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I'll be fine, I platted Subnautica
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Oct 22, 2021 14:55
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“Together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.” — J. R. R. Tolkien People need to get comfortable with the fact that society as we know it is done for, but we can work to pull people out of the rubble. 1 billion dead is way different from 5 billion dead. In fact it's almost 4 billion better. David Wallace-Wells' book is good on that sort of thinking, at least in the general polemic sense E: also what big scary monsters said
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Oct 22, 2021 14:58
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big scary monsters posted:The climate is hosed, and we can acknowledge that it's hosed, but that's not a reason to say "Well guess we can just keep on going as before, it doesn't make a difference anyway." There are still degrees of hosed that we can choose between and the worst case scenario is considerably worse than the best case still possible. Hopeless doomerism is pointless, there is still plenty of meaningful work to do. It’s not that people have given up on being able to theoretically mitigate some outcomes, it’s that we all know there’s not a loving thing going to change the way the cunts who run things run things
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Oct 22, 2021 14:59
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Climate change/biosphere collapse is my absolute, definitive, A No.1 trigger, and I've tried but I'm too depressed and anxious to be anything other than totally, 100% doomer about it. The last page alone is gonna gently caress me up for at least the next week or so. I really wish that wasn't true and I feel guilty about feeling that way for the reasons Regarde mentions but I just don't feel like I can help it at the moment
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Oct 22, 2021 14:59
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I don't think that those in power will allow for their fossil fuel based gravy chain to end, and they'll run this planet into the ground, more so. Short of a global revolution, and one that isn't led by fascists, we're hosed. I know it's possible to slow down the effects of climate change, but that would require effort from these fuckers. Remember the opening scene of the Superman movie, when Krypton is imploding due to greed and capitalism?.... I see it as a bit like that, except with no space lifeboats.... but I've always been a bit of an optimist like that. fuctifino fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 15:03
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Barry Foster posted:Climate change/biosphere collapse is my absolute, definitive, A No.1 trigger, and I've tried but I'm too depressed and anxious to be anything other than totally, 100% doomer about it. The last page alone is gonna gently caress me up for at least the next week or so. I get this but I ended up going the complete opposite way. With things as they are climate change seems as inevitable as the heat death of the universe, and I as an individual have about as much power to do anything about it. So I worry about it about as much as I do my own mortality, or the sun exploding, or whatever. Which is to say occasionally I get into a bit of an existential dread spiral but find it impossible to maintain the anxiety the whole time. It feels like one of those things where it pays to have a certain amount of healthy nihilism.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:08
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ThomasPaine posted:fucksake though I love a tunnocks tea cake I can take them or leave them. Caramel Wafers, though... Might have to check these out: https://www.ringtons.co.uk/treats-c8/biscuits-c13/ringtons-milk-chocolate-caramel-wafers-p45/s45
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Oct 22, 2021 15:11
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Noxville posted:It’s not that people have given up on being able to theoretically mitigate some outcomes, it’s that we all know there’s not a loving thing going to change the way the cunts who run things run things They are changing the way they run things, though. Slowly, and of course with the aim of preserving the systems that give them their power as much as possible. But climate change and its mitigation are accepted, conventional and mainstream concerns in a way they certainly were not ten or twenty years ago. Even the oil companies pay lip service to going green these days. A lot of the actual action is still greenwashing, corruption, and useless gesturing, but not all of it. That change in consensus is down to decades of pressure from groups of ordinary people. Now, when the effects of climate change are becoming undeniably obvious, is hardly the time to give up.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:12
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Barry Foster posted:Climate change/biosphere collapse is my absolute, definitive, A No.1 trigger, and I've tried but I'm too depressed and anxious to be anything other than totally, 100% doomer about it. The last page alone is gonna gently caress me up for at least the next week or so. I think about it this way: I have one life to live and there's a reasonable chance I'm not going to have the option of living it out to a natural end like previous generations, so I could fritter whatever time I have away being a posting addicted doomscrolling alcoholic or I could enjoy my life whilst I have it, no one's going to give you a medal for having willingly exposed yourself to so much climate science you developed clinical depression
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Oct 22, 2021 15:13
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I think the big danger is, as fuctifino says, eco-fascism being what wins out. The so-called refugee crisis of a few years back is nothing to the tens of millions of people who are going to be forced to leave their homes for less immediately climate-devastated areas in the next couple decades, and right now it looks to me like the response in Europe will be to install machine guns on the borders.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:15
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ThomasPaine posted:I get this but I ended up going the complete opposite way. With things as they are climate change seems as inevitable as the heat death of the universe, and I as an individual have about as much power to do anything about it. So I worry about it about as much as I do my own mortality, or the sun exploding, or whatever. Which is to say occasionally I get into a bit of an existential dread spiral but find it impossible to maintain the anxiety the whole time. It feels like one of those things where it pays to have a certain amount of healthy nihilism. I’m pretty much the same. I do my fair share of political work to try and make things better but past a certain point you just have to let it wash over you. Enjoy your time here and be thankful for the wonderful cocktail of narcotics you’re free to use to make it more fun.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:17
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big scary monsters posted:They are changing the way they run things, though. Slowly, and of course with the aim of preserving the systems that give them their power as much as possible. But climate change and its mitigation are accepted, conventional and mainstream concerns in a way they certainly were not ten or twenty years ago. Even the oil companies pay lip service to going green these days. A lot of the actual action is still greenwashing, corruption, and useless gesturing, but not all of it. That change in consensus is down to decades of pressure from groups of ordinary people. Now, when the effects of climate change are becoming undeniably obvious, is hardly the time to give up. Yes, people have noticed that this rollercoaster is getting rather high now and are paying lip service to 'maybe we should mitigate this by going net zero by 2050'. The point is that we're already high in the air and we've got to come down somehow. Given human nature and *waves generally at all of history* I don't see that being a nice gentle descent.  It just irritates me when people write off an acknowledgement of the actual material conditions as 'doomerism' or fatalism. When we say it's too late, we mean that for a comfortable resolution mitigation strategies needed to be put in place back in 1991, if not the 1970s. It's not like this is unprecedented, we see exactly the same boom and bust cycle in every aspect of nature. See: St. Matthew's Island reindeer population. We as humans just have the unmitigated gall to think we're unique and clever enough as a species to avoid it late in the day. I'm going to post this again because it's by far the best sociological analysis of the overshoot I've come across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDWhjSUu8UY Barry, as unhelpful as it's going to be to say this the solution is truly to let the knowledge wash over you and enjoy life in an existentialist way. I know that's not possible for a lot of people, and as such I apologise for bringing this into the thread. I normally try not to.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:47
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big scary monsters posted:I think the big danger is, as fuctifino says, eco-fascism being what wins out. The so-called refugee crisis of a few years back is nothing to the tens of millions of people who are going to be forced to leave their homes for less immediately climate-devastated areas in the next couple decades, and right now it looks to me like the response in Europe will be to install machine guns on the borders. I feel like it's optimistic to say there'll be any 'eco' in the fascism.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:49
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multijoe posted:I think about it this way: I have one life to live and there's a reasonable chance I'm not going to have the option of living it out to a natural end like previous generations, so I could fritter whatever time I have away being a posting addicted doomscrolling alcoholic or I could enjoy my life whilst I have it, no one's going to give you a medal for having willingly exposed yourself to so much climate science you developed clinical depression Which is why I avoid it like the plague and was sad when it came up in this thread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Even then it's still often the first thing I think about when I wake up and it's certainly the thing I spend my time thinking about when I wake up in the night (that or my parents dying), but I guess that's depression and anxiety for ya. I hope to be dead by the time it gets really bad, it's the kids I feel terrible for. Every time I look at my nieces my heart hurts. It's illogical but it feels hosed to just have a merry old time knowing that it's an enormous privilege to be able to do so. If they survive (which there's no guarantee they will), how could they feel anything but hatred and betrayal towards me, their parents, their grandparents? It's not a nice thought. But that's life, bitter with the sweet (mostly bitter, but that's the way it is) EDIT - VVVVVVVVVVVV lol indeed Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 15:49
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Barry Foster posted:Which is why I avoid it like the plague and was sad when it came up in this thread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Recent experience has shown that we need to update that phrase, because it turns out people will not do even the slightest thing to avoid a plague, if it's at all inconvenient or they just don't want to do it.
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Oct 22, 2021 15:54
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Haha, I feel like this should be the least surprising thing about fossil fuel use I’ve ever seen but this still got a mini crack-ping from me
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Oct 22, 2021 15:55
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https://twitter.com/AydinDikerdem/status/1451506455127920640
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Oct 22, 2021 16:04
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"department for levelling up"?!  gently caress I hate this country
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Oct 22, 2021 16:07
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Barry Foster posted:"department for levelling up"?! It gets worse, Gove is in charge of it.
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Oct 22, 2021 16:09
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Barry Foster posted:Climate change/biosphere collapse is my absolute, definitive, A No.1 trigger, and I've tried but I'm too depressed and anxious to be anything other than totally, 100% doomer about it. The last page alone is gonna gently caress me up for at least the next week or so. Same honestly, and I already know the process for dealing with it but it still requires a lot of effort to push the sorrow out of my head, effort I often do not have the energy for.
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Oct 22, 2021 16:18
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Failed Imagineer posted:People need to get comfortable with the fact that society as we know it is done for, but we can work to pull people out of the rubble. 1 billion dead is way different from 5 billion dead. In fact it's almost 4 billion better. David Wallace-Wells' book is good on that sort of thinking, at least in the general polemic sense big scary monsters posted:right now it looks to me like the response in Europe will be to install machine guns on the borders. In early 20th c. literary metaphor of course. Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like it's optimistic to say there'll be any 'eco' in the fascism. 
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Oct 22, 2021 16:19
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The phrase "levelling up" needs to get in the loving bin already. Neither my bank account nor my barbeque needs to be levelled up. Ok, maybe the bank account, but even then it's only the number that needs it.
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Oct 22, 2021 16:38
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Barry Foster posted:"department for levelling up"?! It's like grinding in WoW innit.
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Oct 22, 2021 16:41
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Levelling up is being used as it suggests bringing deprived regions up can be done without impacting anywhere else. Talking of redistribution or economic fairness leads to thinking about how much money the ultra rich have and why they absolutely don't need it at all as the way to lessen the inequality.
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Oct 22, 2021 16:41
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The Tories have managed to ruin even the concept of levelling up in a video game. I saw one recently that actively said "level up" when the XP ticked over and it just pissed me off.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:00
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The real pro-gamer move would have been for the Tories to say they're doing an SL1 build for the North
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Oct 22, 2021 17:03
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Anne Marie Morris said a gamer word.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like it's optimistic to say there'll be any 'eco' in the fascism. Yeah exactly The goal of eco-fascism, as I understand it anyway, would be to actually save the human species from extinction at any cost. This will not happen. Instead it will be just ordinary fascism, and the goal will be to preserve the profits and lifestyle of the richest at any cost
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Oct 22, 2021 17:20
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namesake posted:Levelling up is being used as it suggests bringing deprived regions up can be done without impacting anywhere else. Talking of redistribution or economic fairness leads to thinking about how much money the ultra rich have and why they absolutely don't need it at all as the way to lessen the inequality. The thing is it *can* be done without impacting anywhere else (or at least no regions bigger than certain streets in London). If anything there's a much bigger multiplier effect in public spending in, say, Leeds than there is in London. The Silvertown Tunnel is going to cost a billion quid and it's biggest economic benefit is going to be cutting journey times for HGVs heading to north London because they'll no longer have to divert around to Dartford because they're too tall to fit through the northbound Blackwall Tunnel - it will most definitely not cut anyone else's journey times because you've got the same catastrophic traffic on either side. How many cheap - or free - regular buses could you run around the country with a billion quid up front (and the same amount again over the next 25 years)? How many trams/light railways could you set up in bigger towns and smaller cities? gently caress it even at full retail price a billion quid pretty much pays for fibre to the home to like 95% of the population. Which of these are going to improve *literally everything* both at that local level and at the national level through lower emissions, a more diversified economy, and just generally not forcing people to have to move to the other end of the country on the off-chance of a decent job? Plus of course it's not a zero sum game - there's no reason why London has to go without Crossrail 2, the Victoria and Bakerloo extensions, and a couple of rebuilt bridges, those are still good things to do even if London's population drops back down a couple of million because all the fart app devs are now homeworking in Darlington. Just loving tax a tiny, tiny amount of the poo poo hurtling through our FIRE sector and Heckmondwike can have better public transport than Trafalgar Square, plus we can all have a gigabit of bandwidth and a free couple of degrees too with the change.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:37
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jaete posted:Yeah exactly Well... wiping out every person outside of your particular definition of "human" and using most of the rest to hand-tend your crops instead of wasting money and oil on tractors *would* allow the human race to last a lot longer than just shouting "carbon tax credits!" would.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:41
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The 14 words could be interpreted as saving the human species from extinction at any cost, while also being poo poo for cunts.
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Oct 22, 2021 17:48
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The thing is it *can* be done without impacting anywhere else (or at least no regions bigger than certain streets in London). If anything there's a much bigger multiplier effect in public spending in, say, Leeds than there is in London. The Silvertown Tunnel is going to cost a billion quid and it's biggest economic benefit is going to be cutting journey times for HGVs heading to north London because they'll no longer have to divert around to Dartford because they're too tall to fit through the northbound Blackwall Tunnel - it will most definitely not cut anyone else's journey times because you've got the same catastrophic traffic on either side. Nah the reason that the regional inequalities exist is because of the structural inequalities in our economy, effectively remedying the regional issues means tackling the structural ones. Capitalism has these centrifugal tendancies of creating big, brilliant centres of activity surrounded by big crappy regions dependent on the centre because profit maximising needs the crappy regions proving commodities (particularly labour) for cheap, bringing them into the activity hubs where exploitation is maximised. If you make the periphery a nice place to live with its own industry and entertainment then you're attacking the actually existing capital formations - see how WFH has crippled real estate owning firms? Imagine hundreds of thousands of people flat out leaving the cities (or never coming at all) and the labour supply and commodity demand which would collapse because of it. Billions of pounds of asset values and expected return on investment would evaporate and while they can be created elsewhere it is not going to be the same groups of capitalists holding onto the newly created wealth. The financial sector also needs to be challenged as they exclusively rely on a cushy legal structure which they can control and a dominant position in the economy so that international trading balances and currency exchanges etc work according to financial (as opposed to industrial say) needs while having no attachment to the country at large, there's no reason for financial centres to appear far away from legislative power and they sure as poo poo aren't going to agree to disperse around the country so developing anything else in the country requires hostility to financial services. namesake fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 18:32
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Well... wiping out every person outside of your particular definition of "human" and using most of the rest to hand-tend your crops instead of wasting money and oil on tractors *would* allow the human race to last a lot longer than just shouting "carbon tax credits!" would. You're saying eco-fascism would somehow be... well, better than just straight up "dumb" fascism? Maybe, but I don't think it matters, since even the strictest eco-fascism imaginable still won't solve the problem (and it would also be real loving bad, see the part where it says "fascism") To be clear, all kinds of fascism are stupid poo poo for cunts and none of them will work or solve anything
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Oct 22, 2021 18:34
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I wrote about the original nazi eco-fascists in my book and can confirm it was and always will be stupid poo poo for cunts
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Oct 22, 2021 18:36
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this is the cost-benefit analysis submitted for the Silvertown Tunnel and is reasonably representative of what said analysis looks like, although I cannot attest for its quality: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/st-economic-assessment-report-silvertown-tunnel.pdf namesake does kind of put a finger on the ideological point implicit in the analysis, which is that the analysis is a microeconomic one that takes the terrain as given. Those value-of-travel-time savings estimates are immense for London because London already has very high productivity per unit time. This isn't the stealthy hand of bourgeois conspiracy, this is the actual methodology of the cost-benefit analysis
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Oct 22, 2021 19:13
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Barry Foster posted:I wrote about the original nazi eco-fascists in my book and can confirm it was and always will be stupid poo poo for cunts Obviously it's cool if you don't want to dox yourself but I find this really interesting and I'd love to read your book if you'd be willing to link it either here or in a pm
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Oct 22, 2021 19:14
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ThomasPaine posted:Obviously it's cool if you don't want to dox yourself but I find this really interesting and I'd love to read your book if you'd be willing to link it either here or in a pm Yeah not gonna doxx myself here lol I'll PM you It's kind of a tangent, it's not a big part of it, but I still did a lot of research. If nothing else you'll find some pretty cool sources in the bibliography
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Oct 22, 2021 19:24
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Sounds interesting, what do you mean by 'original nazi eco-fascists' here? Soil association or more esoteric? Unrelated, Meacher's assisted dying with dignity passed second reading in the Lords unopposed.  Guess the government can no longer even attempt to say "life is precious no matter how sick you are" with a straight face after the last couple years.
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Oct 22, 2021 19:57
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Barry Foster posted:Yeah not gonna doxx myself here lol I'll PM you
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Oct 22, 2021 19:58
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Barry Foster posted:I wrote about the original nazi eco-fascists in my book and can confirm it was and always will be stupid poo poo for cunts Ecofascsim is a bit of a misnomer, as ‘eco’ comes from the modern science of ecology. And if you accept that you probably also accept climatology. and so all the various scientific and technological fixes that can solve (or least greatly mitigate) the problem within the bounds of normal democratic activism and politics. Malthofascism would probably be better; the underlying logic is the same as that that killed all those people in 19c Ireland and India. Once you can categorise a problem as ‘too many people’, fascist methods really do start to look like a solution.
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Oct 22, 2021 20:18
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