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i say swears online posted:a good post A good post, I'll find that book too. And please, dont call the Sanchez government "left wing". They are, at most, lol-wing.
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Oct 18, 2021 09:52
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Dawncloack posted:A good post, I'll find that book too. using the international standard here!! until this initiative i considered anyone to the left of rajoy as just that. major leeway yeah but hey, y'all have been making fancy restaurants longer than democracies
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Oct 18, 2021 10:10
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Dawncloack posted:^^^ I think that's great, 99.99% of prostitutes are slaves.. Uhhh, what?
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Oct 18, 2021 15:12
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forkboy84 posted:Uhhh, what?
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Oct 19, 2021 00:21
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i say swears online posted:i work at a hotel and rent one of my rooms to a photographer who has local sex workers visit for fancy-ish onlyfans profile pics. should i be prosecuted the swerfs didn't answer my question 
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Oct 19, 2021 02:20
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I dont think the SWERFs (hate that term) arguments should be that easily dismissed considering the trafficking problems in legalising countries. I find some of the assumptions of legalising proponents shaky at best. The supply of "Legal" sex workers are never gonna fill the demand of johns in a fully legalised country and you often end up increasing trafficking inflows. Seems like to me that being a proponent of some kind of nordic model is more controversial among anglo-US feminists than in some European countries, especially among feminists and present & former sex workers. Not that it is without its detractors among them here, but it isnt a taboo position and there are strong sex worker factions for it too. Neither view is without its problems, and besides criminalising the buyer it varies widely between countries what else they do, like exit programmes, regulating police behaviour, other social instances etc. While others would prefer decriminalisation to legalisation, encountered that view especially in the UK. That legalisation increases trafficking and violence and that many if not most are trafficked, dont want to do it and correlates highy with poor mental wellbeing and past trauma is a big sticking point, countries where it is legal dont seem to be better at addressing these issues in the present level of control many of them have. Im not wholeheartedly convinced by any specific policy, but there are valid perspectives from present and former workers in both camps which shouldnt be dismissed out of hand given the often ambigous results we have. Falukorv has issued a correction as of 19:38 on Oct 19, 2021 |
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Oct 19, 2021 19:14
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They gave the Sakharov Prize to Navalny. 
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Oct 20, 2021 15:02
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SplitSoul posted:They gave the Sakharov Prize to Navalny. lmao
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Oct 20, 2021 15:23
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The prostitution question is simple: how much do you trust cops to enforce it? It's like the war on drugs. Legalisation is the best option because outlawing it is just ensuring profit for organised crime.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:32
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 RIP QE II
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Oct 20, 2021 15:36
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Falukorv posted:SWERFs I'm serious, please read Revolting Prostitutes, it explicitly treats all of these topics at length. The one thing I do want to go into detail on here is: quote:That legalisation increases trafficking and violence and that many if not most are trafficked, dont want to do it and correlates highy with poor mental wellbeing and past trauma is a big sticking point, countries where it is legal dont seem to be better at addressing these issues in the present level of control many of them have. Legalisation increasing trafficking and increasing violence is a huge claim to make and good luck proving it. Especially because when prostitution is illegal it necessarily becomes more hidden and good luck figuring out how much violence is happening at that point. Also, ultimately the core issue is going to remain that people need to get money to eat and they got to do something to get this money or else they will die. And that itself is violence. And also the foundation of our capitalist economic system. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 17:31 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 17:26
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yeah it's basically impossible to find any kind of decent data on the effects of prostitution legislation - the best the norwegian investigation managed to find was "there's probably less prostitution now". it really does come down to whether one believes that society can or should condone prostitution as a kind of regular work, which either way has some pretty unpleasant implications
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Oct 20, 2021 17:45
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i personally would rather focus on making the job of prostitution safer for those who work it right now. give them what they need to be safe, secure, get them their pension payments, protection from abuses, health care etc the question of whether it should exist is an interesting one but i feel ultimately moot so long as we live under capitalism. just get it out in the open and regulate it so the people doing it are safe. also you get the side effect of pushing prices upwards as those offering now have more bargaining power. make it as close as possible to working any other "normal" job under capitalism. yes, exploitative, but a lot better than it being underground imo
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Oct 20, 2021 17:58
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mortons stork posted:i personally would rather focus on making the job of prostitution safer for those who work it right now. give them what they need to be safe, secure, get them their pension payments, protection from abuses, health care etc
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Oct 20, 2021 18:08
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i wouldnt go as far as making it fully equal to any other job, but then again i think there is sufficient stigma that even if they were afforded the very basic protections they currently ask for we wouldnt be any closer to seeing it as equal to like, assembly line work within our human lifetimes. and its not like we got a lot of those left anyway, since global warming
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Oct 20, 2021 19:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This gets into the issue V.I.L. was hinting at: Job center appointed prostitution jobs/job training. job centers already can't appoint just any work. for example you don't have to be a coal miner if you don't want to do it and that's the only opening, so that sounds kinda like a bullshit excuse to me, what's another one on the list you don't have to take.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:27
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Truga posted:job centers already can't appoint just any work. for example you don't have to be a coal miner if you don't want to do it and that's the only opening, so that sounds kinda like a bullshit excuse to me, what's another one on the list you don't have to take. (Your first sentence is pretty definitive for something down to national legislation. There's no central UN job center telling German job centers they can't send people off to be prostitutes or lose their benefits, they decided that on their own and then got legal backing later.)
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Oct 20, 2021 21:25
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Wasn't some Vietnamese woman in Denmark literally sent to a brothel by the job center?
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Oct 20, 2021 22:05
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Truga posted:job centers already can't appoint just any work. for example you don't have to be a coal miner if you don't want to do it and that's the only opening, so that sounds kinda like a bullshit excuse to me, what's another one on the list you don't have to take. this very much depends on local circumstances and the arc of welfare reform has tended only one direction for the past several decades and this has a great potential for selective use against e.g. foreigners. this is bullshit, but we live in late capitalism and have to define our policy objectives from a view of late capitalist society however, even ignoring this, the issue is that on a fairly fundamental level we do not see outright prostitution as a normal work or this would not be a problem. this means that a discussion on the exact nature of that abnormality has to be a topic for discussion, which means that you've opened a whole big can of worms which have to be resolved without being able to resort to reduction to ordinary work. this means that the discussion becomes substantive and much more difficult.
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Oct 20, 2021 22:22
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SplitSoul posted:Wasn't some Vietnamese woman in Denmark literally sent to a brothel by the job center? there was a case in germany in like 2010 which is the only one i know of but yeah this sort of thing is not a hypothetical issue
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Oct 20, 2021 22:23
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SplitSoul posted:Wasn't some Vietnamese woman in Denmark literally sent to a brothel by the job center?
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Oct 21, 2021 06:09
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Entropist posted:A common myth propagated by people who want to get rid of it, but it's not true, especially not in the Netherlands where it's legal. Here's one of many such letters to the editor by a sex worker from the Amsterdam red light district satisfied with her job, complaining about this framing which they encounter constantly in Dutch media: https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/opinie-als-sekswerker-op-de-wallen-ben-je-niet-weerloos~b3df819f/ (in Dutch, sorry) I just feel like if you're going to make up a number to prove a point you'd make it a more believable one than "99.99%". That was what startled me. Unless you're counting all employees under capitalism as slaves which okay I can vibe with the sentiment but that's not generally the accepted meaning so you'd really have to spell it put. Sex work at the end of the day is work and most people do a job for the money because that's economic reality. Are there slaves in the sex industry and other people coerced into it? Absolutely. Bosses suck poo poo in every industry, nobody proposed making the manufacturing industry illegal because there were (& are) sweatshops which trafficked people into your country and forced them into working for pennies for long hours & in unsafe conditions. If someone chooses to make their living as a sex worker then hell, at least they aren't manufacturing arms or overseeing the dumping of toxic waste in Africa. It makes sense to me that industry would be safer for the workers if it's regulated and legalised to at least provide some protection even if you're relying on the police which is not at all reliable.
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Oct 21, 2021 10:14
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Seems unlikely, given that brothels are illegal here. Nah, it happened. Also it was a "massage" parlour. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/kvinde-sendt-i-jobaktivering-paa-bordel I think brothels are only illegal if procuring is involved.
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Oct 21, 2021 12:02
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Orange Devil posted:I'm serious, please read Revolting Prostitutes, it explicitly treats all of these topics at length.
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Oct 21, 2021 15:50
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SplitSoul posted:Nah, it happened. Also it was a "massage" parlour. SplitSoul posted:I think brothels are only illegal if procuring is involved. Straffeloven posted:§ 233 Den, der driver virksomhed med, at en anden mod betaling eller løfte om betaling har seksuelt forhold til en kunde, straffes for rufferi med fængsel indtil 4 år.
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Oct 21, 2021 15:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's everything from pimping to renting out a hotel room covered. Like, you don't even have to have any relation to the prostitute, if you rent out a room where they intend to gently caress a costumer you might end up in jail. It's literally just a question of whether you can answer yes "Do you make money off of other people loving clients for money, in any way?". If you can, you're breaking the law. Doesn't seem to be how the law is applied, though, IIRC there are independent sex workers renting houses together and stuff. Certainly there are commonly known brothels that don't get shut down, not just "massage parlours".
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Oct 21, 2021 16:06
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SplitSoul posted:Doesn't seem to be how the law is applied, though, IIRC there are independent sex workers renting houses together and stuff. Certainly there are commonly known brothels that don't get shut down, not just "massage parlours".
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Oct 21, 2021 16:20
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"read this book" does not constitute an argument in itself. sourcing arguments or recommending further reading is great, but simply telling people to read a book is almost never a constructive rhetorical tactic
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Oct 21, 2021 18:04
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Penisaurus Sex posted:poo poo might be popping off in the Balkans soon/again I think the most pressing problem in the Balkans isn't some Serbian-Kosovo clash, but the disintegration of Bosnia Herzegovina. quote:Earlier this month, Dodik said that Republika Srpska is pulling out of three key state institutions: the armed forces, top judiciary body and tax administration. I wonder who those 7 EU nations are. The friends are clearly Russia and Serbia. quote:Dodik insists “this isn’t secession” and “there is no possibility for war”, but he told media on October 14 that seven European Union countries support Bosnia’s dissolution, adding “friends” have promised help to the entity in case of “Western military intervention”.
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Oct 21, 2021 21:47
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OhFunny posted:I think the most pressing problem in the Balkans isn't some Serbian-Kosovo clash, but the disintegration of Bosnia Herzegovina. serbia and russia aren't in the european union
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Oct 21, 2021 21:55
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Doctor Jeep posted:serbia and russia aren't in the european union I don't read the "friends" part of that statement as referring to the previously mentioned seven EU nations.
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Oct 21, 2021 22:08
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OhFunny posted:I don't read the "friends" part of that statement as referring to the previously mentioned seven EU nations. right, right i think he's bullshitting in regard to the 7 EU states but who knows
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Oct 22, 2021 00:18
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V. Illych L. posted:"read this book" does not constitute an argument in itself. sourcing arguments or recommending further reading is great, but simply telling people to read a book is almost never a constructive rhetorical tactic I'm not interested in dealing with the rhetoric around the defense of the nordic model or any other anti-sex worker stances. Which is why I just plus one'd a different post. Decriminalise and allow sex workers to organise themselves. You know, as Workers. Other societal concerns and considerations come second to improving the lives and working conditions of sex workers in the immediate term. Sex work has been present in some form at all stages of human development and should be accepted as such and given conditions where sex workers can safely access things like justice and healthcare without dealing with the various roadblocks of liberal moralism endemic amongst these kinds of public services.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:53
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If they actually secede then there will be an Srpska unrecognized by the EU and the U.S. in the vicinity of a Kosovo unrecognized by Russia. Perfectly balanced. Cute.
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Oct 22, 2021 04:24
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https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg8wq7/slovenia-car-free-city-ljubljanaVice posted:A City Without Cars Is Already Here, and It’s Idyllic 
Truga has issued a correction as of 10:49 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 10:46
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car-free-city center and that should be a no brainer for literally any city with any kind of tourism
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Oct 22, 2021 11:01
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Oct 22, 2021 12:46
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Southpaugh posted:I'm not interested in dealing with the rhetoric around the defense of the nordic model or any other anti-sex worker stances. Which is why I just plus one'd a different post. right, this isn't actually addressing anything it's just reasserting a position which, again, is not a very strong rhetorical strategy. this sort of thing is a big problem in vaguely progressive politics in general which is why i'm reacting to it - the implicit assumption is that no objection made could possibly be made in good faith, which is a terrible assumption to make.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:31
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V. Illych L. posted:right, this isn't actually addressing anything it's just reasserting a position Yes I am aware. V. Illych L. posted:which, again, is not a very strong rhetorical strategy. this sort of thing is a big problem in vaguely progressive politics in general which is why i'm reacting to it - the implicit assumption is that no objection made could possibly be made in good faith, which is a terrible assumption to make. You're zooming in on an ineffective rhetorical strategy rather than considering why someone might fail to post whole heartedly on a subject which is difficult, multi-facted and almost universally taboo. I would effort-post in good faith in a dedicated thread. The general response you get from assorted leftists on this topic is moralistic and predicated upon in-built and unreflected upon "whorephobia". I'm also "just an ally" and not a sex worker, I just happen to have spoken to a few on the matter.
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Oct 22, 2021 19:10
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so your response to "it's bad to assume bad faith" is, effectively, "but it IS just bad faith and/or cognitive dysfunction" and this doesn't strike you as problematic in any way like, i'm not even really opposed to your position here, but there's no point in participating in a discussion like this if that's the strategy of choice. appeals to the privileged insights of the people directly affected also don't work, because those people are also notably divided on the issue, at least where i'm from - that strategy's been demonstrated as ineffective since ayaan hirsi ali got a career off stoking islamophobia, and probably before. the assumption that lived experience produces a unitary opinion, or even necessarily a superior level of insight on the matter at hand, is a very bad one and can be easily linked to several failures of the european left, most obviously the jeremy corbyn antisemitism nonsense. again, there's no way out of having to actually talk about this stuff in a substantive way and i resent the tendency of thought which sees that part as somehow beneath it and which keeps trying to come up with tricks to avoid having to do it.
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Oct 23, 2021 10:58
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