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Taear posted:A was said earlier Gaal's backstory felt pointless. We kinda know it and I don't like the idea that a person is just "naturally great" at maths when they're a kid on a planet where maths is literally illegal. Culture and society being ignored for individual stuff feels super off to me. But Gaals backstory was also the backstory of her planet. They explained why the planet was flooded and why everyone is a religious fanatic now. Its seemed pretty clear that she used to go to school and learn math. Its not from the book, but it fits into the universe perfectly and foreshadows what the Foundation is going to do to control their first little empire Manipulating people with religious fanaticism is one the the main themes of the first book
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Oct 15, 2021 23:10
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Taear posted:Also I know it's dumb but loving hell the accents argh. Two super british people with a kid that has a zimbabwean accent is dumb! Give everyone the same accent or at least have a TRY. That goes double for Terminus. Space Irish!
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Oct 15, 2021 23:16
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Rutibex posted:But Gaals backstory was also the backstory of her planet. They explained why the planet was flooded and why everyone is a religious fanatic now. Its seemed pretty clear that she used to go to school and learn math. Its not from the book, but it fits into the universe perfectly and foreshadows what the Foundation is going to do to control their first little empire I guess I don't see why her planet matters. gently caress it's hard to see how she matters really, she's been in it so little. It felt like she'd learned some from that guy but I can't help but see her as like 14 years old so it's hard for me to see her as having TIME to develop into a mathematical genius. The story feels so disconnected. Like I kinda know where it's going (even if I hadn't read the books, I know the end goal) and all the stuff going on feels pointless when I know that's the end point. It also does a lot of like...weird dramatic bits (say, when she was working out where she was when she was on the ship) that just don't make sense to me. Who cares where she is, why is it presented as a big deal TO US? The timescales feel all over too, I think that's part of what makes it feel ungrounded to me. Taear fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 23:19
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Rutibex posted:But Gaals backstory was also the backstory of her planet. They explained why the planet was flooded and why everyone is a religious fanatic now. Its seemed pretty clear that she used to go to school and learn math. Its not from the book, but it fits into the universe perfectly and foreshadows what the Foundation is going to do to control their first little empire We already knew all that from earlier episodes. It felt like a waste of time and kind of insulting to go and rehash it so… bluntly? Victis fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 23:58
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"Insulting"? lol
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Oct 16, 2021 00:04
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Victis posted:We already knew all that from earlier episodes. It felt like a waste of time and kind of insulting to go and rehash it so… bluntly? The impression I got from earlier episodes was "primitive waterworld" not "post-apocalyptic waterworld destroyed by their own hubris". I can see where they are going with it, it doesn't feel pointless to me it feels like foreshadowing. 
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Oct 16, 2021 00:07
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:"Insulting"? lol Are you unfamiliar with the concept of insulting your audience lol
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Oct 16, 2021 00:14
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Rutibex posted:The impression I got from earlier episodes was "primitive waterworld" not "post-apocalyptic waterworld destroyed by their own hubris". I can see where they are going with it, it doesn't feel pointless to me it feels like foreshadowing. Same, I'd actually not really gotten that the seas were rising from the first episode. I thought they just had a culture that lived in those weird elevated huts because of tradition.
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Oct 16, 2021 00:16
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:In the books the Second Foundation is set up as the "opposite" of the First Foundation, in the sense that their power and influence are entirely based on telepathy and mind-manipulation, rather than physical science. And we have seen absolutely nothing like that in the show so far. Well, there's those weird premonitions etc Salvor Hardin's been having, but that doesn't fit in with anything, book or adaption, yet.
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Oct 16, 2021 00:21
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Gaal has kind of had premonitions also.
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Oct 16, 2021 00:24
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:In the books the Second Foundation is set up as the "opposite" of the First Foundation, in the sense that their power and influence are entirely based on telepathy and mind-manipulation, rather than physical science. And we have seen absolutely nothing like that in the show so far. Um, yeah we have. With Gaal in particular. (ep1 and 2 spoilers) Specifically, in the 1st ep as she and Hardin are being escorted across the Imperial grounds she looks up towards the orbital platform and says "something's happening" moments before the explosions. And in the 2nd ep, sh knows something's happening to Hari which is why she runs full tilt to witness Raych stabbing his adoptive dad. There's also an argument that could be made she woke up during the fast travel via singularity because she's a mentalic (Asimov's psychics) and her mind is different enough the normal go-to-sleep stuff doesn't work as well. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 00:39
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Proteus Jones posted:Um, yeah we have. With Gaal in particular. Yeah it feels like they are front loading the second fountain stuff
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Oct 16, 2021 00:41
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books Sensing things just before they happen, or having visions in general like we see with Gaal in this TV show is not what the 2nd Foundation & Mule were doing in the books. i mean, sure but it's in the zone of woo woo psychic nonsense
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Oct 16, 2021 00:44
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droll posted:books Sensing things just before they happen, or having visions in general like we see with Gaal in this TV show is not what the 2nd Foundation & Mule were doing in the books. books and prequel books Right but they started having people with abilities hooking up and having kids so it took a couple of generations...
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Oct 16, 2021 00:48
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droll posted:books Sensing things just before they happen, or having visions in general like we see with Gaal in this TV show is not what the 2nd Foundation & Mule were doing in the books. Oh, I agree with that, but I think we're seeing a foundation(heh) being laid in regards to the more fantastical stuff coming later.
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Oct 16, 2021 00:49
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I'm pretty sure that Gaal is starting the 2nd foundation. She just got picked up by a ship specifically looking for her cryo-pod with a destination to a dark star already set. Seems like the ship was also expecting her boyfriend, but whatever is going on was planned before Hari's death so that's what makes sense to me. Or she could be being sent to the 2nd foundation that is already setup because of her psychohistory and mental skills. Regardless I think we are getting the 2nd foundation this season instead of where it was revealed in the books
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Oct 16, 2021 03:11
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had a great laugh at the epic trigonometry montage. this show rules
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Oct 16, 2021 03:30
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The show is starting to wear on me. I'm going to watch at least all of this season if not more, but it's so languid and melodramatic while also being breathless and stiff, with underwritten characters, terrible dialogue, and really rough pacing. It's pretty as gently caress and fairly fun even when it's bad, but I was definitely hoping for something a little less dumb. Hopefully it's the sort of show that can steadily improve and come into its own over the course of another season. I'm still enjoying it, but it's real janky.
feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 03:45
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Book chat: I remember feeling kind of cheated when I read the books as a kid. We set up this Foundation doing interesting stuff, preserving knowledge, doing science... and then whoops actually they were just a diversion, none of their poo poo matters, the important thing was the secret society of wizards who stuck around on Trantor and are doing the actual work by
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Oct 16, 2021 03:52
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Well, I gave it a shot but I’m out because this show relies too much on the “genius master plan where everything is impossibly planned out even if it looks like a failure” trope which is loving dumb. Mr. “my math only predicts trends not individuals” somehow manages to set in motion a master plan that requires Gale to have been at the wrong place at the wrong time to witness a murder and escape in a lifeboat that looks like it was really meant for Raych, and also requires her to not only be a math prodigy but also an expert space navigator.
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Oct 16, 2021 04:27
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the other problem with the "gaal will set up the second foundation" theory is that second foundation was located on... trantor but again, the show vs the books etc.
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Oct 16, 2021 04:44
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Pham Nuwen posted:Book chat: I remember feeling kind of cheated when I read the books as a kid. We set up this Foundation doing interesting stuff, preserving knowledge, doing science... and then whoops actually they were just a diversion, none of their poo poo matters, the important thing was the secret society of wizards who stuck around on Trantor and are doing the actual work by More book chat: That's Hardin's big argument with the Encyclopedists. They very explicitly are NOT doing any science. Their idea of "science" is reading what other people read about 5000 years previously and weighing which author sounds more right. It's a condemnation of the empire and why the empire was dying.
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Oct 16, 2021 04:52
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Boris Galerkin posted:Well, I gave it a shot but I’m out because this show relies too much on the “genius master plan where everything is impossibly planned out even if it looks like a failure” trope which is loving dumb. how do people like you enjoy anything? but a possible explanation: The master plan was constructed as a solution for a macro event, so it can't specify the micro stuff but depending on exactly how the solution is formulated it's possible that he knew she only had to be on the ship, and then the rest is obfuscated. So to anyone reading the solution you'd know she had to be on the ship and that's it, it wouldn't matter that things later seem to go awry, on the human level of understanding her being on the ship was the only important part. The escape pod and the rest is part of the micro level.
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Oct 16, 2021 04:58
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Regarde Aduck posted:how do people like you enjoy anything? Welcome to TV/IV. But if the lifeboat was meant for Raych and he didn't make it then obviously the plan didn't work? Which is the opposite of what you are complaining about? And space navigation is math? I get the feeling in this forum a lot that a poster just doesn't like/click with something, which is perfectly fine, but then are unable to articulate why that is and it ends up sounding like a high school freshmen's English critique report. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 05:07
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Regarde Aduck posted:how do people like you enjoy anything? That runs counter to the whole thing about Psychohistory. It shouldn't matter if they took the escape pod or not. Individuals shouldn't matter. So a story where the plan falls apart if Gaal turns left instead of right, isn't really following the entire "thing" about psychohistory.
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Oct 16, 2021 05:11
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Individual actions clearly do matter for psychohistory, since they are how the prophecies get realized. It's just that psychohistory cannot predict them, and doesn't have to because it's about the big picture. The things it prophesizes come true one way or another. If it weren't for the Space Bridge getting blown the gently caress up, it may have been some other event, such as nukes getting denotated at major population centers across the planet. This means that the terrorists' bombs malfunctioning and failing to explode doesn't derail the Seldon Plan, just like Gale turning left instead of right wouldn't have. Thorn Wishes Talon fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 05:51
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Individual actions clearly do matter for psychohistory, since they are how the prophecies get realized. It's just that psychohistory cannot predict them, and doesn't have to because it's about the big picture. The things it prophesizes come true one way or another. This is true, but the book fucks this up by making the vault open at specific times rather than based on conditions. In such a scenario the specific date a crisis is resolved would be unpredictable. Also another important point is, at least in the books, everything psychohistory predicts has probabilities and is not absolute. So it is possible for an individual action to gently caress the whole thing up in some way but not likely.
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Oct 16, 2021 06:00
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D-Pad posted:This is true, but the book fucks this up by making the vault open at specific times rather than based on conditions. In such a scenario the specific date a crisis is resolved would be unpredictable. There are times in the books when the vault opens months after the events that were discussed. And times it happened off screen. And generally tends to be further off the further along the plan is. Actually the vault being TOO accurate is what tips some members of the foundation off that the second foundation was not actually destroyed back in Arkady's time, because it wasn't a natural progression
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Oct 16, 2021 06:07
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Psycohistory is a flawed concept, it's meant to be. That's Asimovs thing, he takes a sci fi concept and writes short stories where he figures out the cracks in the concept.
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Oct 16, 2021 06:17
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Rutibex posted:I love the books and I loved this episode. They are taking everything off the rails and its just fantastic. Same, I love how it’s different enough from the books that even having re-read them the week before the first episode, it still manages to surprise me.
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Oct 16, 2021 07:13
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Nitrousoxide posted:Same, I guess I don't see how it matters! At least so far, maybe that'll change?
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Oct 16, 2021 08:06
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I'm enjoying this show a lot but the Terminus settlement plot just isn't grabbing me, the other 2 plot lines are great, I like Kilika planet and everything about the empire or Gaal doing the Naomi thing on the ship.
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Oct 16, 2021 09:28
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I am just looking forward to the 2-hour fan edit of the Rise and Fall of the Lee Pace Empire once season one is over.
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Oct 16, 2021 10:10
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:I'm enjoying this show a lot but the Terminus settlement plot just isn't grabbing me, the other 2 plot lines are great, I like Kilika planet and everything about the empire or Gaal doing the Naomi thing on the ship. Agreed that Terminus just isn't compelling to me at all. If they were showing me a bunch of well-meaning scientists trying to make a utopia based on rationality but failing because they're too human or something, I could see myself getting into it. But it's just an ultra-generic space colony focusing on a dull character. And I can find nothing to like about the terrorist revenge story. I like Gaal's story moving forward, but found her backstory this week to be a chore. What was I supposed to get out of it that I didn't already get in the first episode? Empire is definitely the standout storyline to me and feels like it captures the scope out of this show that I want. Though I wish we were seeing it collapse over far more generations. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 11:21
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Rutibex posted:Psycohistory is a flawed concept, it's meant to be. That's Asimovs thing, he takes a sci fi concept and writes short stories where he figures out the cracks in the concept. I think you’re on to something here. To reflect Asimov’s approach, this should be a series of short, half episode stories, each tackling a unique problem under an overarching theme, with key characters either not related to each other at all, or at least very loosely. We have the multiple storylines and time hopping but nothing on the scale seen in the books.
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Oct 16, 2021 11:21
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Yeah, I still like the Empire/Trantor plot but man anything on Terminus just makes me want to turn this show off. The whole invasion plot line relied way, way too much on the puppet master trope. I can sorta excuse psychohistory (despite even the books playing rather fast and loose with its rules), but the space terrorist plan was a bit much.
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Oct 16, 2021 11:46
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droll posted:books Sensing things just before they happen, or having visions in general like we see with Gaal in this TV show is not what the 2nd Foundation & Mule were doing in the books. just posting to note that edit is not quote, and the bolded bit was meant to be me responding to droll rather than them having a sudden drastic change of heart mid post
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Oct 16, 2021 11:50
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feedmyleg posted:Empire is definitely the standout storyline to me and feels like it captures the scope out of this show that I want. Though I wish we were seeing it collapse over far more generations. Yeah, the fact that they made collapse immediate and obvious with the star bridge terrorist attack in the first episode annoyed me a little bit, because, at least as far as concerns me (I'll spoiler this just in case, but it's not really a spoiler, just how Trantor/the Empire is presented in the first book) at the time Hari Seldon makes his prediction/prophecy/calculation that the Empire will fall and Trantor be destroyed in 500 years that decline and fall is not yet really apparent at all to anyone, Trantor very much still seems to be doing fine, even pretty great, and the Empire appears as strong as ever. What signs of decline there are are pretty slightm such as stagnation of science and modes of thinking and discourse and direct control giving way to indirect/independent rule on the extreme periphery (of an empire consisting of 25 million settled worlds). And that's part of what makes Hari Seldon appeara so suspect, not that he's stating something that's obvious to all who will just open their eyes, but that he's predicting, and preparing for, the fall of a civilization long before it's begun to be obvious that this is what's going to happen, which makes people anxious, uncomfortable and angry.
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Oct 16, 2021 13:25
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Loving this episode, it makes so much more sense that Gaal’s place is earth + twenty years post apocalypse - even if it’s decaying it’s a galactic empire with free trade, naturally primitivist waterworld just wouldn’t work especially if you need poo poo that isn’t water-based like trees to make huts from. It’s an awesome bit of writing too, you could see how useful and valuable a social binding force religion can be in harsh post-apocalypses. See also: Bajor, and also maybe the next season of Foundation. It’s wonderful having beautiful space sci-fi with this level of world building. It’s really discovered the right way to treat golden age sci fi- keep the huge ideas and the scope, and make it bigger, show don’t tell, introduce proper characters and tie them directly to the huge story to keep them essential and meaningful.
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Oct 16, 2021 13:45
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, the fact that they made collapse immediate and obvious with the star bridge terrorist attack in the first episode annoyed me a little bit, because, at least as far as concerns me (I'll spoiler this just in case, but it's not really a spoiler, just how Trantor/the Empire is presented in the first book) at the time Hari Seldon makes his prediction/prophecy/calculation that the Empire will fall and Trantor be destroyed in 500 years that decline and fall is not yet really apparent at all to anyone, Trantor very much still seems to be doing fine, even pretty great, and the Empire appears as strong as ever. What signs of decline there are are pretty slightm such as stagnation of science and modes of thinking and discourse and direct control giving way to indirect/independent rule on the extreme periphery (of an empire consisting of 25 million settled worlds). And that's part of what makes Hari Seldon appeara so suspect, not that he's stating something that's obvious to all who will just open their eyes, but that he's predicting, and preparing for, the fall of a civilization long before it's begun to be obvious that this is what's going to happen, which makes people anxious, uncomfortable and angry. I'm pretty sure he said explicitly what you've spoilered here anyway but just to be sure. They definitely feel like they're making the fall seem soon!
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Oct 16, 2021 13:50
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