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I think the big problem there is couching Israeli imperialism in some "cycle of vengeance" thus distracting from what it actually is
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Oct 15, 2021 03:35
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Bust Rodd posted:Genuinely don’t understand why an adult man recounting an experience from his youth where something made him angry and then later regretting those feelings as an adult with a greater context for the situation would give you pause, this is one of the reasons why I think Druckman makes good, thought provoking games with compelling stories. I mean the thing nobody does where they speak random words of their non English language like a character on the Superfriends. Manny's entire personality is "the guy who says pendejo". It's not like any of the other nonwhite characters in the game do it so it's just ???? edit: It's nitpicking but there are a lot of contrivances to get where the game wants to go, even if I did end up there in the end. Mel teleports back and forth across roads that are flooded and falling apart, while heavily pregnant. Tommy is basically a vanishing revenge elemental who completely disappears when he's done as a plot device. mycot fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 03:36
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Senator Drinksalot posted:I think the big problem there is couching Israeli imperialism in some "cycle of vengeance" thus distracting from what it actually is Then I guess it’s a lucky break that he really does not appear to be saying that at all!
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Oct 15, 2021 03:42
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Bust Rodd posted:Genuinely don’t understand why an adult man recounting an experience from his youth where something made him angry and then later regretting those feelings as an adult with a greater context for the situation would give you pause, this is one of the reasons why I think Druckman makes good, thought provoking games with compelling stories. Do you think a 14 year old growing up in Israel is supposed to have perfect politics at that age? Yeah I haven’t played tlou2 so I didn’t read the spoiled bit but all the quote did was make me more curious about the game. It’s a totally reasonable thing from him and I’m happy he’s willing to share that story and use those feelings to be creative and explore it via videogames. Man I gotta play tlou2. I don’t hear anything when people complain about a “lack” of ps5 games my backlog is yuuuuuuge.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:45
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I haven't played it so I dunno I was just going off that quote
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Oct 15, 2021 03:45
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He was inspired by his own feelings for mob justice to create a story about revenge, Druckman haters then turn this over and over in their head like a rock tumbler until their perfectly smooth brain shits out “Druckman is a Zionist!” horseshit. An Israeli born American should be able to relay these childhood experiences to us, it’s helpful to understand how indoctrinated normal Israelis are into thinking Palestinians are all dirty Hamas terrorists or whatever.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:52
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Bust Rodd posted:He was inspired by his own feelings for mob justice to create a story about revenge, Druckman haters then turn this over and over in their head like a rock tumbler until their perfectly smooth brain shits out “Druckman is a Zionist!” horseshit. An Israeli born American should be able to relay these childhood experiences to us, it’s helpful to understand how indoctrinated normal Israelis are into thinking Palestinians are all dirty Hamas terrorists or whatever. But I don't like to read that Neil Druckmann was angry at one point in his life, it reminds me of Bernie Sanders.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:58
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any1 got the hosed up little man tweet edit: nvm found it haha https://twitter.com/Jeff_like_Feff/status/1196161272351350784?s=20 beep by grandpa fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 03:59
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Bust Rodd posted:He was inspired by his own feelings for mob justice to create a story about revenge, Druckman haters then turn this over and over in their head like a rock tumbler until their perfectly smooth brain shits out “Druckman is a Zionist!” horseshit. An Israeli born American should be able to relay these childhood experiences to us, it’s helpful to understand how indoctrinated normal Israelis are into thinking Palestinians are all dirty Hamas terrorists or whatever.
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Oct 15, 2021 04:09
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RareAcumen posted:But I don't like to read that Neil Druckmann was angry at one point in his life, it reminds me of Bernie Sanders. lmao e: Dammit now the “cromulant fuckcrustable of a day” tweet is back in my head
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Oct 15, 2021 05:11
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Hella good tweet. It's the first thing in the Elden Ring thread OP if you lost track of it. Who is this????
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Oct 15, 2021 05:57
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Bust Rodd posted:He was inspired by his own feelings for mob justice to create a story about revenge, Druckman haters then turn this over and over in their head like a rock tumbler until their perfectly smooth brain shits out “Druckman is a Zionist!” horseshit. An Israeli born American should be able to relay these childhood experiences to us, it’s helpful to understand how indoctrinated normal Israelis are into thinking Palestinians are all dirty Hamas terrorists or whatever. I hate getting drawn into this argument again but you're definitely ignoring the imagery he uses and that's where I think the real problems lie. I mean you can say he's just talking about his memories about the west bank inspiring his anti mob justice story but you have to reckon with the fact that the game is extremely unsubtle in showing that the WLF is directly inspired in its visuals by the IDF. Throughout the game we see them as being over militaristic, paranoid, torturers, etc. but we also see them looking after their people, families, burrito night, etc. A lot of negative but some positives too. While I know the Scars have more visual inspiration from medieval Christianity in Europe with the WLF=IDF thing coming in so heavy it's hard not to see the Scars as an allegory for Hamas/Palestinians. It's problematic then that our main impressions of the Scars are as backwards religious zealots, who have no room for compromise and will kill anyone encroaching on their holy land in horrific ways. Our only positive look into their community is via 2 members making a desperate bid to escape and perhaps if we're being generous some lines Lev says with religious philosophy that helps people overcome fear. At worst Drucker is still seeing/portraying the Palestinians as dirty Hamas terrorists... he's just less aware that he's still doing that. At best he's is 'both sidesing' the Israel/Palestine conflict and people didn't like that because it's actually the oppressor and the oppressed.
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Oct 15, 2021 06:18
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Oct 15, 2021 06:59
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The Neal! posted:It's problematic then that our main impressions of the Scars are as backwards religious zealots, who have no room for compromise and will kill anyone encroaching on their holy land in horrific ways. That's just not how I see the Scars at all. I see them as rather forward thinking in relation to civilization's predicament, they live in balance with nature and value the holy site associated with their teacher, which brings them into conflict with a larger clan of people who are obsessed with the unsustainable old ways of living. That they are guided by reactionary hardliners by the time we meet them in the story is kind of a reflection on how any group of people can be manipulated by charismatic leaders in times of desperation. This is even keeping in mind the fact that they aren't all that well developed in the scheme of things, and yeah, Druckman probably is making somewhat of a moral equivalency to some degree which I don't agree with. Lucky for us that's not the only thing the story is about! Saying something is 'problematic' is usually just a way to avoid engaging with it. It's a nothing criticism, it means nothing and adds nothing.
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Oct 15, 2021 07:19
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Saying something is 'problematic' is usually just a way to avoid engaging with it. It's a nothing criticism, it means nothing and adds nothing. I mean I'm engaging with it in literally every part of my post. I think you just have a problem with that word. You can replace it with 'misguided' or 'bad if you like. Your reading of the scars is certainly more generous than mine. I enjoyed the game. I just wanted to reply on the statement that people are mad at Druckman because they just think he's a Zionist. I think there's legitimate criticisms.
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Oct 15, 2021 09:08
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I think reading the WLF/Scars as some sort of direct 1:1 comparison between Israel/Palestine is pretty presumptuous. I'm not going to say that there is no analogue there , but the connection felt loose at best to me. Either way I think it's a pretty big misread of his comments in general, which are very personal and not about some broad political ideology, even if it's looming there in the background. It's honestly something I can relate to super hard as a young American kid watching og Desert Storm on the news. Seeing these strange foreigners burning and stomping on American flags it was the first time I remember truly hating people. Then you grow up and realize that the bullshit you are watching on the news is just propaganda and everything is a lot more complicated than that. In fact what they were doing was pretty drat easy to relate to. The factions in TLOU 2 are mostly background noise. The game is 100% about the characters not their affiliations.
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Oct 15, 2021 09:49
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*americans seeing literally any conflict in media* “Just like the holy land”
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Oct 15, 2021 09:51
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Even growing up in america I never felt american so I always enjoyed watching ppl stomp on american flags mostly cuz how pissed off ppl got about it. Which TLOU2 faction does that make me?
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Oct 15, 2021 09:56
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the wildcats
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Oct 15, 2021 09:58
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When I was 2 years old I was so disgusted with American politics, I would just throw my cheerios everywhere and then poo poo my diaper out of disgust because I am Fridge Corn and my faction is Edgy Since Birth.
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Oct 15, 2021 10:06
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veni veni veni posted:When I was 2 years old I was so disgusted with American politics, I would just throw my cheerios everywhere and then poo poo my diaper out of disgust because I am Fridge Corn and my faction is Edgy Since Birth. I mean, I'm not saying I was always Perfectly Ideologically Pure but since one of my parents was Not American and was vociferously proud of being Not American, I sorta always had a Not American perspective available to me since birth.
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Oct 15, 2021 10:21
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veni veni veni posted:When I was 2 years old I was so disgusted with American politics, I would just throw my cheerios everywhere and then poo poo my diaper out of disgust because I am Fridge Corn and my faction is Edgy Since Birth. Holy gently caress, Fridge Corn you were a really cool baby.
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Oct 15, 2021 11:27
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I know Lost Judgment lets you beat up delinquent teenagers, but what's a video game where you can own annoyingly precocious 8-year olds? Those kids are the loving worst and nobody in our society gives them enough poo poo!
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Oct 15, 2021 11:30
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exquisite tea posted:Lost Judgment lets you beat up delinquent teenagers, but what's a video game where you can own annoyingly precocious 8-year olds? I've been doing that in Pokemon Unite all week
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Oct 15, 2021 11:31
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exquisite tea posted:what's a video game where you can own annoyingly precocious 8-year olds? Warzone
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Oct 15, 2021 11:33
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Actually flag talk has reminded me of the time *puts on Bust Rodd brand posting gloves* I was dating this girl in high school and she had come from this big time navy family. Like her grandfather was some high ranking naval officer in ww2, her dad was some high ranking naval officer, both her older brothers were in the navy blah blah blah. Anyway first time I brought her round mine and took her to my room, I had at the time a big american flag pinned on the wall above my bed which I had hung upside-down. Over top of it I pinned the Soviet tank flag that my dad had brought back with him from his trip to st Petersburg in 1972, which was smaller than the american flag so it made for a nice effect. Anyway, the moment she saw the flag display she started crying and asked me to take it down *takes off the Bust Rodd gloves* I took her home
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Oct 15, 2021 11:41
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fridge corn posted:Actually flag talk has reminded me of the time lol
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Oct 15, 2021 11:51
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Oct 15, 2021 11:53
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The Neal! posted:
… uuuh, how exactly do you think the US military behaves any differently, and why would the military of Seattle, WA make you think of the IDF before it makes you think of the US Army, the most destructive imperial force on Earth since the British East India Trading company? Like were you playing the game and the whole time going “these Americans in American military gear in America behaving extremely Americanly are ACTUALLY the horrible warlike Israelis, which means the hooting tree people MUST be Palestinians!” Because… uh… that maybe invites you to look at whether or not you’re confirming your own biases about Israel & Palestine without actually thinking about what the actual text of the game is and skipping straight to the (pretty much imaginary) subtext that you think Neil Druckman forced, either consciously or unconsciously, his personal views of Palestinians as hooting tree people and that was maintained throughout the game written and crafted by 300+ people. I mean it’s possible that your interpretation is correct, it just seems like a truly incredible reach to think that’s what he’s doing, and you’re just presuming that he’s anti-Palestinian because he’s Israeli. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 12:04
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fridge corn posted:Actually flag talk has reminded me of the time *standing in the little league bleachers, embarrassing myself and my wife as I bleat encouragement like a goat while you round the posting bases* “THAT’S MY BOY! LET’S loving GOOOOO!”
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Oct 15, 2021 12:06
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exquisite tea posted:I know Lost Judgment lets you beat up delinquent teenagers, but what's a video game where you can own annoyingly precocious 8-year olds? katamari damacy
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Oct 15, 2021 12:56
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old and busted thread is on FIRE today
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Oct 15, 2021 12:57
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exquisite tea posted:what's a video game where you can own annoyingly precocious 8-year olds? Quantum of Phallus posted:Warzone lol
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Oct 15, 2021 12:57
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Bust Rodd posted:… uuuh, how exactly do you think the US military behaves any differently, and why would the military of Seattle, WA make you think of the IDF before it makes you think of the US Army, the most destructive imperial force on Earth since the British East India Trading company? Honestly while I played the game I thought it was the US military, it's because of Druckman's own mouth that I started to draw the connections because he said that's where he got the inspiration from. The WP article says: quote:The formulation for Ellie’s turn toward darkness can be traced back to the year 2000. Then in his early 20s, Druckmann witnessed news footage of a crowd lynching two Israeli soldiers in the West Bank. I mean sure, you could try to isolate that and say "oh no that's just about Ellie" but I think that right there is the actual reach because after hearing that quote I just can't buy that's it's a simple coincidence that the WLF soldiers are the ones being lynched by the Scars or many of the other ways its been pointed out that each side is coded IDF and Hamas. I don't think every take on why it's coded that way is true, some people really are reaching but it's certainly not out of nowhere that people have come to the conclusion that if the Israel/Palestine conflict inspired one aspect of the game it probably inspired others.
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Oct 15, 2021 13:08
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So you would be okay with the haunting imagery of woodlands nativists lynching soldiers if Neil Druckman’s childhood trauma had taken place in South Africa instead of Isreal? Look, I really don’t want to come off as being overtly dismissive, I’m def not trying to antagonize you, but is all your information regarding this stuff coming from the the one VICE article? Because here is what they are saying: -Seattle is surrounded by concrete walls and towers, just like the West Bank -They refer to Seraphites as “Terrorists” -The WLF have resources and firepower, so the Scars have to use pluck and ingenuity to secretly move around and plan sneak attacks, and the writer suggests the sky bridges between the buildings are merely an inversion of Palestinian underground tunnel systems -They refer to Scars as religious fanatics, the Scars are displayed as “significantly religious” Then after those examples (which I argue apply to essentially all Occupied Military conflicts except maybe the last one) the author spends like 5-6 paragraphs talking about how the game is about the cycle of violence and works to portray both sides as equally wrong and hosed up, and that’s actually Zionism because in reality the Israelis started it and blah blah blah and the cherry on top is how Pregnant Dina wishing for a life of peace for her new baby and talking about how Jews had to survive the Holocaust and they’ve always been persecuted means that the game is clearly depicting Israel as being in the right. It’s just one huge leap after another, with a volume of words used to obfuscate the fact that the connective tissue here is extremely weak and insubstantial. “The WLF use military checkpoints and refer to their enemy as terrorists and the Scars are sneaky and religious ergo these two factions are OBVIOUSLY IDF vs Palestine” just feels extremely contrived to me, as an American who has despised the military since the 6th grade when I helped organize a student protest against the war with Books, Not Bombs. I literally could not be more of an anti-war, anti-Fasc, anti-Imperialism croney, I have absolutely no love for the IDF and think Israel is hosed up and should be sanctioned by literally everyone until they get their poo poo together, but this article is attributing basic global military tactics to one specific military and then weaving an elaborate fan fiction based on their interpretation of the synagogue scene. If you have other, better thought out examples of these parallels I’d entertain those, but these are flimsy AF. I guess maybe if I’m gonna meet you halfway, the the religious fundamentalists who’ve taken over Scar leadership could be viewed as Hamas and Lev and his sister could be viewed as the peaceful, normal Palestinians caught in the middle between Hamas and the IDF, which is a different conflict//conversation than Isreal/Palestine Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 13:29
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Joel, a bearded scruffy man who kills people by blowing them up with pipe bombs, is clearly based on the IRA
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Oct 15, 2021 13:32
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This is what happens when you bring OLED with strange colors nobody has seen before. The thread start hallucinogening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfYAXMwCpk0 I need to buy one of these big TV's for my consoles. Really the last time I changed device was from a big TV to a slighly smaller computer monitor with hdmi port. Maybe I made a mistake.
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Oct 15, 2021 13:53
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Bust Rodd posted:, as an American who has despised the military since the 6th grade when I helped organize a student protest against the war with Books, Not Bombs. drat dude, nice work! And I didnt even start refusing to stand for the pledge of allegiance until I was in 7th grade 
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Oct 15, 2021 14:09
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Can't comment on the political conversation here but for what it's worth the Wolves didn't come off as sympathetic at all. I think the point the game was making was that after ~20 years humanity has basically returned to "normal" and settled into factions declaring war on each other constantly, which is probably what would happen.
mycot fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 17:28
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Quantum of Phallus posted:Joel, a bearded scruffy man who kills people by blowing them up with pipe bombs, is clearly based on the IRA lmao
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Oct 15, 2021 18:02
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