|
Alhazred posted:Babylon rewatch: i think there are fundamental problems with the writing of s5, byron, lyta and lochley are all examples. lochley has the beginning of a really good arc and her day of the dead episode is very solid, but then she just disappears.
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
At least Lyta has an arch. Lochley is just there (sometimes).
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Babylon rewatch: they gave her a "personality" in one of the movies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Babylon rewatch: So let’s talk S5. First, JMS clearly had an original S5 plan where Ivanova, double-hurt by the losses of Talia and Marcus, ends up getting pulled into the telepath thing and convinced by Byron that she needs to let the past go and live in the moment. She opens up telepathically for the first time since her mother died. She opens up emotionally to Byron. And as a result, the telepaths learn that the Vorlons engineered them as weapons, and things turn nasty. Ivanova is caught between her position and her feelings, Bester shows up, things get tragic again for Ivanova, and alongside that Garibaldi is self-destructing and Sheridan is overwhelmed. Then Claudia Christian didn’t sign a contract and that all had to be salvaged at the last minute. Second, JMS was attending a convention in the UK (the same one where the contract negotiations were happening in real time, because the move to TNT meant a smaller budget which meant fewer shooting days per episode which meant less money), and had carried along his binder with 3x5 cards containing his plot plans for S5. He left them out in his room, went down to the convention, and discovered the maid had thrown them out when he returned. The hotel manager offered to let him go through the hotel trash, and I believe he actually did, but no luck. I think he found out about Christian the following week. And third, and I don’t think JMS has been quite as forthcoming in this area, but he’d shifted to doing pretty much everything, from approving props and prosthetics to sitting in the editing room with directors and editors, and he was burnt out. (It probably didn’t help that his office desk was one wall away from the electrical mains for the whole hot tub warehouse-turned studio. He has told the story of an inspector coming in with equipment and telling him that he’d essentially been being cooked for four years. It’s a small miracle that the characters speak in complete sentences in S5! One presumes JMS will be writing the reboot in part with getting S5 right this time. I think it does a lot well and that the biggest problem is having to introduce new characters alongside all the Byron problems. JMS wanted a middle-aged Psi Cop who’d switched to hippie cult-leader mode but was potentially deranged, and what he got was somebody too young and performances and stagings too favorable to the cult. Byron is supposed to think he’s Jesus and be clearly heading for apocolyptic martyrdom, but Downes can’t sell that and it sure seems like none of the directors know what to do, so the cult feels more like a bunch of flower children alongside a handful of violent thugs who cause problems, disobey Byron, and have no clear reason to be alongside him to begin with. Downes never seems truly dangerous. I’d argue the only character handled more poorly was Lorien. On-screen, he’s clearly God-Mentor/Gandalf. On the page, he should be creepy-powerful Elder who resembles both the Shadows (so helpful, the Shadows) AND the Vorlons. We ought to be thinking “this guy made the Shadows and Vorlons what they are today, so is he as bad or worse?” And casting Wayne “Jack the Ripper” Alexander to play him seems like a 50% “can act through prosthetics” and 50% “can be an unnerving presence on-screen.” But then, with the exception of Garibaldi’s uneasiness, everything on-screen and in the performance assures us this guy is the 4th act savior and poses no threat at all. JMS is partly to blame, but I think it’s also that all the directors correctly identified his role and played into that instead of tacking against it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
the show could never do much with lochley when it refused to define her role in the civil war. what did she spend 2260-2261 doing? what did she think about the bombings on mars and proxima 3? did she support sheridan's cause, fight against it, or sit out? where was she based, what did she do? did she comply with clark's orders or find some clever way around them? i feel like in order to have her do things as a character you really need to answer those questions. otherwise, what can you do? the new earthforce military captain has a huge blank space where it concerns the most dramatic event in recent EA history but also the previous two seasons of the show. so, she just kind of exists and the show hopes no one asks what she did under the clark regime.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 13:27
|
|
|
Horizon Burning posted:the show could never do much with lochley when it refused to define her role in the civil war. what did she spend 2260-2261 doing? what did she think about the bombings on mars and proxima 3? did she support sheridan's cause, fight against it, or sit out? where was she based, what did she do? did she comply with clark's orders or find some clever way around them? i feel like in order to have her do things as a character you really need to answer those questions. otherwise, what can you do? the new earthforce military captain has a huge blank space where it concerns the most dramatic event in recent EA history but also the previous two seasons of the show. so, she just kind of exists and the show hopes no one asks what she did under the clark regime. Wasn't there this big scene in the mess hall where she justified her pro-regime actions after being called out on them as "protecting her crew"? Or am I misremembering?
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 14:16
|
|
|
She proudly talks about how she (just) followed orders because that is what a good soldier does. It wasn't her place to question those orders. Makes me wonder what happened to the Geneva Convention in the B5 timeline. It does make sense with her backstory being "Embraced antilife and abdicated decision making power to the military."
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
She was Pro-Clarke and one of the reasons Sheridan picked her was because she was on the other side and it was meant to be an act of reconciliation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
Given that Garibaldi accessed her personnel files, I'd presume that she never committed war crimes or he'd have used that against her in their confrontation after he did that. We never got any details on what she did do, so likely she wasn't stationed somewhere in the way of combat, and if her marriage to Sheridan was known I'd expect she'd have been kept well away from any trusted position where she'd be confronting the rebel forces because Clark's people seem like the suspicious type, even if Psi Corps gave her the all-clear.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 19:27
|
|
|
Narsham posted:Given that Garibaldi accessed her personnel files, I'd presume that she never committed war crimes or he'd have used that against her in their confrontation after he did that. We never got any details on what she did do, so likely she wasn't stationed somewhere in the way of combat, and if her marriage to Sheridan was known I'd expect she'd have been kept well away from any trusted position where she'd be confronting the rebel forces because Clark's people seem like the suspicious type, even if Psi Corps gave her the all-clear. LOL, I forgot she was his ex, too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
Narsham posted:Given that Garibaldi accessed her personnel files, I'd presume that she never committed war crimes or he'd have used that against her in their confrontation after he did that. We never got any details on what she did do, so likely she wasn't stationed somewhere in the way of combat, and if her marriage to Sheridan was known I'd expect she'd have been kept well away from any trusted position where she'd be confronting the rebel forces because Clark's people seem like the suspicious type, even if Psi Corps gave her the all-clear. I mean honestly, she could have been the captain of one of the Omegas that gets disabled by Sheridan's Teepsicle Bombs. She'd presumably have spent the war in Mars orbit waiting on defense for the Army of Light to arrive. So she wouldn't have had a chance to do any war crimes just sitting there, and arguably she might have helped saved Earth by blowing up a few of the Planetary Defense Grid Satellites.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2021 23:03
|
|
|
jng2058 posted:I mean honestly, she could have been the captain of one of the Omegas that gets disabled by Sheridan's Teepsicle Bombs. She'd presumably have spent the war in Mars orbit waiting on defense for the Army of Light to arrive. So she wouldn't have had a chance to do any war crimes just sitting there, and arguably she might have helped saved Earth by blowing up a few of the Planetary Defense Grid Satellites. That would've been good because it calls into question Sheridan's motives, is she just a token hire who didn't do bad because she never had the chance or the best he could do considering the other side was Future Space Nazis? Can he stick to those principles he spoke so highly of during the war now that he's in the biggest political hot seat in the galaxy?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:LOL, I forgot she was his ex, too. "How many wives has he had?!" "Just three."
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 00:55
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Wasn't there this big scene in the mess hall where she justified her pro-regime actions after being called out on them as "protecting her crew"? Or am I misremembering? yeah, but that's about all we get. which i don't really think is enough.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 10:17
|
|
|
Lockley giving that sanctimonious speech to the cast regulars who risked their lives toppling fascism and saving Earth as a dress-down for daring to question her only to have the Extra Crew give her a loving ovation for it is why I haven't successfully completed a rewatch of Season 5. Her character makes me ill.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 10:51
|
|
|
Even when it was new, as a teenager, that speech always bothered the hell out of me. It actually ruined the character for me, if not for that speech I actually rather liked Lochley. The implications of it are loving horrifying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 11:09
|
|
|
It's a speech that would entirely land well with the rank and file, because it's what they're taught to believe. Would JMS do an in character "and then everyone clapped"? Dunno, maybe.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 11:20
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:It's a speech that would entirely land well with the rank and file, because it's what they're taught to believe. Would JMS do an in character "and then everyone clapped"? Dunno, maybe. I would hope the rank and file of B5 would have known better after living through the Shadow War and the Civil War. They weren't fed a steady diet of lies and propaganda about what was going on, they knew what Clark did at every step. Also the regulars who she dresses down the with speech fold like deck chairs, as if they're embarrassed when they should be infuriated by this nazi talking down to them after what the people she collaborated with did to Sheridan and the President she stood with almost wiped out the entire population of Earth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 11:26
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I would hope the rank and file of B5 would have known better after living through the Shadow War and the Civil War. They weren't fed a steady diet of lies and propaganda about what was going on, they knew what Clark did at every step. Also the regulars who she dresses down the with speech fold like deck chairs, as if they're embarrassed when they should be infuriated by this nazi talking down to them after what the people she collaborated with did to Sheridan and the President she stood with almost wiped out the entire population of Earth. Don’t let’s be beastly to the Vorlons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 11:42
|
|
|
It's definitely A Take on reconciliation after a civil war, I dunno what to really make of it from a realistic perspective. I guess the Spanish American war made a big point of reconciliation by having former confederate officers serve 30 years after the Civil War. Although I think the exact specifics of what Lockley said don't really make clear whether she fought or not. She could've tried staying out of the fighting. Firing on ships in revolt could also count as "firing on our own". If she did anything big during the war, surely that would've been open information. Even if she fought, plausibly she could've been uninvolved with the bigger fascist actions. Garibaldi's accusations aren't even much to do with the fascism, he doesn't accuse her of bombing Mars or helping Nightwatch or any of the poo poo they were fighting against, it's just an accusation of "if you weren't with us, you were against us," which is its own perspective that could be problematic. Plausibly there would've been a lot of ships out in the middle of nowhere that wouldn't know what to make of all the conflicting reports. What to do when a civil war breaks out is a very complicated question. I'm not exactly sure whether I've seen all of season 5 though, there's a lot I don't remember, and I definitely never got around to it on my attempts to rewatch the series.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 16:05
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Garibaldi's accusations aren't even much to do with the fascism, he doesn't accuse her of bombing Mars or helping Nightwatch or any of the poo poo they were fighting against, it's just an accusation of "if you weren't with us, you were against us," which is its own perspective that could be problematic. Being pissed that she served for the guy who overthrew the government she swore to protect and installed his own fascist regime on live TV doesn't seem problematic to me at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but my read on it was that it showed that Sheridan defeated Clarke, but he did jack poo poo about preventing another just like Clarke in the future. Sheridan opposed this one fascist leader, not fascism itself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 16:49
|
|
|
You guys are definitely watching a different show.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 17:01
|
|
|
Groetgaffel posted:I don't know if it was intentional or not, but my read on it was that it showed that Sheridan defeated Clarke, but he did jack poo poo about preventing another just like Clarke in the future. Arguably the Interstellar Alliance was his attempt at preventing another Clarke in the future
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
As I recall, part of it was Lochley saying (paraphrased) "Yes, I obeyed orders, but if I didn't obey their orders because I didn't like them how do you know that I'd obey yours?" And if she'd been involved in any of the actual war crimes she wouldn't have been given the B5 job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
Gyrotica posted:Being pissed that she served for the guy who overthrew the government she swore to protect and installed his own fascist regime on live TV doesn't seem problematic to me at all. Why is Sheridan's "regime" fascist? Because he didn't immediately hold a general election and potentially let all of Clarke's goose-steppers take right back over again?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 17:57
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Garibaldi's accusations aren't even much to do with the fascism, he doesn't accuse her of bombing Mars or helping Nightwatch or any of the poo poo they were fighting against, it's just an accusation of "if you weren't with us, you were against us," which is its own perspective that could be problematic. I think this is a fair enough point, but if that's all they were after with Lochley's character then they fell woefully short of what DS9 accomplished on that same theme. Episodes like Duet, The Collaborator, Things Past and Ties of Blood and Water dig deep into the questions begged by the premise of "Good person on the side of fascists," and they don't give any credence to the fascism while they do it. Granted, Season 5 had a lot working against it, but I would have expected better from JMS is all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
I got the impression that a lot of people on Earth were uncomfortable with Sheridan, and he definitely didn't totally take over and reform the EA as temporary dictator, he remained outside the government and tried to influence it from outside. Maybe that's not the best solution, but it's what he did. From the show itself, bad things are in Earth's future anyways. And I guess there's also a little element of how this accusation of disloyalty comes from tough-on-crime, electric-bleachers, threatens-to-space-people-he-doesn't-like, got-in-a-ridiculous-fight-over-not-trusting-Sheridan, actor-becomes-a-right-wing-talkshow-host, Garibaldi, I don't think he's coming at this from an ideological perspective either. He's upset at the lack of alignment, but seemingly unworried about whether she did any of the associated crimes against humanity. McSpanky posted:Why is Sheridan's "regime" fascist? Because he didn't immediately hold a general election and potentially let all of Clarke's goose-steppers take right back over again? I think by the wording, he means Clarke's takeover, but the exact constitutional legality of that isn't really clear. Assassinating the president is the one clearly illegal thing, but that was covered up pretty effectively. Sometimes a turn to fascism involves an overthrow, but sometimes it can just get a good position of authority from within the system to muck around from. Sheridan's whole "chain of command" loophole reasoning for refusing the Nightwatch order seems like shaky ground from a strict legalist perspective even if it was morally right. Sheridan also had a very different perspective on things than most captains further away from any action would. He was being buttered up for a possible coup by the top brass; he had access to crazy weird alien information and enough details to know its legitimacy; he had a big civilian population and subordinate officers that were personally loyal to him. If you're all on your own being fed most of your information through military lines of communication, it would probably be more ambiguous. And if you had some kind of purpose out on the frontier like guarding against potential alien invasion, that's a big excuse to just...not try your luck and stay put.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 19:00
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I think by the wording, he means Clarke's takeover, but the exact constitutional legality of that isn't really clear. Assassinating the president is the one clearly illegal thing, but that was covered up pretty effectively. Sometimes a turn to fascism involves an overthrow, but sometimes it can just get a good position of authority from within the system to muck around from. Sheridan's whole "chain of command" loophole reasoning for refusing the Nightwatch order seems like shaky ground from a strict legalist perspective even if it was morally right.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
McSpanky posted:Why is Sheridan's "regime" fascist? Because he didn't immediately hold a general election and potentially let all of Clarke's goose-steppers take right back over again? I'd say Sheridan isn't fascist but there are certainly some strong authoritarian streaks in the storyline of our "heroes". I mean he is pretty much married to "alien royalty" and without Delenn and her power (which is derived from a caste system) things would have gone very differently. Another point is that it never seemed like "democracy" itself is even what is being protected, it's more about humanity in general and less about a particular system of government. Let's be honest here, the EA seemed extremely militaristic and had fascist tones even before Clarke (the PsiCorp didn't just come out of nowhere and the same is true for the aggressiveness of humans in general, embodied in how the war vs the Minbari was started). It's also not like the population of B5 was ever treated as anything else than a problem, a lot of episodes even resolve around "the people" being a problem that needs to be solved (one example being the strike of workers). The whole resistence vs Clarke is a military splinter group and we never explore earth politics and whether or not this has even public support. In the end the story is literally about a chosen one which always has the smell of authoritarinism in it because the chosen one is the only individual who can solve all problems and any "peasants" are at best an obstacle to his/her goals. If a new TV show does have changes then I hope it is to address some of this especially considering that there could be a lot of good story/character potential in it. PS: I'd compare Sheridan to an early, benign Roman emporer, someone working within an already corrupted system and Sheridan is just a "general" who decided that the current Emperor is no good for the empire... LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Oct 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
idk, the Minbari war seemed like a wash in terms of whose fault it was. Don't mind us, we're just irradiating the poo poo out of you to the point where it effects your sensors and communications while approaching with open gun ports... it's our culture.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 22:23
|
|
|
McSpanky posted:Why is Sheridan's "regime" fascist? Because he didn't immediately hold a general election and potentially let all of Clarke's goose-steppers take right back over again? I parsed this as the Clarke Regime being the fascist one. When they took over ISN was when it was "done on live TV". I think you are looking for a fight where there isn't one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
I'm not sure you can make Cincinnatus/Washington parallels with Sheridan. He seemed to be pretty involved in the IPA up until his death. He's more like a Mao with a *very* benevolent Jiang Qing. And also if Mao had Zhou Enlai's temperament. Though LOL at Aragorn peaceing out to the undying lands and leaving Arwen behind just to live basically forever. I wonder if they also had two unnamed daughters in addition to David.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 22:35
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:It was explicitly said that everything that Sheridan did, including refusing the Nightwatch order, was illegal and the only way anyone was going to avoid military tribunal was if he stepped down. Sure, it's illegal... because Sheridan decided to leave the EA government largely intact instead of doing a complete tear-down on it and rooting out all the Clarkites. Big shades of Reconstruction and De-Nazification there (and the consequences of such failure foretold in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars", becoming more prescient every year since).
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 23:01
|
|
|
Young Rangers be like Rebuild rebuild rebuild rebuild Free human children rebuild For a better future We'll fix our Earth
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 23:17
|
|
|
Infidelicious posted:idk, the Minbari war seemed like a wash in terms of whose fault it was. Nobly do a fake attack out of respect and refuse to ever verbally explain what they're doing and genocide the entire species for a slipup. The Minbari think that they're friendly, but there's a reason that they've been isolated for centuries and the Centauri tell people to just not even try contacting them,
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
LinkesAuge posted:I'd say Sheridan isn't fascist but there are certainly some strong authoritarian streaks in the storyline of our "heroes". I mean he is pretty much married to "alien royalty" and without Delenn and her power (which is derived from a caste system) things would have gone very differently. This whole discussion started in and has been going in some directions I don't really understand. Sheridan did not actually overthrow Clark, although he certainly arrived with that intention: if Clark had not killed himself, he would have been arrested by Senator Crosby, taken into custody, and investigated. Sheridan is careful not to "crown" the next EA president, and he spends most of the episode after "Endgame" under arrest. Whether the ISA is a fascist organization is a little hard to parse given that we see little of it in S5, but none of its founding documents point in that direction, Sheridan as first president seems largely ineffectual and not dictatorial, and "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" claims that it's necessary to falsify evidence that Sheridan was fascistic, so either you disbelieve the evidence on the screen (in favor of what?) or you're conflating fascism with something else. While it's true Earthforce is presented as fascistic and even villainous before and after the series (see Crusade, in particular, and the unfilmed script summaries), the series repeatedly insists that the collapse of Clark's regime means most of his followers in the Night Watch and similar organizations are either getting arrested and tried, or doing a quick fade, or turning patriot and ratting out their compatriots. The underlying rot in the EA and Psi Corps remains, and it's clear Crusade was going to address the former and the Telepath War would have worked through the latter. I am depressed by your somewhat hateful and false depiction of Delenn. Minbari caste systems are not fixed (we witness a conversion on Neroon's part and all he has to do is make a public declaration), it is unclear how their leadership is chosen but they appear to have at least a somewhat representative system, and Delenn turns down multiple leadership positions over the course of the show. I find it disheartening that Clark and ISN's transparent propaganda smearing Sheridan in part through racial animus directed at the Minbari generally and Delenn specifically has somehow crept into your post as valid. There's a lot of valid concerns about Delenn, and the show highlights several, but this is not worthy of you. Ultimately, if your criteria for leadership is that the "peasants" have to be in charge or it's authoritarianism, I wonder what real-world governments have avoided authoritarianism in your eyes. Also, can we all agree that the man's name is "Clark" and not "Clarke"? I was able to ignore it at first, but it's getting increasingly hard to do.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
Narsham posted:Ultimately, if your criteria for leadership is that the "peasants" have to be in charge or it's authoritarianism, I wonder what real-world governments have avoided authoritarianism in your eyes. I mean, poo poo, Delenn put the workers in charge of the Minbari when she had absolute power and could have instituted any government she wanted. What more do people want?
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2021 00:30
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I mean, poo poo, Delenn put the workers in charge of the Minbari when she had absolute power and could have instituted any government she wanted. What more do people want? There is a drive in some people to take anything that the majority of viewers see as a good thing, and paint it evil. It's tired and not interesting in the slightest, but it's a thing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2021 00:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
Narsham posted:I am depressed by your somewhat hateful and false depiction of Delenn. Minbari caste systems are not fixed (we witness a conversion on Neroon's part and all he has to do is make a public declaration), it is unclear how their leadership is chosen but they appear to have at least a somewhat representative system, and Delenn turns down multiple leadership positions over the course of the show. I find it disheartening that Clark and ISN's transparent propaganda smearing Sheridan in part through racial animus directed at the Minbari generally and Delenn specifically has somehow crept into your post as valid. There's a lot of valid concerns about Delenn, and the show highlights several, but this is not worthy of you. If vast majority of people are peasants, then they should get more say than the elites. Minbari government is bit based on 3 estates, where tiny minorities of Nobles and Clergy held more say than the Peasants. In show the mobility between castes is possible, but treated as something special, not common. A deathbed conversion of a one of the most powerful Minbari wouldn't have been such a power move, if it was considered common thing to do. All governments in Babylon 5 have their failings. Minbari problem is their rigid caste structure that's based on obeying their betters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2021 00:48
|
|
