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Bruceski posted:I thought Zenos stopped the rebellion and left Yotsuyu to pick up the pieces? The whole point was he was administrating over two distant regions and stretched thin when matters required his personal attention.
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Oct 17, 2021 07:50
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Nessus posted:I thought he deliberately put Yotsuyu in charge of Doma in order to see if femdomocracy would produce exciting sport for him to hunt. This is it. He thought such terrible conditions would bring rise to a hero that would be able to challenge them.
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Oct 17, 2021 07:51
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:This is it. He thought such terrible conditions would bring rise to a hero that would be able to challenge them.
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Oct 17, 2021 07:59
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:This is it. He thought such terrible conditions would bring rise to a hero that would be able to challenge them. Imagine being promoted not just out of what you can do well, but specifically because you'd be bad at your new job. And not even to an end that actually worked out! Not only did the WoL come from abroad, but Hien specifically became a capable leader because he wasn't there to live under how poo poo a job she was doing.
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Oct 17, 2021 08:25
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Nessus posted:I thought he deliberately put Yotsuyu in charge of Doma in order to see if femdomocracy would produce exciting sport for him to hunt. femdomcracy
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Oct 17, 2021 08:43
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Cleretic posted:Imagine being promoted not just out of what you can do well, but specifically because you'd be bad at your new job. Kind of, Zenos expected two potential outcomes and both would satisfy him. On a personal level, her mistreatment of the Doma leading to a rebellion with a strong beast for him to hunt would satisfy, on an impersonal/imperial level her mistreatment would grind their national spirit to dust and leave the incapable of rebellion which would also satisfy him. I think post death and resurrection he focuses on the hunt to the exclusion of all else because in part he's lost all interest in everything else after meeting his best friend. Remember he's described as an excellent battlefield tactician in his conquests as well as a somewhat cunning if cruel ruler. But he throws that aside when he has someone or something to hunt because whilst he's good at those things he doesn't care about them more than he cares about personal strength and satisfaction especially now that he's actually found what he wanted in his beast (the WoL).
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Oct 17, 2021 09:02
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Moofia Boss Val posted:Or how in ARR and HW, people who want to go to war with Garlemald are treated as warmongers and should be stopped, but then from Stormblood marching on Garlemald is treated as the righteous thing to do and people who want to hold back are treated as incapable of doing what needs to be done. And so on. I thought this was one of the most interesting turns the story made, personally. No one was willing to invade Garlean-occupied Ala Mhigo; even Raubahn, who dreamed of liberating the country, was hesitant. The alliance needed to be forced into it, and as morally reprehensible as Ilberd's plan was... it worked. Ala Mhigo was ultimately liberated, and his actions are what got the ball rolling. There were doubtlessly far less tragic ways to spark off the revolution, but Ilberd took action when nobody else was willing to - not even the WoL.
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Oct 17, 2021 09:41
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Pigbuster posted:I thought this was one of the most interesting turns the story made, personally. No one was willing to invade Garlean-occupied Ala Mhigo; even Raubahn, who dreamed of liberating the country, was hesitant. The alliance needed to be forced into it, and as morally reprehensible as Ilberd's plan was... it worked. Ala Mhigo was ultimately liberated, and his actions are what got the ball rolling. There were doubtlessly far less tragic ways to spark off the revolution, but Ilberd took action when nobody else was willing to - not even the WoL. Much like Ysayle, who may have been misguided in her motivations, but was ultimately correct about the whole Dragonsong war far before anyone else was. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 10:04
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Ilberd's true plan was foiled by Papalymo, and then Omega. Shinryu was contained, and its presence is what allowed the Eorzean alliance to gain a foothold.
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Oct 17, 2021 12:51
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His true plan was to force the Alliance into action. Whether or not Shinryu destroyed everything was kind of secondary, its very presence and its threat to the Garleans was enough. edit: Actually I'm not so sure now. I swore he said something to that effect somewhere, but it wasn't when he was dying so I dunno. It is fair to say his primary wish was to liberate Ala Mhigo and his actions caused that, even if it wasn't with a dragon devastation montage set to a kickin' rad guitar solo.thetoughestbean posted:femdomcracy https://twitter.com/shibakazs/status/1423278267566460928/photo/1 TGLT fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 15:40
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TGLT posted:His true plan was to force the Alliance into action. Whether or not Shinryu destroyed everything was kind of secondary, its very presence and its threat to the Garleans was enough. edit: Actually I'm not so sure now. I swore he said something to that effect somewhere, but it wasn't when he was dying so I dunno. It is fair to say his primary wish was to liberate Ala Mhigo and his actions caused that, even if it wasn't with a dragon devastation montage set to a kickin' rad guitar solo. No it wasn’t. That was his recruitment message, but he hated Ala Mhigo for giving up the fight, and hated the alliance for not trying to liberate Ala Mhigo. He wanted both destroyed and used the calamity as inspiration.
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Oct 17, 2021 16:41
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:No it wasn’t. That was his recruitment message, but he hated Ala Mhigo for giving up the fight, and hated the alliance for not trying to liberate Ala Mhigo. He wanted both destroyed and used the calamity as inspiration.  You're mistaking his bitterness over feeling abandoned with a change in motivation. He still wants to liberate Ala Mhigo and he's pissed that - to him - he seems like the only one willing to do what it takes to do it. It's why he's so angry with Raubahn. edit: There's a line Raubahn says, I think either at the end of 3.5 or the start of Stormblood, that really only works with the understanding that Ilberd - for all his faults - genuinely wanted what he fought for. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 17:07
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TGLT posted:
No he doesn't. You're misunderstanding what he means there. He is saying "I am going to kill all of them and then use their power to 'liberate' the homeland in fire and blood." He's gone from wanting to free the homeland to wanting to kill both the Garleans and his own kinsmen. He went from wanting to free his country to wanting to slaughter his enemies real or perceived. His image for the Primal was the Dreadwyrm Bahamut who anyone from Eorzea is going to view as a WMD that ravages the land. This is why Lunar Bahamut showing up freaked people out so much even though he was owned relatively easily because Bahamut is synonymous with rampant horrifying destruction. He wasn't Evil With An E to begin wtih, he was a broken desperate man who was pushed to the absolute edge and decided on a primal summoning regardless of the cost, y'know, just like the beast tribes. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 17:10
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There's really nothing there about him wanting to kill his own kinsmen though. Like he's super explicit in how angry he is with his fellow Ala Mhigans around Ul'dah for their lack of fervor but he's still committed to his cause. He'll kill everyone if that's what it takes but there's no quotation marks around liberation for him. He's Raubahn's bitter and angry reflection. It's why this line works despite what Ilberd does on his way out. Shinryu also isn't Bahamut - it's a Doman myth. There's at least one (culinarian) quest going into some of the cultural cross pollination between Doma and Ala Mhigo. He's invoking the calamity to say he's going to summon something even worse than Bahamut because when Alphinaud talks about the limitations of primals, Ilberd is only thinking about their ability to destroy things. Bahamut got contained. He thinks he can summon something that no one can stop using the eyes and human sacrifice. If he had actually gotten everything he wanted and Shinryu was let loose there's a pretty decent chance it would have left nothing behind sure, but that's like everyone who summons a primal. They think they get one thing and it's always another.
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Oct 17, 2021 17:32
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It's only called Shinryu because the Doman agents on site thought it lined up with their mythological beast. The name doesn't matter for the intent. Everyone thought he was going to summon Rhalgr, the Destroyer, to liberate the country. He could have. But he specifically chose a tool of hate and destruction, instead of something created to lead the Ala Mhigans to victory. He wanted another calamity, and Ala Mhigo wouldn't have been spared.
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Oct 17, 2021 17:41
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TGLT posted:There's really nothing there about him wanting to kill his own kinsmen though. Like he's super explicit in how angry he is with his fellow Ala Mhigans around Ul'dah for their lack of fervor but he's still committed to his cause. He'll kill everyone if that's what it takes but there's no quotation marks around liberation for him. He's Raubahn's bitter and angry reflection. It's why this line works despite what Ilberd does on his way out. The nature of what you want affects what you get though. That's why Ramuh can be reasoned with. I don't know if Ilberd explicitly wants to destroy Ala Mhigo, but I think his bitterness towards all the people who will no longer rise up to save it goes so deep that in his true heart he no longer cares whether the people of Ala Mhigo are free, so long as his enemies are punished.
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Oct 17, 2021 17:42
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I don't think Ga Bu wanted to kill the Warrior of Light. You can influence primals, but they're pretty consistently the worst manifestation of what their summoners want - like with Tiamat and Bahamut. Ilberd makes it very clear he thinks violent action alone is what it will take to accomplish his objective, and sacrificing a ton of his countrymen to Shinryu is the final manifestation of that yeah, but his whole character arc during 3.x - from confronting Raubahn about abandoning the fight to Raubahn acknowledging his wishes at the very end - is about his obsession with liberating his homeland. To the point he no longer thinks of his fellow Ala Mhigans as anything more than resources to accomplish that goal, sure. He's a foil for the other Ala Mhigans revolutionaries in Stormblood - Raubahn and Lyse. Conrad too, I suppose, in that Conrad is on the verge of surrendering the fight as he cares more about his people than an abstract Ala Mhigo whereas Ilberd would clearly rather die than do that. edit: Also now I remember why I initially thought his primary plan was to drag the Alliance into conflict with the Garleans, and that's because that was the whole point of them all running around in stolen uniforms. A false flag to pin the assault on Baelsar's wall and the subsequent primal summoning on the Eorzean Alliance, which would inevitably put the two back into a state of open war. TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 17:51
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i kinda figured the doman thing was just a localization excuse cause in japanese calling a primal dragon shinryu would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, though i haven't actually checked
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Oct 17, 2021 18:02
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Shinryu was an excuse to have Omega vs Shinryu.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:04
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I mean yeah the reality is it's Shinryu because the designers wanted to have the Shinryu/Omega callback and everything else is a lore justification for him summoning a big legless dragon.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:05
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Shinryu has legs, just also has a long body
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Oct 17, 2021 18:06
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Argas posted:Shinryu has legs, just also has a long body It’s most notable in Extreme Shinryu thanks to the final phase. But to be honest it’s a pretty visually awful phase because Shinryu is just too drat big to fight his feet/body and have it feel okay visually .
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Oct 17, 2021 18:08
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petcarcharodon posted:i kinda figured the doman thing was just a localization excuse cause in japanese calling a primal dragon shinryu would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, though i haven't actually checked As far as I'm aware pretty much all the proper nouns in Eorzea are the same in the Japanese and English clients, and none of them sound much like Japanese, so it's unlikely the Eorzeans would have called something Shinryu themselves.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:09
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Argas posted:Shinryu has legs, just also has a long body  also are those really legs on ff14 shinryu, really, i mean really, does ff14 shinryu have legs really for real
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Oct 17, 2021 18:12
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Oct 17, 2021 18:15
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not my fault I forgot they gave the dragon vestigial feet with weird bone protrusions attached
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Oct 17, 2021 18:21
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strong Daily Dinosaur Comics energy from that picture
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Oct 17, 2021 18:25
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Ah, I see, old Shinryu was a wyrm, and new Shinryu is a wyvern.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:28
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There are front legs, too, they just blend in. Look under Shinryu's chin for his left foreleg, and you can make out the right one if you look in the correct spot.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:33
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Yup. He's such a busy mess lol. Usually poorly lit too
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Oct 17, 2021 18:34
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Begemot posted:Ah, I see, old Shinryu was a wyrm, and new Shinryu is a y-burn.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:19
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Those weird spiked breastbone projections look so ungainly and non-aerodynamic
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Oct 17, 2021 21:22
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Guivre
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Oct 17, 2021 22:33
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The in-universe reason we got Shinryu is because Ilberd wasn't all that creative. He wanted a primal to wreck up the place, but didn't really care for a specific one. He was summoning using dragon's eyes, though, so... sure, screw it, dragon, why not! Its weird design might actually be in part due to that; he's a dragon as drawn by someone who doesn't really know what a dragon looks like. "So it's mostly snake-like, and there's wings, and... there's limbs, I guess? Somewhere? They're not, like, big limbs, right? Do dragons have hair?"
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Oct 17, 2021 23:38
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Cleretic posted:The in-universe reason we got Shinryu is because Ilberd wasn't all that creative. He wanted a primal to wreck up the place, but didn't really care for a specific one. He was summoning using dragon's eyes, though, so... sure, screw it, dragon, why not! yea I think that is the vibe they were going for, a general kinda 'this guy doesn't really give a poo poo, he's maybe heard of some dragons but doesn't really think too hard about them beyond them being massive and destructive forces'
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Oct 17, 2021 23:43
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He literally witnessed the calamity, the same calamity that took his family. His idea of the end of a world is a dragon. That's why Shinryu is a dragon.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:50
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https://twitter.com/balphinaud/status/1449781810875957248?s=21
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Oct 18, 2021 00:38
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'we're the parents now'
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Oct 18, 2021 00:51
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Incidentally, a neat thing I learned yesterday: When Cyella is talking to us about Mitron, the French script is the only language that uses a gender--and it uses feminine pronouns. When asked about it, the French localization confirmed it wasn't a mistake. Given the name 'Artemis' and the overall feminine design of Eden's Promise, it adds to some very loud subtext about Mitron.
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Oct 18, 2021 01:55
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Kind of what I believed where gender might either be fluid or non-existent for the ancients. After all they could shape their body at will, they could always look how they wanted. Still I like that that's confirmed and would've enjoyed if it was a bit louder. Not that I mind the current vibe of lesbian rescues bi woman from clingy ex, but I think it feels more equal if Mitron is also a woman.
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Oct 18, 2021 02:21
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