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ToxicFrog posted:This reminds me of a question that's been lurking at the back of my mind for many years now: who was The Hobgoblin? I believe this is the comic you want:  The question of who the Hobgoblin was intended to be gets into some real back-office poo poo that I'd honestly just be googling to remember and recap for you, and I bet there are five thread regulars who could tell the tale. e: welp, I conflated a bunch of old comics in my head (but the above is a good read and one you might have missed if you only read that chunk of Amazing). Here's a link: http://www.comicscube.com/2015/08/the-weird-and-wild-history-of-hobgoblin.html Pastry of the Year fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 16:51
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Roger Stern intended Roderick Kingsley to be Hobgoblin, and apparently told Tom DeFalco that when he stopped writing Spider-Man. DeFalco didn't like that plan, and started dropping hints that Richard Fisk was Hobgoblin. DeFalco is then fired. Christopher Priest established that Fisk was the Rose, killed off Ned Leeds, who was another Hobgoblin red herring identity, and is also fired. Peter David, who had been writing Spectacular, briefly took over Amazing, and was like "ah gently caress it it was Ned Leeds the whole time, and he's dead now, bye." much later, Stern gets to do a mini that says actually Kingsley was indeed the original Hobgoblin. it's a mess.
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Oct 14, 2021 16:59
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It's a real shame his identity was handled so poorly because I loved everything else about Hobgoblin's stories back in the day.
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Oct 14, 2021 17:09
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Vincent posted:I always read it as Ilyana being the best friend and Rachel being the girlfriend (and Storm being the first crush). It's a bit more than best friend. 
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Oct 14, 2021 17:14
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Has Illyana ever had a romantic relationship? I can't think of one off the top of my head which doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you'd think there'd be something. Of course she DID have a poster of Tom Selleck on her wall but really, who among us.
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Oct 14, 2021 17:26
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Dawgstar posted:Has Illyana ever had a romantic relationship? I can't think of one off the top of my head which doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you'd think there'd be something. Of course she DID have a poster of Tom Selleck on her wall but really, who among us. I've been binging Jay and Miles, but it's after a long hiatus so I started with Inferno where she leaves, so I can't remember either.
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Oct 14, 2021 17:33
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I personally used to tend to read Ilyana as asexual or aromantic because of how completely traumatizing everything that happened to her in Limbo is, and just because I don't think she's EVER been really written as being interested in other people romantically or sexually. But then of course in Hickman's New Mutants you have her asking a bunch of death commandoes to make out with her so who knows. I think Claremont definitely wrote her dynamic with Kate as a little bit flirty and that kind of teen "I'm not prepared to be out yet but I sure am going to joke around and test boundaries with someone" thing, but I also think that all of the poo poo with the Darkchilde and Limbo and especially post-Infernus makes me really tend to read her as someone very very hesitant to let people get close or to show any kind of vulnerability or intimacy. Like her most intimate and unguarded relationship since coming back to life was with Colossus, which, it turned out, was mostly a long con to teach him the folly of trying to get close to her. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 19:16
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How many Goblin enemies has Spider-Man had?
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Oct 14, 2021 19:59
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Illyana was pretty thirsty for Sam after Lila Cheney put him in leather.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:16
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Vincent posted:How many Goblin enemies has Spider-Man had? Oh god, like how many individual people? Just by title alone there's Green, Grey, Red, Proto-, Hob-, and Demo-. Menace as well, though she didn't have a Goblin name. There have been multiple Green Goblins and Hobgoblins each.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:39
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Vincent posted:How many Goblin enemies has Spider-Man had? Several Green Goblins. Hobgoblin. Demogoblin. Red Goblin. Green Goblin infected with a symbiote. It's all pretty much the Mortal Kombat style of same character with different colour scheme.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:41
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Vincent posted:How many Goblin enemies has Spider-Man had? There's probably more but Green, Hob, Demo, Hemo (Hemogoblin might be a joke character I read about but was never actually in comics), I kinda think there was a Red Goblin, and then Jack O'Lantern if you want to count him.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:42
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Red Goblin was Norman with the Carnage symbiote.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:46
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don't forgot the three goth lady goblins who turned out to be robots that Harry built before he died, or the fourth Green Goblin who was a good guy with his own book but later became the third Hobgoblin. the answer to the question is "a lot." a lot of goblins.
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Oct 14, 2021 21:34
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Karma Tornado posted:don't forgot the three goth lady goblins who turned out to be robots that Harry built before he died, or the fourth Green Goblin who was a good guy with his own book but later became the third Hobgoblin. the answer to the question is "a lot." a lot of goblins. I was going by different Goblins, not different people using the same goblin name.
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Oct 14, 2021 21:38
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Skwirl posted:There's probably more but Green, Hob, Demo, Hemo (Hemogoblin might be a joke character I read about but was never actually in comics), I kinda think there was a Red Goblin, and then Jack O'Lantern if you want to count him. I don't count Jack O'Lantern, though he is close. He has probably my favourite mode of transport in all of comics, the pogo disc board. Hard to find good images from Amazing #254 without Marvel Unlimited but this is one image of it.  Unlike the powered glider the Goblins use or real flight like the Vulture you can't just throttle up or aim towards the sky and get away from Spider-Man easily. The pogo board has to keep bouncing off something to maintain speed so Jack O'Lantern is confined to the streets like Spider-Man. Makes for a perfect chase.
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Oct 14, 2021 22:28
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Open Marriage Night posted:Illyana was pretty thirsty for Sam after Lila Cheney put him in leather. I mean, are you going to blame her.
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Oct 14, 2021 22:39
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Lobok posted:I don't count Jack O'Lantern, though he is close. He has probably my favourite mode of transport in all of comics, the pogo disc board. I always liked this cover (his first appearance), but it's good that he traded in the plain purple bodysuit for something a little flashier. 
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Oct 14, 2021 22:48
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Why does 'I'll give you a hint, Jack -- I didn't come from the pumpkin patch!" amuse me so.
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Oct 14, 2021 22:52
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Just finished Atlantis Attacks and I am in no hurry to ever read that again. That was a bit of a slog to get through, though i did like this exchange in the 13th issue (paraphrased): Thor: "We have to defeat Set before he gains an irreversible foothold in this dimension." Grimm: "Foothold? But he doesn't have any feet." Thor: "Now you're testing my loving patience." Coming up to "The Assassin-Nation Plot" in Spider-Man so hoping that's a good read. Then Acts of Vengeance which apparently has 68 parts? Hope that's a decent one.
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Oct 14, 2021 22:55
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bessantj posted:Just finished Atlantis Attacks and I am in no hurry to ever read that again. That was a bit of a slog to get through, though i did like this exchange in the 13th issue (paraphrased): Assassin-Nation Plot is decent IIRC. Acts of Vengeance is weird because it's just heroes fighting villains they normally wouldn't fight. It's fun if you like any of the individual comics, but it's not an event the way other events are events. The Cap issues have one of my favorite moments in comics ever, but it's entirely divorced from everything else, and that's true for pretty much every book.
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Oct 14, 2021 23:27
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There is some light plot running through it though because the villains fighting different heroes is being orchestrated behind the scenes. But I wouldn't recommend all 68 issues, just pick the match-ups or creative teams that seem the most interesting.
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Oct 14, 2021 23:53
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bessantj posted:Just finished Atlantis Attacks and I am in no hurry to ever read that again. That was a bit of a slog to get through, though i did like this exchange in the 13th issue (paraphrased): I enjoyed the Uncanny X-Men tie-in where the Serpent Society breaks into the Mansion and of course they get taken out quick because this is late 80's X-Men and it's down to Rock Python I think and Colossus or somebody asks "So what do you do?" and Rocky says he throws down capsules that make tentacles. Colossus or Rogue say that's super cute and does he just want to give up now? (Also paraphrased.)
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Oct 15, 2021 01:24
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Skwirl posted:Assassin-Nation Plot is decent IIRC. Acts of Vengeance is weird because it's just heroes fighting villains they normally wouldn't fight. It's fun if you like any of the individual comics, but it's not an event the way other events are events. The Cap issues have one of my favorite moments in comics ever, but it's entirely divorced from everything else, and that's true for pretty much every book. Thor has his classic Juggernaut fight, and the introduction of the New Warriors. Amazing Spider-Man has cosmic Spidey clown on the likes of Graviton, Magneto, Gray Hulk (with Todd coming back for one last issue), and the Tri-Sentinel! Don’t know if I read any of the other AoV books.
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Oct 15, 2021 01:55
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Karma Tornado posted:Roger Stern intended Roderick Kingsley to be Hobgoblin, and apparently told Tom DeFalco that when he stopped writing Spider-Man. DeFalco didn't like that plan, and started dropping hints that Richard Fisk was Hobgoblin. DeFalco is then fired. Christopher Priest established that Fisk was the Rose, killed off Ned Leeds, who was another Hobgoblin red herring identity, and is also fired. Peter David, who had been writing Spectacular, briefly took over Amazing, and was like "ah gently caress it it was Ned Leeds the whole time, and he's dead now, bye." much later, Stern gets to do a mini that says actually Kingsley was indeed the original Hobgoblin. it's a mess.  So there was no agreed-upon plan for HG's identity, just a bunch of different writers all trying to grab the wheel long enough to drive the storyline to their preferred conclusion? That's amazing.Skwirl posted:It's a bit more than best friend. I mean They were roommates More seriously -- How Wonderful! posted:I personally used to tend to read Ilyana as asexual or aromantic because of how completely traumatizing everything that happened to her in Limbo is, and just because I don't think she's EVER been really written as being interested in other people romantically or sexually. But then of course in Hickman's New Mutants you have her asking a bunch of death commandoes to make out with her so who knows. IIRC Claremont intended Rachel Summers to be Kate's true love (with Ilyana and Storm as crushes-transitioning-to-chosen-family or thereabouts), but you couldn't actually show that on page under the CCA.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:45
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On this topic, I got around to reading the Marvel Pride thing recently, and I feel like they're still not quite willing to make the jump with Kitty/Kate. There's that story with Prodigy and Speed in the special and Prodigy is relating that being able to experience Kitty's feelings of attraction for Colossus and realise they were very similar to his own was a big part of him realising he was bi, but like, it seems like an obvious extension of that beat to bring up her being into girls and him also feeling an echo of his own experience there too. It feels like the closer to 'your aunt could name them' a superhero is, the more cagey the Big Two are about having them be visibly queer. (see also "Superman is bi (but not that one)" or "Robin is pan (kinda)") For a bit more content in this thread, that special also had a Mystique/Destiny story that implies Destiny is literally meant to be The Irene Adler and that Professor James Moriarty exists in the 616. Has this ever been referenced before?
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Oct 15, 2021 02:56
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ToxicFrog posted:
But you could specify that Rachel be draw in a skintight vinyl/latex suit covered in spikes, wearing a gimp mask and a collar with a leash on it and nobody would say anything.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:25
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Gaz-L posted:On this topic, I got around to reading the Marvel Pride thing recently, and I feel like they're still not quite willing to make the jump with Kitty/Kate. There's that story with Prodigy and Speed in the special and Prodigy is relating that being able to experience Kitty's feelings of attraction for Colossus and realise they were very similar to his own was a big part of him realising he was bi, but like, it seems like an obvious extension of that beat to bring up her being into girls and him also feeling an echo of his own experience there too. Clive Reston who was Shang-chi ally, father was hinted to be bond and his great uncle Sherlock Holmes.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:28
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:But you could specify that Rachel be draw in a skintight vinyl/latex suit covered in spikes, wearing a gimp mask and a collar with a leash on it and nobody would say anything. That's just good wholesome male gaze objectification, nothing wrong with that in the 80s but girls kissing girls, for their own enjoyment? Ew, you perv!
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Oct 15, 2021 03:29
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Gaz-L posted:On this topic, I got around to reading the Marvel Pride thing recently, and I feel like they're still not quite willing to make the jump with Kitty/Kate. There's that story with Prodigy and Speed in the special and Prodigy is relating that being able to experience Kitty's feelings of attraction for Colossus and realise they were very similar to his own was a big part of him realising he was bi, but like, it seems like an obvious extension of that beat to bring up her being into girls and him also feeling an echo of his own experience there too. She kissed a woman in Marauders not too long ago, so it's out there and textual now, but it hasn't really been followed up on. My problem with Kate and Rachel is just that frankly they did not interact very much in Uncanny and Rachel spends much of that stint either shell-shocked or consumed with rage. They have a nice dynamic in Excalibur but it has been years since I've read it. I get that a lot of this is just that Claremont was stymied by what he could and couldn't actually say or depict on-panel, but like-- the issue of Excal where Sat-Yr-9 takes Kate out for her birthday is VERY much written as Kate falling completely for a dangerous older woman, and under the more lenient editorial constraints of the early Mekanix tiptoes up to the line of her coming out on-panel before Sentinels start attacking. What's interesting is that he appears to have been able to get away with a lot more with his villains-- Mystique and Destiny being lovers is pretty evident to any post-pubescent reader of his Uncanny run and the tradition of writing Black Tom and Juggernaut as a couple (which Nicieza confirms doing on his Cerebro podcast interview) runs, arguably, all the way back to Tom's first appearance. And then of course off to the side of the main 80s mutant titles, you have intriguing stuff like Peter Gillis' New Defenders, in which Bobby and Beast are EXTREMELY camp, Cloud's genderfluidity sparks Bobby into an emotional crisis, and we see a college student explicitly refer to "coming out of the closet" as a mutant.
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Oct 15, 2021 04:08
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Yeah, Mekanix definitely has her rebuffing Karma come off as more not being into Xi'an that way than not being into girls in general. I think it's just a bit frustrating to dance around the words or having it be one off references. Wonder Woman kind of falls into the same grey area where it's hard to say she's not queer but great care is taken not to have appear too gay lest the mainstream clutch their pearls.
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Oct 15, 2021 04:18
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ToxicFrog posted:-- I think this reading makes a lot of sense, although her dynamic with Kate in general and the whole thing with the soulsword carries a lot of barely-subtexual indication that, even if their relationship isn't sexual, it's one that's a lot closer than just friendship. I think if somebody wanted to write a story about Ilyana working through her Limbo trauma and finding some peace then yeah I think her and Kate have one of the best and most interesting bonds in comics, whether that's romantic or sexual or familial or what. I think many latter-day scenes of them together play up on that sense of "If things were a little different then..." which is a really familiar dynamic to me in close queer friendships. (I think it's telling that the tattoo artist she goes and kisses after her resurrection has uhhh a familiar haircut and general look):  -Marauders #12 This dynamic is really salient in New Mutants: Dead Souls, a mini series by Matthew Rosenberg which is significantly better than his disastrous Uncanny run. This scene of everybody at a funeral turns out to be an illusion but it's still nice.   This is a scene between two people who, no matter what label one puts on their relationship, REALLY GET EACH OTHER, who know exactly what the other needs to hear. It's a really casual and intimate scene of the sort that you don't see very often in superhero comics. I think a lot of straight guys who read comics really underestimate how much touch and physical affection goes into friendships between women but I think this scene nails the sense that there's a depth of shared experience between this two characters (that's not always actually borne out by looking back at the Claremont run-- now that I think about it, once Ilyana is sorted over to New Mutants and Kate is locked into Uncanny they don't really interact very much. I think the Ilyana and Dani Moonstar friendship is a lot of fun too-- the "team supreme" as Ilyana calls it at one point, those two being, in practice, the kind of most competent and pragmatic people on the team, the "adults in the room" in juxtaposition to Xian (who is barely ever in the comic) and Sam (who looks the part of "team leader" but is too insecure and wishy washy to ever carry a lot of authority on the page).
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Oct 15, 2021 04:43
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ngl one kiss halfway through a so-far 24 issue run, with a person who is never seen again, feels, and i'm loathe to use the term, queer-baity
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Oct 15, 2021 05:55
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So what’s Rachel been up to lately anyways. I feel like the character got introduced, messed around a bit in Excalibur, and then was completely forgotten by the writers
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Oct 15, 2021 07:49
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site posted:ngl one kiss halfway through a so-far 24 issue run, with a person who is never seen again, feels, and i'm loathe to use the term, queer-baity In the specific case of Kitty, I'm kind of alright with it as basically legitimizing 40 odd years of writing behind the Comics Code. Outright stating that Mystique and Destiny were a couple and the Iceman thing make it seem like the X office at least is pretty onboard. But yeah, it does really need to go beyond a kiss with one character on one page to mean something.
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Oct 15, 2021 09:42
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Dawgstar posted:I enjoyed the Uncanny X-Men tie-in where the Serpent Society breaks into the Mansion and of course they get taken out quick because this is late 80's X-Men and it's down to Rock Python I think and Colossus or somebody asks "So what do you do?" and Rocky says he throws down capsules that make tentacles. Colossus or Rogue say that's super cute and does he just want to give up now? (Also paraphrased.) Yeah that was pretty fun Rogue asked what he did and when he told her her reply is "Un-huh". She then asks if he wants to hand the object over and he just tosses it to her and runs.
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Oct 15, 2021 09:51
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Just finished "The Assassin-Nation Plot" and eh, it's alright and one I would read again in front of Atlantis Attacks. One problem I did have is there are several Spider-Man titles and I don't have access to all of them so plot points that appear in issues of The Amazing Spider-Man suddenly disappear. I assume they are resolved/continued in Spectacular Spider-Man/Web of Spider-Man but MU hasn't uploaded those issues yet. Also Todd McFarlane's art is so different to other artists, part 5 was drawn by Erik Larsen and there is a change. McFarlane loves his huge hair and large faces.
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Oct 15, 2021 13:09
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It's pretty wild they still don't have all of Spider-Man's comics available. I was disappointed back in the day about their spotty Marvel Team-Up issues.
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Oct 15, 2021 13:21
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Lobok posted:It's pretty wild they still don't have all of Spider-Man's comics available. I was disappointed back in the day about their spotty Marvel Team-Up issues. You'd think they'd have them all on there with how popular a character he is.
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Oct 15, 2021 13:42
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thetoughestbean posted:So what’s Rachel been up to lately anyways. I feel like the character got introduced, messed around a bit in Excalibur, and then was completely forgotten by the writers Oh, she's been around off and on but the problem with Rachel is the Phoenix. Nothing ever seems to stick for her. When Claremont brought her back the last time he wrote Uncanny, she decided to go by Marvel Girl (and with all the talk of relationships had a crush/thing for... Nightcrawler). Marvel Girl lasted a while until the X-Men Gold relaunch where she went by the new moniker of... Prestige which I don't think anybody remembers. Then she was in the sadly cut short recent X-Factor which was super entertaining and where they remembered her actual mutant power is perfect for investigations. Rachel just seems to bounce around books and nobody uses her much.
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Oct 15, 2021 14:13
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