinemas since it left such a bad taste in my mouth. It's in the film, but it's not in the script. Palpatine is putting on a show for us, his friends, the creepy howling figures in hoods. The star destroyers are just something he's making up with computer animation.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:23
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Isometric Bacon posted:I feel like the biggest issue with it was they decided to have a group of the characters saunter off mid chase and have adventures on another planet somewhere in the meantime, which literally killed any tension there was and made the situation look pretty absurd. I think part of the problem might be Rose's inclusion. As initially conceived, Poe and Finn went on a buddy adventure to Canto Bight, but Johnson either couldn't or didn't want to find a reason for Finn & Poe to get past the honeymoon stage and have some interpersonal conflict, so he stuck Poe back with the fleet and invented Rose to be Finn's foil instead. If you're just cutting between the Rey and Finn/Poe stuff, you can kind of forget about the chase until it becomes relevant again or just use it as a ticking clock, but actually having to depict the low-speed chase regularly throughout the movie made the issues with it more apparent than they might have been otherwise.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:32
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Rose had like the best moment in the whole movie tho at canto blight which tied a lot of it together Imho
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Oct 14, 2021 01:38
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Automatic Slim posted:Why can't the First Order jump ahead of them and trap them? They have enough ships. If they did that the rebels would simply turn slightly in a different direction
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Oct 14, 2021 01:47
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Making the chase instead some kind of siege would have solved most of the problems. Explains how a single ship can dangerously run the blockade ala EP1 but you can't get the whole resistance out. Makes the Poe vs Holdo conflict a much more sensible way to have "sneak out vs. fight to the last man" argument. Removes the massive plothole of why the FO doesn't just jump half their fleet in front of the Resistance. Removes the massive plothole of Hyperspace Tracking without beacons having existed since the opening of the first movie and used in almost every previous film. It doesn't solve the Holdo Maneuvar problem but it's a start.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:53
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That could have ruled actually. Skip the spaceflight and get the rebels safely to the fortress on Crait. At some point reveal that the "fortress" is actually a hyperspace-capable capital ship, and at the end Holdo activates the engines, takes off and rams the empire. "Oh no! She's entering hyperspace within a planetary atmosphere! [Explodes]". Now the rebels are just stuck alone in the snow to be hunted down like dogs, cue Luke
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Oct 14, 2021 02:02
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https://i.imgur.com/hLMTrFY.mp4
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Oct 14, 2021 02:11
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I’ve been watching the 80s adaptation of that. It’s excellent but I feel it’s probably going to get too depressing to stick with
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Oct 14, 2021 02:15
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