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CharlestheHammer posted:It did change just not to your arbitrary standards. Then the show should be about that. Everything leading up to the final seasons was about how things were going to change. Magic and dragons had returned. So had the white walkers. And a winter that could last generations was about to set in. Instead it all just peters out.
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Oct 24, 2021 11:43
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Alhazred posted:Then the show should be about that. Wait you mean a big bad threat happened and the heroes defeated it. And your shocked this happened. Did you think the world was going to end
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Oct 24, 2021 12:05
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait you mean a big bad threat happened and the heroes defeated it. That would be a lot cooler
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Oct 24, 2021 12:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait you mean a big bad threat happened and the heroes defeated it. Honestly, yeah. Everything about the series would lead you to believe that the "heroes" (aka, a bunch of idiots and assholes) were hosed. The show explicitly stated many times leading up to the last season that if they didn't all work together against the white walkers they would be hosed, and then they kept squabbling and not working together. And then ??????? everything turns out fine for some reason. GRRM/the showrunners were cowards for not writing a "white walkers win" ending.
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Oct 24, 2021 12:11
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Yeah, the show explicitly set out to try and subvert tropes (a mc dying early, etc.). It’s 100% reasonable to think maybe the group of dumb squabbling morons that always acted with narcissistically short sighted self interest might lose to the climate change metaphor.
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Oct 24, 2021 12:20
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I think the ending works better if it was all manipulated by 3-eyed raven who has now possessed bran to become an immortal god king. Which you could sort of infer if you’ve read the books, but certainly wasn’t even hinted at in the show.
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Oct 24, 2021 12:20
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I guess if you expected that then I understand being underwhelmed. But I never got that impression. GOT was a story where bad things happened but it still felt like a story. Where their was going to be a definitive end built upon throughout the story. Oh and a lot of filler
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Oct 24, 2021 12:37
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https://twitter.com/ClassicShowbiz/status/1452062382847500291?s=20 https://twitter.com/ClassicShowbiz/status/1449426945209364480
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Oct 24, 2021 13:22
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Is that a loving corncob
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Oct 24, 2021 13:26
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I dunno, when you spend literally years talking up this Night King guy as an unstoppable badass leading a world-ending army of the dead and it turns out his secret weakness is getting stabbed...once...by a dagger...I think people are bound to think it's kinda anticlimatic. I mean line 'em up and you can go through twenty-three Night Kings in the length of time it'll take you to take out one Julius Caesar.
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Oct 24, 2021 13:28
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Is that a loving corncob Having cut my teeth as a graphic designer doing newspaper ads for rural craft shows, yeah, that’s corn. No, it doesn’t have a reason to be there. Someone paid extra to put a picture in that ad and by god, they’re gonna have a picture in it.
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Oct 24, 2021 13:31
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Maybe for would get you cancelled in the 50s It was a different time
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Oct 24, 2021 13:41
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:Having cut my teeth as a graphic designer doing newspaper ads for rural craft shows, yeah, that’s corn. No, it doesn’t have a reason to be there. Someone paid extra to put a picture in that ad and by god, they’re gonna have a picture in it. I think the joke is meant to be that it'll be corny.
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Oct 24, 2021 13:44
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Every couple years a successful comedian complains about cancel culture or whatever term is popular because they tried a joke that didn’t get laughs. It’s usually not even for it being offensive and people are outraged, it just didn’t land. Like Jerry Seinfeld and his “Gay French King” joke.
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Oct 24, 2021 14:32
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Alhazred posted:It's more that the show keeps building up to finale where there's going to be a big change in Westeros. Winter is coming and no one is really prepared for it. Dany wants to break the wheel. Magic and dragons have returned. A lot of the big noble houses gets more or less wiped out. And then in the end everything returns to normal. I found the whole scene kind of comic in that there are almost no noble houses left. The majority of the negotiating happens between bit characters we’ve barely seen, like the psycho kid who breastfeeds at 12 and the guy who spent the whole series locked in a basement, plus Sam who is only legitimate because he’s the only member of his family still alive. I know it’s a “happy” ending because a threat has been defeated, but it does seem like kind of a post-apocalyptic ending as well in that their society really has been hollowed out and they’re trying to move on in the smoking crater of the capitol city where millions have just been burned alive.
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Oct 24, 2021 14:44
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:
It doesn't feel like a post-apocalyptic ending though. Everyone is acting like it's back to normal.
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Oct 24, 2021 15:02
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GRRM had bullet points of two or three entire books that didn't work narratively or structurally, which he gave to two showrunners who didn't give a poo poo and figured they could wing it, and the end result was unwatchable garbage that people in the last two pages have spent more time trying to make sense of than the people who got paid millions to make it did. It's media that didn't age well in real time!
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Oct 24, 2021 15:23
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I found the whole scene kind of comic in that there are almost no noble houses left. The majority of the negotiating happens between bit characters we’ve barely seen, like the psycho kid who breastfeeds at 12 and the guy who spent the whole series locked in a basement, plus Sam who is only legitimate because he’s the only member of his family still alive. * a mariachi band plays the GoT theme in the burnt out ruins of Kings Landing *
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Oct 24, 2021 15:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait you mean a big bad threat happened and the heroes defeated it. It worked out pretty well for the finale of Dinosaurs!
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Oct 24, 2021 16:08
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Off the GOT stuff, why not one super hosed up Harry Potter thing? Love potions. Why the gently caress are rape drugs totally legal and cheap/easy enough for schoolkids to get or make? Strange Magic was one WTF movie from George Lucas, but love potions were never shown as good things.
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Oct 24, 2021 16:15
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Cowslips Warren posted:Off the GOT stuff, why not one super hosed up Harry Potter thing?
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Oct 24, 2021 16:22
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Toshimo posted:It worked out pretty well for the finale of Dinosaurs! No one has thought about that show in thirty years
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Oct 24, 2021 16:23
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Tiggum posted:He's saying that Scots are stingy. That's the entirety of his self-described "best joke". Scots being super cheap is an age old stereotype, there's even a Disney franchise built entirely around the joke.
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Oct 24, 2021 17:28
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Scots being super cheap is an age old stereotype, there's even a Disney franchise built entirely around the joke. It's pretty funny. That and the stereotype that Scots are ill tempered elementary school grounds keepers, that The Simpsons cemented in pop culture.
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Oct 24, 2021 17:55
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Captain Monkey posted:Yeah, the show explicitly set out to try and subvert tropes (a mc dying early, etc.). It’s 100% reasonable to think maybe the group of dumb squabbling morons that always acted with narcissistically short sighted self interest might lose to the climate change metaphor. I think the “subverting tropes” thing is overstated.
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Oct 24, 2021 18:02
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christmas boots posted:I think the “subverting tropes” thing is overstated. When the inspiration for the story is that it's basically a fantasy jazzed up version of events 600 years old I think "subverting" is a stretch.
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Oct 24, 2021 18:06
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To be fair it’s no really that close to the war of the roses. You can see that he definitely took some inspiration from parts but the roses was a long long event that took on like 40years. Including like a decade where the war looked like it was over until the winner died do you being very unhealthy
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Oct 24, 2021 18:17
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christmas boots posted:I think the “subverting tropes” thing is overstated. I mean when done well, like most things, it can make you think or give life to a dying genre. When done poorly, its heavy handed and muddled.
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Oct 24, 2021 18:22
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Mooseontheloose posted:I mean when done well, like most things, it can make you think or give life to a dying genre. Sure, but in the case of GoT (and the book series) specifically, the plot wasn't just written around doing the least expected thing at every turn. Ned Stark didn't die just because you expect the main viewpoint character to survive everything, he died because this was a setting where realpolitik trumps a pure-hearted hero. I think where this drove toward the ending was that Jon, who is a very traditional fantasy hero - a boy who is the secret heir to the old legitimate dynasty, who brings together the squabbling factions to face against the world-ending villains and leads them to victory, who saw off every challenger and even came back from death itself - is sent to a life sentence and the throne given to some unrelated kid because that's just more convenient for everybody.
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Oct 24, 2021 18:29
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The families were broadened and the time was condensed but the major upheavals are all represented. King Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Ned, Robb, Stannis, Tywin, Walder Frey and Daenerys all have direct analogues to the events. It's the stuff that was changed from the back half of book three onward, when he decided to go from a trilogy to a series that starts shifting away. It also happens to be when the politics start getting a bit wonkier. He also pulled in some stuff from elsewhere in English history, like William the Conqueror's successor being a blood thirsty poo poo that is 'accidentally' killed on a hunting trip by Lord Tyrell.
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Oct 24, 2021 18:39
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I mean they don’t have the winning king losing a battle and dying completely reversing the course of the war. Then the king winning only to have his advisor turn on him and put him in house arrest. Which he only escaped because the nobles refused to take orders without seeing king. So the advisor took him off house arrest only for him to just wander away. Forcing the advisor to join forces with the first kings Queen and son. Those events are two of the most important events not represented
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Oct 24, 2021 18:50
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Cowslips Warren posted:Off the GOT stuff, why not one super hosed up Harry Potter thing? I watched a video on The Craft and it’s successors recently, and one takeaway was that they handled the love potion given to Skeet Ulrich’s character in such a way that he’s not instantly in love with his mark. He’s mostly confused as to why he’s suddenly feeling like he should dote on this person and be around her all the time. His friends try to get him to act normal and he’s not BUT I AM IN LOVE…he’s like, drat, I should go do that, but imma sit next to Nancy instead, I guess. It’s more like the idea that a hypnotized person might be compelled to do something, but only if they were already okay with doing it. Coercion only takes you so far.
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Oct 24, 2021 19:05
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CharlestheHammer posted:To be fair it’s no really that close to the war of the roses. You can see that he definitely took some inspiration from parts but the roses was a long long event that took on like 40years. Including like a decade where the war looked like it was over until the winner died do you being very unhealthy The funny thing is, the reason why the younger characters in the books are way too young for the actions they take is that GRRM intended the narrative to span a generation like the war of the roses, he just realized partway through he had no idea how to do it.
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Oct 24, 2021 19:12
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Tenebrais posted:Sure, but in the case of GoT (and the book series) specifically, the plot wasn't just written around doing the least expected thing at every turn. Ned Stark didn't die just because you expect the main viewpoint character to survive everything, he died because this was a setting where realpolitik trumps a pure-hearted hero. I think that was the one beat I found pretty satisfying in the finale. Jon never had a place in the Seven Kingdoms outside of the Watch which doesn't really exist anymore. He seemingly hated every moment of being King in the North and was insanely comfortable at the prospect of handing off his authority to the first Targaryan he saw. The only time we really see him happy is with the wildlings in the north and so his "punishment" such as it is, is effectively banishing him to the place he always wanted to be anyway.
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Oct 24, 2021 19:14
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rodbeard posted:The funny thing is, the reason why the younger characters in the books are way too young for the actions they take is that GRRM intended the narrative to span a generation like the war of the roses, he just realized partway through he had no idea how to do it. This is one thing that baffles me about creative endeavors: do most people just jump in to do something without having any idea how to end it? Is this a “burning the ships” style motivational technique? I can’t fathom even starting the process without having at least least a high level idea of the major beats a plot is going for.
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Oct 24, 2021 19:37
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AceOfFlames posted:This is one thing that baffles me about creative endeavors: do most people just jump in to do something without having any idea how to end it? Is this a “burning the ships” style motivational technique? I can’t fathom even starting the process without having at least least a high level idea of the major beats a plot is going for. I mean I think he knew the ending, just the middle is what he struggled with
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Oct 24, 2021 19:47
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AceOfFlames posted:This is one thing that baffles me about creative endeavors: do most people just jump in to do something without having any idea how to end it? Is this a “burning the ships” style motivational technique? I can’t fathom even starting the process without having at least least a high level idea of the major beats a plot is going for. He almost certainly started with an outline, but sometimes things change in the actual execution and you realize parts of the outline aren't working the way you envisioned them. There's also a philosophy where you let things develop sort of organically by writing more in terms of how the characters would believable act than how you get to the next plot point. In Martin's own words: quote:“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.” I think there's merit to both philosophies but Martin is a great example of how that approach can backfire in a big way.
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Oct 24, 2021 19:50
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christmas boots posted:I think the “subverting tropes” thing is overstated. Yeah, I can see why people find Ned Stark's death surprising because he's written to be the classic plodding do-gooder hero, but he's just a False Protagonist. A story technique so common and well known that it has its own Wikipedia article.
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Oct 24, 2021 20:16
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I am still wondering where he got the title Honorable Ned Stark. We don't see him doing anything overtly noble or honorable unless you count him raising Jon directly (and I still have the theory the only reason the kid was smothered as a baby was Ned didn't let Cat around him), and in which case that seems more of an insult. Lots of lords had bastards, and it was fine to send provisions, but you don't raise them with your trueborn kids in GOT. Hell, had he just told one more lie to Cat, that the baby was Benjen's bastard, Cat might have actually liked the kid. A bastard nephew is not as much of a threat as a bastard son.
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Oct 24, 2021 20:28
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Ned Stark in the books is like 34.
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Oct 24, 2021 20:35
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