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Yawgmoft posted:Season 1: oh man conscription is so terrible. Thank God we don't do that and thus are far more moral Did you miss the two whole episodes where Giad has done everything they can to convince the 86 to retire from fighting and live a normal life, including in this episode where the infrantryman encourages them to quit the battle and return home after Shin puts down Eugene?
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Oct 20, 2021 02:38
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MonsterEnvy posted:Yeah, I get the same impression. The 86 seem to just be kind of broken which is why they are going back to the fighting. Kinda feels like the Spartan-II's in a way, they probably could retire by now; but keep going and doing missions until they finally wither away because they know of no other life than the one ONI forced them to have. Nitrousoxide posted:Did you miss the two whole episodes where Giad has done everything they can to convince the 86 to retire from fighting and live a normal life, including in this episode where the infrantryman encourages them to quit the battle and return home after Shin puts down Eugene? Tbf I am not exactly sure what their point is and just might be a joke which I'm not quite catching.
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Oct 20, 2021 02:43
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 Apparently, in the span between episode 2 and 3, Shin enlisted in the military, was assigned to a battalion (about 1,000 men), and then nearly everyone else died except Spearhead (and the guy who was driving the truck?). With how quickly entire battalion seem to get eliminated, the draft has to be implemented or else they literally won't have enough men to hold back the incoming robot hordes, and IIRC they need a huge amount of men because they need to maintain a deep perimeter of dozens or hundreds of miles to keep those huge Legion railguns from getting within range of the cities. However, it seems more likely that they will run out of oil and ammo before they run out of men.
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Oct 20, 2021 03:03
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Moofia Boss Val posted:
I mean, it'd be reasonable for them to institute a draft if push comes to shove, but I don't think we see any evidence of a draft yet. Eugene volunteered and there's no indication that he did so to get a better position by volunteering (Officer's School) vs waiting for the draft to pick him out for a less prestigious position.
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Oct 20, 2021 03:08
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Moofia Boss Val posted:
It's possible because Shin's team wanted to head into the thick of it, things were worse for them then the other guys, plus they are using less armored mechs. Also it's mentioned the battalion got split up. Also I don't think the Legion has railguns. The Lowe and Dinosauria both just had big cannons. Edit: Oh yeah the Legion did have that massive artillery thing late last season, but that was implied to be super new as Spearhead had not seen it before.
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Oct 20, 2021 03:46
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i suspect that even after a revolution and a decade-long war against murder drones, giad is still vastly larger, richer and more populous than san magnolia ever was.
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Oct 20, 2021 04:19
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Nitrousoxide posted:Did you miss the two whole episodes where Giad has done everything they can to convince the 86 to retire from fighting and live a normal life, including in this episode where the infrantryman encourages them to quit the battle and return home after Shin puts down Eugene? I saw the two episodes where the thank you for your service now die in a meat grinder for the chance at a better life society fundamentally cannot understand that being literal walking dead for five years has fundamentally warped the brains of six outcast children while they cling to the idea that they could make it out alive when they very likely will not, yes.
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Oct 20, 2021 05:15
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Yawgmoft posted:I saw the two episodes where the thank you for your service now die in a meat grinder for the chance at a better life society fundamentally cannot understand that being literal walking dead for five years has fundamentally warped the brains of six outcast children while they cling to the idea that they could make it out alive when they very likely will not, yes. What are you talking about. No one has asked anyone to go die in a Meat grinder. And everyone in Giad has been against them fighting the Legion. Even the Lady who had the new mechs built, just wanted them as Test Pilots, not in actual military service. Giad does not even have conscription.
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Oct 20, 2021 07:18
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The US also does not have conscription and yet https://www.facingsouth.org/2020/01/student-debt-crisis-fueling-poverty-draft Giad is overall a better place than Magnolia but it sure as hell isn't in a good spot either.
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Oct 20, 2021 08:36
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You'd think the therapists would flag the 86ers as having severe PTSD and label them as unfit for further service for the time being.
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Oct 20, 2021 13:03
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Moofia Boss Val posted:
There is another option: there has never been a full strength battalion. It's an administrative fiction to get Spearhead an independent deployment.
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Oct 20, 2021 13:28
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TheCoach posted:The US also does not have conscription and yet https://www.facingsouth.org/2020/01/student-debt-crisis-fueling-poverty-draft They're also kind of under attack by a zombie army, so "Not in a good spot" isn't exactly surprising.
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Oct 20, 2021 14:16
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Gladi posted:There is another option: there has never been a full strength battalion. It's an administrative fiction to get Spearhead an independent deployment. Also of note, their "Divisions" are about 500 strong in Giad, while they're over 6000 strong in Japan and the US. So I wouldn't go deep on this point to try and estimate casualties. Their "battalions" may not really be the same size as they are in our world.
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Oct 20, 2021 14:18
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Gladi posted:There is another option: there has never been a full strength battalion. It's an administrative fiction to get Spearhead an independent deployment. That'd be darkly amusing that the reason a lot of Giad soldiers seem to view them with suspicion is because of rumours that were a result of trying to help them. MonsterEnvy posted:What are you talking about. No one has asked anyone to go die in a Meat grinder. And everyone in Giad has been against them fighting the Legion. Even the Lady who had the new mechs built, just wanted them as Test Pilots, not in actual military service. I think what Yawgmoth is confusing is that Giad's President insisted they go through officer school to have the best post-war prospects. Which is amusing as the same wasn't true in San Magnolia where people generally say that Lena is wasting her time as post-war prospects will be minimal for officers.
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Oct 20, 2021 14:25
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Moofia Boss Val posted:
I'm guessing you googled 'how many men in a battalion' for that number, but Shin isn't an infantryman, which is where that number comes from. There isn't really a direct modern equivalent since there aren't a lot of 1 or 2 person tanks or AFV's out there, but if you assume a 1:1 organizational structure to a tank battalion you're looking at something between 40-50 vehicles to a battalion, or between 40-100 people depending on how many of them use the dual pilot structure. Plus a lot of extras with support staff like combat engineers, but those don't count for what we're talking about because none of them would be staffed by anyone who outranks Shin. If I had to take a wild guess just using the US as an example it'd look like this: Company Level 3x platoon - 4 tanks each and a Lieutenant in charge of each platoon. 1 company HQ - 2 tanks with one led by a captain, the other by a lieutenant serving as an XO. Battalion Level 3xcompany - As above. 1 Battalion HQ plus additional support units - Likely a major or a Lt. Colonel in charge. For Shin to be in charge basically requires ~4-5 guys to die, the company commanders and the battalion officer(s), which isn't particularly weird given that this is anime and officers tend to lead from the front. And that assumes that the rumor mill of 'supposedly all his officers died' is accurate, when the reality could easily be 'they quietly put this guy in charge because holy gently caress is he good at killing robots.' A draft isn't out of the question, but tbh battles with legion seem to be purely moderately sized fighting robot based because again, anime. We don't exactly see a lot (any?) infantrymen taking pot shots with man portable heavy weapons, which mostly makes sense. This isn't the sort of fight where throwing a lot of bodies into the meat grinder is going to help. Practically speaking their limiting factor is almost certainly how fast they can produce moderately sized fighting robots to fight the other robots. You're going to run out of 'tanks' long before you start needing to dip into manpower to try and force them to hit their preset kill limit.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think what Yawgmoth is confusing is that Giad's President insisted they go through officer school to have the best post-war prospects. Which is amusing as the same wasn't true in San Magnolia where people generally say that Lena is wasting her time as post-war prospects will be minimal for officers. I think I'm not making myself clear. Post war prospects is basically a myth. These people are volunteering and their reasons are very American: fight the enemy, make a better life for my family, pay for college. We just watched an entire unit get shredded, and the Giad volunteer character we focused on along with the 86 is dead. What I'm saying is we have done the "we send conscripts out to die for us" plot. We are now in the "we have created a mythology of improving your life by joining the military so people sign up for the meat grinder" plot.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:29
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Yawgmoft posted:I think I'm not making myself clear. Post war prospects is basically a myth. These people are volunteering and their reasons are very American: fight the enemy, make a better life for my family, pay for college. We just watched an entire unit get shredded, and the Giad volunteer character we focused on along with the 86 is dead. What I'm saying is we have done the "we send conscripts out to die for us" plot. We are now in the "we have created a mythology of improving your life by joining the military so people sign up for the meat grinder" plot. I don't think this makes a lot of sense though, the GI Bill did improve the lives of millions of people who returned from the war and basically set the stage for the next few decades of constant prosperity; people are dying because they're fighting zombie murder bots and their weapons are barely able to stem the tide; we have no evidence that society when the war ends would reject veterans; we're supposed to take Ernst's words at face value that yes, Giad will take care of them, and their prospects for finding jobs will be better when the war ends, if it ends. It kinda sounds like you're implying they'll end up in like a modern American Veteran Affairs sort of situation where they're neglected or something but that doesn't seem to be remotely true; the need for people to fight the enemy is clear and present; the offer that things will be better when the war ends is being made in good faith I don't see where in the text there's any evidence otherwise.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:35
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I guess we'll see. Personally I think the anti war show with mechs will continue to examine anti war themes.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:39
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Also, Ernst's point wasn't "If you join the military, your future prospects will be better." It was "If you're going to join the military regardless, going in as an officer will be better for your future prospects than if you go in as a recruit."
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Oct 20, 2021 15:40
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KillHour posted:Also, Ernst's point wasn't "If you join the military, your future prospects will be better." It was "If you're going to join the military regardless, going in as an officer will be better for your future prospects than if you go in as a recruit." That too. Yawgmoft posted:I guess we'll see. Personally I think the anti war show with mechs will continue to examine anti war themes. There are various kind of anti-war themes; I think its a stretch to suggest though that this anime's anti-war themes are that prevalent though, I don't think it suggests that its bad to engage in self-defence. More broadly I suspect there's themes about how starting a war is often Very Bad with the Legion representing how uncontrollable war is, how you don't know who is going to die, and it turns against you; with the revolution and subsequent successors forced to clean up the mess of their predecessors. I don't think it follows to suggest "anti-war themes" means anyone who volunteers is being exploited; because the fact that the threat is absolutely real would undercut this if it were the message. Like what if the Legion wasn't a tangible enemy but was instead capitalism or climate change, it wouldn't make sense to suggest that anyone in the work who correctly identifies it as a threat that needs to be engaged and "fought" is just being lied to. Far more likely the themes are more about exploring how different societies react to the pressures of existential conflict; which societies embrace ecofascism and which ones take the risk to overthrow the old regime and make a stab at fixing the problem on their own and more egalitarian terms. If you actually do substitute the Legion as Climate Change and the governments of San Magnolia and Giad Imperiacy as different flavours of Capitalist political systems I think it holds up pretty consistency; Giad had a revolution that overthrow the old capitalist structure that caused the current crisis in order to have a more enduring solution to the problem; San Magnolia decided to wall themselves off and hope the problem goes away while pretending it isn't happening while throwing their undesirables under the treads of the enemies tanks.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:18
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I don't know about the light novel, but this anime thus far isn't really "anti-war". There is pretty much no focus on the Legion's creation. It's a horde of murder robots coming to wipe out humanity. Fighting them is sort of a given. The only interesting thing here is how San Magnolia's society is structured with the elites trying to dispose of undesirables and the media insisting that all is well, but that didn't require the war to happen. I don't think mecha really does anti-war stories well at all. Since the original Gundam came out, most real robot anime is pretty much just the same story about a boy crying about having to kill people but still doing it anyway for 50 episodes, and in the end nothing has actually changed; war will happen again in a few years anyway because each side is corrupt. Most shows don't bring anything new to the table that 0079 didn't already do 40 years ago. The anti-war messaging also rings hollow when the entire entertainment appeal of the show is the fighting being depicted as cool. It's rather interesting when you get a mecha show like Full Metal Panic where they don't even bother with the crying at all, just accept that fighting is just way the of life and get on with the battles.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:51
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I'm pretty sure the point being made with giad is less "giad doesn't give a poo poo about its conscripts and is just pretending it does" and more "even if your home country takes every measure possible to protect you while you're fighting and ensures that after you come home you'll be well taken care of, fighting on the frontlines still sucks dick and being on the right side of a war doesn't mean you aren't still going to die horribly" It's comparing san magnolia's "the worst way to treat soldiers" with giad's "it would be impossible to treat them better" and showing that whatever difference giad is able to make, they still can't take the fighting out of the war.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:34
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maybe giad should start researching unmanned autonomous weapons.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:35
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Moofia Boss Val posted:I don't know about the light novel, but this anime thus far isn't really "anti-war". There is pretty much no focus on the Legion's creation. It's a horde of murder robots coming to wipe out humanity. Fighting them is sort of a given. The only interesting thing here is how San Magnolia's society is structured with the elites trying to dispose of undesirables and the media insisting that all is well, but that didn't require the war to happen. No this is definitely anti war. It isn't pacifist but the messaging is definitely that war sucks rear end Also I don't think any of that stuff makes anti war stories bad
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Oct 20, 2021 18:36
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Here's an anti war message from the show: the mere presence or threat of warfare empowers the ruling class to make whatever major social changes would most benefit them (and only them) with little chance for reform. the war serves as an all purpose blank check for justifying the actions of the government (no matter how awful) and as a justification for the citizenry to continue to look the other way on the government's atrocities and/or them blatantly lying about those atrocities. this holds true regardless of if the government's actions actually aid the war effort or not. War sucks and everything it touches turns awful. That's not the same as you shouldn't respond to an existential threat - but even when fighting is definitely the right choice (in this case, it is) you still are going to suffer for it
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Oct 20, 2021 18:57
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What did the current government of Giad do to make social changes though? The previous ruling class was overthrown because of the war.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:13
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I dunno we've only seen 3 episodes of giad so far! But given how the other stuff with giad is going I assume that whatever commentary they want to make is seeing what happens when a different path from san magnolia is followed, rather than repeating the same message again
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Oct 20, 2021 19:20
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I for one think it’s great that a shooty robot anime can stir up this much discussion!
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Oct 21, 2021 19:53
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Talorat posted:I for one think it’s great that a shooty robot anime can stir up this much discussion! It's a good anime.
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Oct 21, 2021 21:04
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86 isn't actually all that shooty tbh
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Oct 21, 2021 22:22
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The action in 86 isn't bad for what it's point in the service of the story is, but if it doesn't really seem like a highlight in and of itself Spider mecha gotta be zippy and nimble, and these... ain't unless Shin is behind the wheel OnimaruXLR fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 21, 2021 22:50
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OnimaruXLR posted:The action in 86 isn't bad for what it's point in the service of the story is, but if it doesn't really seem like a highlight in and of itself I mean, the rest of Spearhead are at least pretty decent at zipping around, and will surely get better now they've all got Reginleifs.
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Oct 22, 2021 02:29
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I appreciate the animation in shin's fighting, there's some good attention to his speed coming from frequent, precise jumps and manipulating the momentum of his mech. It's a really good display of shin being a monster in the same lovely machine everyone else uses
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Oct 22, 2021 18:02
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So in this episode we see That the Legion seem to be planning an offensive of some sort. We learn about Frederica's knight, including how he's got the same family name as Shin. Frederica plays the role of Lena in urging Shin to think about his future, and we also learn that at least two other countries have survived beyond the two we know about. Shin's team will be joining combat operations soon as they get moved from testing into the combat forces. Also, in the credits we see Lena back in the Republic for a brief scene
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Oct 23, 2021 17:40
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Nitrousoxide posted:So in this episode we see Well she said Kiri was not a direct descendent of the Nouzen's so he and Shin would not be actually related. Though it appears the Nouzen's were a notable family in the Empire.
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Oct 23, 2021 17:56
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Maybe it's something like way way way way way back someone from the Nouzen family probably moved West to what would become San Magnolia? Interesting if there is a connection there. Other episode stuff: Seems like something like a Battle of the Bulge situation is developing, with Giad receiving intel that there's an attack coming but doubting the size of it. Partly because they don't realize Shin's special ability to hear Legion communications, and partly I imagine the Legion is probably actively hiding the numbers its moving around to make Giad think the attack is smaller than it is. Not that I think it matters though, I don't really get the impression if they did accept Shin's report that they could do anything differently? It kinda feels like Giad is already doing everything they can and themsome.
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Oct 24, 2021 03:19
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Raenir Salazar posted:Maybe it's something like way way way way way back someone from the Nouzen family probably moved West to what would become San Magnolia? Interesting if there is a connection there. His family was said to have originally been from Giad back in season 1.
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Oct 24, 2021 03:39
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Also it seems like San Magnolia is about to be crushed, that map didn't look good and Lena seems to be literally writing "if I do not survive this" letter, guessing by her emotional state.
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Oct 24, 2021 22:10
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Actually very happy with this season post the first 2 episodes. Back to what made it very good.
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Oct 25, 2021 10:08
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If these current episodes are as good as season 1 episodes I suspect it has a lot to do with those first two episodes being setup.
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Oct 25, 2021 20:07
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