(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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sullat posted:Yeah, someone's going to have to probate all those wills, realtor all those houses, adjust all those insurance claims, file all those death certificates. Plenty of construction project and fewer people to pass that work off to.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:05
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:26 |
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De Guzman made a statement earlier criticizing the failures of the Cory Aquino administration in really reforming the nation after Marcos's ouster, and also the rank corruption of Gloria Arroyo, and now people are calling him sexist because why is he only ever attacking the WOMEN PRESIDENTS while also running a candidacy to the left of YET ANOTHER WOMAN. loving goddamn I hate idpol.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:07
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Ah quote:This is a part of General Secretary Xi Jinping's speech at the 10th meeting of the Central Committee of Finance and Economics on August 17, 2021. Can't tell if that asterisk applied to just the title or the whole article.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:10
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Judakel posted:Plenty of construction project and fewer people to pass that work off to. there’s also a need for millions of teachers and healthcare workers and people to clean… there’s such a mind boggling amount of work to do in this country that doesn’t because it might cost a billionaire a nickel
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Oct 17, 2021 18:18
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Centrist Committee posted:there’s also a need for millions of teachers and healthcare workers and people to clean… there’s such a mind boggling amount of work to do in this country that doesn’t because it might cost a billionaire a nickel I meant the world. Socialism will probably never come to America and it will die. Such is life.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:20
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I don't really get how enforcing the proliferation of pointless make work jobs is somehow better than just paying people to do whatever the gently caress they want. Under capitalism the vast majority of jobs are already totally pointless and I thought getting away from the "work or starve" model is half the point of a socialist state. It isn't like society is going to suffer from the abundance of artists caused by not requiring people to do stupid poo poo to get money for food.
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Oct 17, 2021 19:19
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the "work or starve" model is just normal life, except it has been papered over by more-or-less abundance in the first world one goal of a communist state would presumably be to lower the requirements of the "work" part using technology and sane management (for instance, instead of 10 people working 40-50 hour weeks it's 20 people working 20-25 hour weeks) if you want to be an artist you can be one in your free time, after you do whatever it is that needs to be done
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Oct 17, 2021 19:52
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bad art is suffering. we must control the number of artists
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Oct 17, 2021 19:54
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Doctor Jeep posted:the "work or starve" model is just normal life,
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Oct 17, 2021 19:58
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lol
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Oct 17, 2021 19:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I don't really get how enforcing the proliferation of pointless make work jobs is somehow better than just paying people to do whatever the gently caress they want. Under capitalism the vast majority of jobs are already totally pointless and I thought getting away from the "work or starve" model is half the point of a socialist state. the soviet make-work system was borne out of necessity by the accumulated deficiencies from trying to jury rig markets from centralized economic mechanisms, particularly in the 80s. It was a bullshit job system, yes; still it was one that took far less time and afforded anyone with a much greater benefit (housing, healthcare, education, transportation, etc) it wasn't a deliberate bad idea but more a consequence from other bad ideas about breaking with planning and economic control
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Oct 17, 2021 20:02
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It existed before then, a lot of was simply many urban areas had surplus workers for a multitude of reasons that central planning couldn’t solve through industrial production. Also, even if there was a future where robotics could handle most material aspect, social geared and creative work involving humans would still have value. (And I do think work has value beyond the productive aspect of it. At the day, humans do need somewhere to be, hopefully you could find actually useful jobs for them. It was also extremely difficult to get fired during the Soviet Union, especially at a low level.)
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Oct 17, 2021 20:19
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If one worker can farm 10,000 hectares of wheat and one worker can oversee the machine that turns it into bread there is no need to force 5,000 workers to be greeters at the bread store. if no they won't be loving greeters, there's probably a bunch of other things that need doing that either aren't being done or are being done by overworked people who could use lower workig hours
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Oct 17, 2021 20:32
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Oct 17, 2021 20:37
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Divide the working day until 5000 units of time so we finally achieve the 10 minute work week.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:38
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my favorite ship
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Oct 17, 2021 20:38
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Doctor Jeep posted:if Eliminating the parasitic capatlist class does little to help the worker if what you replace it with is a bureaucrat class that simply enforces the same pointless toil, now for the service of a spreadsheet rather than a millionaire. If there is a shortage of necessary resources then obviously labor is necessary, and if the shortage is severe then even compulsory labor may be warranted. But if there is no shortage then labor simply for the sake of labor is a pointless and inefficient use if everyone's time and energy. Edit: I guess the fundamental disagreement here is that unlike Ardennes, I don't believe that work has a value beyond what it produces (material, intellectual, emotional, or spiritual products). Although I'm happy to engage in some self education if anyone has some recommended reading Rent-A-Cop has issued a correction as of 20:49 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 20:42
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also like maybe i just work at a lovely factory but there are actually still people required to make things and there still will be for at least the foreseeable future e: and there'd be more people required to work if people didn't have to work huge overtime
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Oct 17, 2021 20:43
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Some drastic overestimation of how much work actually needs to be done ITT. The vast, vast, vast majority of jobs are pointless bullshit or created out of the necessity of doing things in dumb gently caress capitalist ways (so pointless bullshit). There's no way you can have something 'useful' for every single person to do if you think about it for even five seconds. Yes, even if everyone is doing an 8 hour work week you'll still have billions of people with nothing useful to do and that's fine.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If there are things that need doing then that isn't make-work, it's just work. And the ethical way to make sure those things get done is to offer something attractive in exchange for doing them. There appears to be a disconnect here. Many would call "check the boilers" a bullshit make-work job. This work may not be terribly taxing on the individual, but it helps the residents of the buildings maintain comfort and peace of mind. So is it really make-work? A landlord/capitalist may be happy to run things to the point of failure to eek out extra margin, which saves a ton on preventative labor.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:56
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It took lots of work for China to end extreme poverty and lots more is required to achieve and maintain a moderately prosperous society. This is all before considering the work required to maintain livable areas and transition away from carbon energy during climate change.
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Oct 17, 2021 21:00
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Corky Romanovsky posted:There appears to be a disconnect here.
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Oct 17, 2021 21:05
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Preventative maintenance of residential heating is, at least in my opinion, obviously productive work. Having a thousand workers each check one boiler a month is inefficient, but it's not exactly taxing so it's of little concern. Having a thousand workers each state intently at a boiler for 8 hours a day of compulsory labor is just a dumb loving waste of time, that now must be overseen by an army of parasitic bosses who merely compound the pointless inefficiency of the whole endeavor. did the latter thing ever happen or are we arguing about hypotheticals the end of the USSR was not because they were paying people to do "pointless" work. most of the Chinese economy is still based around profit.
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Oct 17, 2021 21:10
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It's also not clear why this needs to be a job that somebody is assigned rather than an activity organized by the tenants of the building. It doesn't especially offend me, but I think the point is that if you're making decisions organized, not around the most efficient way to do things, but around making sure as many people have jobs as possible, we should ask if that's a worthwhile goal. As someone who loves my work but hates my job, I imagine that there are many socially productive things that people would be doing with their time if left to their own devices, even if they don't have a complete overlap with the things society needs to function. Spreading the undesirable-but-necessary work over a larger group of people to make sure nobody gets stuck with a full 40 hour workweek makes sense, but once your assigned tasks hit a certain level of granularity you've gotta ask like "couldn't the people who live here set up a chore wheel or some poo poo?"
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Oct 17, 2021 21:16
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IMO there is already technology exist on earth right now that let human being work less and devote at least half of their time on leisure or creativities.....if the earth is a single unified government and rules are set by one government. All you need to do is make people spend about 20 hours a week working on either agriculture or other essential works (infrastructure of support agriculture or health care), everything else, you can make people work in their own free time. Like writing entertaining content to entertain other people, do you really need professional writers to do that? No you loving don't, anybody can make entertaining content to entertain each other, like you are doing now on this thread. Most of the service works are not "essential", you should get your 2000 cal/day food ration from your united ration depot and cook your own loving food and feed yourself.. But the world is not run by a single unified government but by greedy capitalists jeff loving bezos who just want to make more $$$$$ with their $$$, so everybody has to work 40 loving hours a week. stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 21:23 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 21:20
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Preventative maintenance of residential heating is, at least in my opinion, obviously productive work. Having a thousand workers each check one boiler a month is inefficient, but it's not exactly taxing so it's of little concern. Having a thousand workers each stare intently at a boiler for 8 hours a day of compulsory labor is just a dumb loving waste of time, that now must be overseen by an army of parasitic bosses who merely compound the pointless inefficiency of the whole endeavor. Everyone working together to make a better future. Everyone doing their part. You're missing the point this is a group cohesion thing not an efficiency thing. You want everyone to have a part no matter how small or inefficient it maybe and everyone to see everyone else also working for the same thing.
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Oct 17, 2021 21:34
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axelord posted:Everyone working together to make a better future. Everyone doing their part. My point isn't that we should necessarily strive for the minimum amount of employment, but rather that employment by coercion is stupid if it produces no productive benefits. People can achieve group cohesion through voluntary work, and I'd argue it actually works much better that way.
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Oct 17, 2021 22:04
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Atrocious Joe posted:did the latter thing ever happen or are we arguing about hypotheticals yea I'm not sure what this argument has become at this point. Like, yea I'd agree if the state is paying fifty guys to watch the same boiler I think we're in a valid place to ask if those guys couldn't be better served just going home or whatever but...where is anyone saying that's the ideal state??? Are we just confusing 'there's nothing wrong with people doing work that's more maintenance and upkeep than active production, they all play a role in keeping things going well even if that means the maintenance guy may spend a lot of his shift just chilling and waiting to be needed' with 'I want a FLEET of maintenance guys all staring at the same factory line ready to fuckin dogpile the first hitch that forms.'
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Oct 17, 2021 22:19
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From what I remember, jobs in the USSR were easy to come by, but most didn't pay very well. Healthcare, utilities, education, and rent were free, so the money was mostly there for 'luxuries'. Compared to the villages my grandparents were born into this was a major step up, but the living standards were much lower than what most of you experienced in the west. To 'get ahead' you could land a desirable job, like being a scientist, raking military officer, doctor, manager in an industry, etc. These people had better pay and higher pensions when they retired and competition was high. You had to be smart, go to a good school, or know somebody. Others started some sort of side business- selling vegetables from their garden, knitting and selling garments, fixing people's appliances, coding video games, etc. There was a huge mom and pop industry for drat near everything (I miss this part the most, it has been all but entirely stamped out by big business over the last decade). For those with unskilled labor, it was not uncommon to have several jobs. Those that were lazy or did the mental arithmetic of how little they would be paid vs the amount of time they had to do it would either live with relatives, claim disability, or find a job that let them slack off. The big thing about all this is that Russia has always had an underground economy, even during Tsarist times. There was a high level of corruption everywhere as it was relatively easy to bribe your way into something. We even have a word for this in our language (blat, not be confused with blyat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_(favors)). So say you wanted a nice job that paid a lot, if you had the connections you could pull strings to get you there in return for a favor. Or if you didn't know the person you might just bribe them with actual money. People who used favors to get somewhere were called "blatnoy" basically a word to denote they got there not through the system (the Russian language is very rich like this). There was always a shortage of desirable housing, datchas, consumer goods etc. So this was a big part of why you wanted that extra money. Instead of waiting 10 years to get a datcha you and your friends might pool money together and bribe somebody to get you one in a few years, closer to your city, oh and how convenient your friends also got plots of land there too... I never really liked this and it always frustrated me because in penetrated the system on every level. Again, it existed even before the USSR, but here it found an easier system to weave into. One thing that's nice about the 'new' Russia is that this level of corruption doesn't exist anymore. There is the more familiar western networking, old boys clubs, donations, business deals etc. BULBASAUR has issued a correction as of 22:27 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 22:24
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sexpig by night posted:yea I'm not sure what this argument has become at this point. So to use your example I have no problem with the state hiring n+1 maintenance guys so long as the work is voluntary and useful to some degree. Rent-A-Cop has issued a correction as of 22:34 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 22:30
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Slavvy posted:Some drastic overestimation of how much work actually needs to be done ITT. The fact that bullshit jobs are common doesn't mean there aren't useful jobs to do, things-not-considered-as-jobs that are nonetheless work, or most importantly work which is a bullshit job under the capitalist model because of specific, unnecessary bullshit duties; just that these categories are ignored as less profitable. stephenthinkpad posted:...Most of the service works are not "essential", you should get your 2000 cal/day food ration from your united ration depot and cook your own loving food and feed yourself.. On those lines, childcare, eldercare, and cleaning are also wildly understaffed-on-paper fields where the dispersed nature that lets them be taken off the books as "jobs" and undercompensated also has the pernicious effect of reducing efficiency gains made possible by industrialization; being forced i.e. to do someone's laundry under capitalism is usually bullshit but a central laundry can cover dozens of families in the same 8 hours of work that covers four households individually. Nominally an "increase" in jobs for a rational system even though it results in less labor done. As for the first, while there are obvious long-term labor savings once our twine-and-duct-tape approach to investment is replaced, there's a hell of a lot of interim work to be done getting there and also a lot of untracked/uncompensated labor that will transform into officially a job. Just in terms of, say, transportation in the US, rail commutes will need mass amounts of track laid and eventually result in tracked train crews and station staff replacing untracked commutes; the replacement of asphalt with more durable concrete and snow crews with heating-plant-driven removal will take millions of workers years even though they result in smaller highway departments in the end; and a revival of commercial rather than just industrial rail shipping won't so much replace the trucker as convert them to more numerous/shorter working days and more ecological stevedores and local couriers.
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Oct 17, 2021 22:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:For my part it's whether work should be a requirement for recieving state benefits (housing, food, healthcare, basic living allowance, etc), and my position is that it should not be because there is no value to compulsory non-productive work. Going back to the Soviet Union, there are sure cases where people were doing non-productive work but ultimately there was usually some marginal point to it. It may not have been a job that would have existed in the West, but there was some use for it. On a more personal level, I am more in favor of work than against it. You can take it to an extreme (5000 guys working 90 works looking at a boiler etc), but I would much rather have guys working 20 hours a week checking boilers (ie doing something marginally useful) than just have them stay home. There is also just how socialist states function where the assumption is "we" ie the workers are all in this together and part of that is including as many people as reasonably possible. Yes, you can go to extremes, but I do think it is socially more healthy and more efficient than something like a UBI system. Admittedly, there is a sacrifice of freedom there, you have to be doing something. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:05 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 22:59
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I will say, re UBI, it's a running joke in my industry (which could conceivably expand by two or three orders of magnitude tomorrow without anyone either losing out having a "bullshit" job or benefitting from reduced hours, though I recognize that it's a huge exception) that the hobbyists who exist due to the extreme unviability under capitalism of working on products without a proven market are if anything more productive than the paid workers. But even though the output wouldn't dry up following a shift to a UBI model, I think it's far socially healthier to define their work as a job than a hobby; it removes the potential for developing a conception of "worker" and "leech" classes, and allows standouts to be recognized and encouraged. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 23:09 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 23:06
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I'm fine with people not working getting the same benefits as workers. I truly believe people don't inherently want to 'do nothing' forever and yea maybe that means that UBI goes to some dude crocheting Sonic plushies for etsy rather than really 'doing work' that benefits the state 100% but I'm perfectly morally and economically fine with that. Programs like UBI, healthcare, housing, food, all that poo poo are human rights not just worker's rights, and society as a whole functions best when everyone from the guy running the power plant to Tails Fan 420 selling his stuff to other dorks are taken care of.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:18
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Ardennes posted:
Compulsory labor breeds minimum effort and requires a parasitic manager class to oversee your workers who DGAF and would rather be, painting, gardening, or just jacking off. You end up less efficiency, less quality of work, and less happiness in exchange for what? Rent-A-Cop has issued a correction as of 23:21 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 23:19
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In your example here is this the availability of marginally useful work, or the requirement that marginally useful work be drive in order to survive? Because I think there's a huge difference between a bunch of workers being fairly compensated for a necessary job and this each performing less labor, and a bunch of workers being forced into a job one fairly compensated either would be willing and able to do. yea again I think this conversation is going past people. If the argument is 'everyone at the factory deserves fair compensation and dignity, even the dude who's just kinda watching the furnace to be sure it doesn't get squirrely' I think we all 100% agree there, the issue is the framing of it being somehow required for them to maintain a job to get fairly basic rights like state support because that creates a situation where multiple people are being functionally pressed into doing a job 1 person can, to the benefit only of petty tyrants like managerial class guys.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:23
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sexpig by night posted:I'm fine with people not working getting the same benefits as workers. I truly believe people don't inherently want to 'do nothing' forever and yea maybe that means that UBI goes to some dude crocheting Sonic plushies for etsy rather than really 'doing work' that benefits the state 100% but I'm perfectly morally and economically fine with that. Programs like UBI, healthcare, housing, food, all that poo poo are human rights not just worker's rights, and society as a whole functions best when everyone from the guy running the power plant to Tails Fan 420 selling his stuff to other dorks are taken care of. You are extremely wrong about this. The lack of ability to even imagine a different mindset is part of the problem. Loads of people don't want to do anything and realistically shouldn't have to beyond the extremely minimal contribution needed to keep themselves alive in a centrally planned system. The idea that everyone should be busy doing something all the time is protestant work ethic bullshit that got coopted by capitalists and almost everyone is still brainwashed by it. Ecologically there is an objective need to reduce the amount of activity being done, of any kind; painting sonic figurines still has some kind of environmental cost even if it's just shipping the blue paint or whatever.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:26
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In your example here is this the availability of marginally useful work, or the requirement that marginally useful work be done in order to survive? Because I think there's a huge difference between a bunch of workers being fairly compensated for a necessary job and thus each performing less labor, and a bunch of workers being forced into a job one fairly compensated worker would be willing and able to do. I would say minimum effort is fine as long as at least something is being done, and therefore it is preferable than someone just jacking off etc. Obviously, there is the question of people doing activities (even gardening or being a hobbyist) , but you could argue that may also count. Painting would be considered creative work anyway. However, I do think someone just jacking off/smoking weed/getting drunk isn't a great thing for society. Not that they should starve, but all effort should be given to at least get them to do something marginally useful both for themselves and everyone else. Society exists beyond the frame of capitalism or a protestant work ethic. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:33 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 23:30
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Slavvy posted:You are extremely wrong about this. The lack of ability to even imagine a different mindset is part of the problem. Loads of people don't want to do anything and realistically shouldn't have to beyond the extremely minimal contribution needed to keep themselves alive in a centrally planned system. The idea that everyone should be busy doing something all the time is protestant work ethic bullshit that got coopted by capitalists and almost everyone is still brainwashed by it. Ecologically there is an objective need to reduce the amount of activity being done, of any kind; painting sonic figurines still has some kind of environmental cost even if it's just shipping the blue paint or whatever. people have hobbies, I don't know how to explain this to you. My entire point was I don't care what they're doing, trying to turn it into some weird environmental cost thing doesn't work because just existing has environmental costs too. That's not what this was about. Fine, if Tails Fan 420 just wants to stay home 24/7 and jack off to Sonic all day I think he should still get UBI and healthcare and everything else because he's a human being. There's still an environmental cost to that though so I'm not sure where the trap here is?
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Oct 17, 2021 23:31
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sexpig by night posted:people have hobbies, I don't know how to explain this to you. My entire point was I don't care what they're doing, trying to turn it into some weird environmental cost thing doesn't work because just existing has environmental costs too. That's not what this was about. Sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your post! I got it confused with this kind of thinking: Ardennes posted:Not that they should starve, but all effort should be given to at least get them to do something marginally useful both for themselves and everyone else. Ask yourself what basis you have for thinking this. Ask yourself how one would go about determining what is and isn't marginally useful and who gets to be that person.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:36
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