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zerofiend posted:I think it's more likely to be Glustrod, not Euz. Yeah, same. I look at it this way. If it is Euz, what can anybody do about it? What can anybody do to him, the Almighty Euz, Vanquisher of Demons, Sealer of Gates, Father of the World? He doesn't exist on the same power scale as anything else yet revealed in the setting. A threat as strong as him would feel out of place without a 'Actually none of that is true and it was just a myth' thing and that would just feel lame imo. Glustrod just makes more sense to me. First, Glustrod nuked the old empire and disappeared as the result of a catastrophic failure when he tried to open the gates to hell, and so him returning would make sense. Second, the sons of Euz are on a level that mortals can deal with. Bayaz, after all, killed Kanadias and maybe Juvens.
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Oct 22, 2021 06:52
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Yes, but how do you know he's actually all that? It doesn't have to be all bullshit either ofc, could be something in the middle.
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Oct 22, 2021 06:54
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drat, I’m excited. It’s gonna be a long wait for the next book(s).
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Oct 22, 2021 07:15
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I think to me it's just the idea that he created magic essentially, and Joe wants a book about the return of magic. But yeah I guess glustrod makes sense, especially if the seed opens up the seal and brings magic back
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Oct 22, 2021 07:40
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Crespolini posted:Don't you think this might show the weakness of viewing this so much through the lens of contemporary cspam style us politics? ...no A book largely about politics written in the 21st century cannot be divorced from the 21st-century author's views on politics, we've been over this. what is this post asking me if I've Learned My Lesson because I missed an obscure historical reference also they're British politics too, there's a lot of overlap That said once I figured out what search terms to look for I found some cool historical sources on it. Obviously it went a bit better for the historical French than the allegorical Burners. Interesting read. Alikchi posted:
took a chance that these spoiler tags were ok for me and it paid off, whew And yeah, my favorite book in the new trilogy was probably The Trouble With Peace, which touched on modern-style politics the least and was more character-driven, but the back half of Wisdom of Crowds could still surprise me e: plus it has plenty of The North content which is always the best part anyway loquacius fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 14:49
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Alikchi posted:
Going for a new try at formulating what I find so jarring: Delegates is the key word. The class character of the Burners and Breakers is basically all worker and poor. But their revolution still echos the French Revolution, the very definition of a bourgeois revolution. It's all Sans-culottes with no National Guard and no wealthy elected delegates, but suddenly after taking power militarily they form a parliament full of the high nobility?
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Oct 22, 2021 17:02
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Can anyone recommend a book/series that scratches the same itch as these?
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Oct 22, 2021 18:48
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RCarr posted:Can anyone recommend a book/series that scratches the same itch as these? In what way were you thinking? There are several different "itches" that the First Law et al could scratch: satire of traditional fantasy tropes, realism (as opposed to idealism) in the approach toward war, immersive high-fantasy settings with rare magic, fantasy vikings that are cool but crude (and party dudes), etc etc
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Oct 22, 2021 19:28
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loquacius posted:realism (as opposed to idealism) in the approach toward war, immersive high-fantasy settings with rare magic, fantasy vikings that are cool but crude (and party dudes), etc etc Mostly these three
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Oct 22, 2021 19:33
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Try the Raven's Mark series by Ed McDonald.
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Oct 22, 2021 19:40
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KJ Parker's books are always my go to. The Engineer trilogy, in particular.
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Oct 22, 2021 19:42
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The Raven's Shadow series by Anthony Ryan has all three of those but the vikings are actually pirates and are not a major focus of the story so really it only has two of them e: also apparently the third book is v bad, I've only read the first two e2: also the Gentleman Bastard series by Scott Lynch is a good rare-magic setting, but, it's about rogues rather than fighters, and they're fantasy Italians rather than fantasy Vikings, and the only wars so far are crime wars, and also fair warning it's one of those series that will never be finished loquacius fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 20:14
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loquacius posted:The Raven's Shadow series by Anthony Ryan has all three of those but the vikings are actually pirates and are not a major focus of the story so really it only has two of them It's not *very* bad, but it's also not good. Darkrenown posted:Try the Raven's Mark series by Ed McDonald. Yes, absolutely this. I wish there were more than three books and a couple of short stories. Devorum fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 22, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 20:28
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Devorum posted:Yes, absolutely this. I wish there were more then three books and a couple of short stories. I’ll check this out, thanks!
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Oct 22, 2021 20:29
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Are the coal and oil they're pulling out of the ground now preserved demons?
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Oct 23, 2021 00:41
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von Metternich posted:
Just finished it. This one sentence sums it up for me. Out of the 9 books this is the one I've enjoyed the least tbh.
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Oct 23, 2021 01:25
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I've been wondering how many people criticizing how the revolution is depicted in the Wisdom of Crowds are not from a country which had an actual revolution that turned to poo poo at some point in their history.
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Oct 23, 2021 19:19
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Warden posted:I've been wondering how many people criticizing how the revolution is depicted in the Wisdom of Crowds are not from a country which had an actual revolution that turned to poo poo at some point in their history. I mean I'm gonna guess most of the people ITT are American...
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Oct 23, 2021 19:37
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Booyah
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Oct 23, 2021 20:10
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I wonder if there are monarchists who chafe at the books’ depiction of aristocracy
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Oct 23, 2021 20:22
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Ainsley McTree posted:I wonder if there are monarchists who chafe at the books’ depiction of aristocracy I'd doubt it because the rightful king is the most sympathetically portrayed character in the trilogy
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Oct 23, 2021 20:30
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RCarr posted:Can anyone recommend a book/series that scratches the same itch as these? I would recommend the Priest of Bones tetralogy by Peter McLean. It has crazy murder vikings, but they're mostly a rival criminal syndicate. It has some humor, grimness and double crosses and each book is self-contained enough that you can end the series where you want. The third book was split and is already out, the fourth book and conclusion will be out early next year.
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Oct 23, 2021 23:32
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After taking a short break I ploughed through The Heroes, Red Country, and the new trilogy. I liked them all better than Best Served Cold, which is definitely my least favorite Abercrombie book. Red Country was my favorite of the stand alones. The new trilogy started out really strong, but I thought Savine, Rikke and Broad's stories got less interesting with each book (especially Broad, who was one of my faves in A Little Hatred and became so flat and uninteresting by The Wisdom of Crowds), and I never liked Leo much to begin with. After the end of the original trilogy I wanted to see what was next for all of the main characters, but after this new one I feel like I've already seen enough of most of the new generation. Still really liked the first two books though. I don't have a setting preference, but for the next book(s) I'm hoping for: 1) no big twists at the end that invalidate everything you knew about a character / what they've been doing, 2) no union vs north war (just gone to the well too many times), and 3) no characters with a bloody past trying to better themselves but they love violence too much (ditto).
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Oct 25, 2021 21:38
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I would absolutely take more standalones taking place in the North entirely because the North is the best part of every book, but I agree that there have been too many North/Union wars already, to the point that I had trouble keeping them straight when older characters in the new trilogy talked about them e: I actually didn't read Best Served Cold because there wasn't any North content in it. Red Country at least had Northern characters
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Oct 25, 2021 22:29
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loquacius posted:I would absolutely take more standalones taking place in the North entirely because the North is the best part of every book, but I agree that there have been too many North/Union wars already, to the point that I had trouble keeping them straight when older characters in the new trilogy talked about them Is Shivers not enough northern for you?
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Oct 25, 2021 22:41
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Hopefully we get a trilogy of side stories next. Be fun to see what the Far West is up to now. Lot of failed revolutionaries eager to enact plans on a smaller scale. Monza's kid is interesting and could be fun to follow for a book. Logen hasn't been around for a minute, a collection of short stories as he gets older would work.
Relevant Tangent fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 25, 2021 |
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Oct 25, 2021 23:39
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Randallteal posted:After taking a short break I ploughed through The Heroes, Red Country, and the new trilogy. I liked them all better than Best Served Cold, which is definitely my least favorite Abercrombie book. Red Country was my favorite of the stand alones. The new trilogy started out really strong, but I thought Savine, Rikke and Broad's stories got less interesting with each book (especially Broad, who was one of my faves in A Little Hatred and became so flat and uninteresting by The Wisdom of Crowds), and I never liked Leo much to begin with. After the end of the original trilogy I wanted to see what was next for all of the main characters, but after this new one I feel like I've already seen enough of most of the new generation. Still really liked the first two books though. you didnt read sharp ends????
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Oct 25, 2021 23:45
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I'm now basically done with The Wisdom Of Crowds -- at least one Clover chapter left, got through what definitely felt like the ending of the book, and I gotta say, the Great Change being Glokta's puppetmaster plan felt kind of satisfying in the moment since I did not see it coming, but, it raises a lot of questions about my earlier objections and doesn't really lay them to rest. If Glokta knew Risinau was an idiot, why did he spend decades killing everybody smarter than him? If the point of him mastering the puppets in the first place was to keep people from doing anything stupid, why leave Judge alive? Why spend Vick's entire career sending her around to spy on and kill off everyone who might have actually done a good job, but leave the obvious psychopath in place? If the only problem with the Valbeck uprising in Glokta's eyes was that Risinau hosed up the timing, why kill everyone involved except Risinau and especially except Judge? He seems really bad at his job!!! Glokta's only real goal being to get Bayaz out of the picture would sort of explain it since that's the only real thing he accomplished -- Dark Leo running the Union and the Closed Council being half full of the same kind of people who were there before and half full of Savine's capitalist buddies doesn't really seem like a particular improvement on the actual machinery of state, especially w/r/t preventing massive-scale capitalist exploitation like the kind that got them into the mess in the first place, but at least Bayaz now being a non-entity means that real progress is theoretically possible, but that would have to be generations in the future since this revolution probably sucked all the revolutionary oxygen out of the room for quite some time. But then if, as has become more obvious as the book went on, Abercrombie's main inspiration for the whole storyline was the French Revolution specifically (complete with a Bonapartist reaction on a vastly sped-up timeline) I guess a satisfactory conclusion isn't really necessary anyway since historical France didn't permanently escape their monarchy until a century later with several more regime changes in the bag on the way (many of them imposed by foreign powers after a war).
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Nov 1, 2021 16:10
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Still a better outcome than I was half-expecting, as a lot of people probably were. When Vick was about to meet The Real Real Weaver I was like "oh god it's just loving Bayaz again isn't it" but good news it was only just loving Bayaz again in a metaphorical sense and not a literal one
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Nov 1, 2021 16:12
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I liked all the characters in the new trilogy. I think character work is what Abercrombie does best. World building is where he's the weakest. The world seems to have shrunk a lot since the Heroes. The cast of people needed to show the government chewing itself apart just wasn't there. I think he bit off more than he could chew by trying to depict a revolution. I said this in the first book of the trilogy, and I'll saying it again--we could have used a character who was emotionally invested in being a Breaker or a Burner instead of watching everything from an outsiders perspective who can't comprehend things. Orson, Savine, Leo, Vick, and Broad are all terrible viewpoints to show the anger of the common man. Vick comes the closest, with Vick being basically a hostage to survival. Broad could have been a good lens to look through but he kept dropping them but he was just a trope, another man in love with violence who refuses to admit he loves violence.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:26
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Okay one more post: really liked Rikke's storyline in this one, she really solidified herself as the best POV character in the new trilogy after everyone else's arc played out. But as I have said repeatedly, the North content is the best in every book anyway. Orso, conversely, was kind of in narrative limbo this entire book, I kind of feel like the only reason he didn't just get killed off at the beginning instead of the end is that Rikke wasn't in town to be the owl yet Oh, and one thing hasn't changed a bit since book 1: still really don't like Finree, man she hosed Leo up good. If you think I am maybe just particularly sensitive to parental figures emotionally beating down their kids without a single word of support for decades, you're absolutely right! That's how you get Leos! e: BananaNutkins posted:I liked all the characters in the new trilogy. I think character work is what Abercrombie does best. World building is where he's the weakest.  to all of this; seeding his antagonist factions with at least one POV character to show their side is the kind of thing Abercrombie does a lot anyway so it seems extra weird that he wouldn't do it this time. Broad in particular has been checked out this entire book, he seemed like a better representative in the first one.Also think he should have done it for the Gurkish empire tbh, the only POV character from that entire continent was Ferro and she killed more Gurkish than anybody else e2: ok Temple was technically from the continent, but, also not Gurkish loquacius fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Nov 1, 2021 16:27
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Okay one LAST more post: if, as it is heavily implied at the end of this book, Savine and Zuri are loving, how did Savine get taken by surprise by Zuri's heavily bandaged arms and legs, which I guess from context are related to her being an Eater in some way? Shouldn't she have, like, seen Zuri's arms at some point at the very least? I will accept "Savine is simply an extremely selfish lover" as an answer My next question was going to be "how did the Burners not find out Zuri was actually an Eater if they captured her under suspicion of Eaterdom and tortured her", but, I guess technically they could have in fact actually found out and simply not figured out what to do about it yet. Still think it would have come up at Savine's trial, though.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:44
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Wait where the heck was THAT implied? I never remotely got that impression.Ainsley McTree posted:Catching up on the thread after finally finishing the book; I saw a bunch of people mentioning KJ parker, any particularly recommended starting places for his works? I can see he has a bunch of trilogies but I can't tell if you're supposed to read them in chronological order or not For trilogies, I think The Fencer trilogy is more interesting (but more uneven) than The Engineer trilogy. God, KJ Parker is so loving underrated. I still find myself thinking about the goddamn bow.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:48
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I did not get any impression that Zuri and Savine were loving. What made you think that?
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Nov 1, 2021 18:48
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Darkrenown posted:I did not get any impression that Zuri and Savine were loving. What made you think that? Two passages (spoilers obv) quote:"You don't need to Highness me, Zuri, not when there's no one else here." quote:
Upon reread, not nearly as strongly implied as Leo gazing longingly at Jurand before stopping his train of thought abruptly in book 1, and combined with my observation from my last post not really an indication that anything had already happened as opposed to an indication that maybe Zuri wants something to in the future, and I may have just already been primed toward this train of thought by Savine's immediately-previous conversation with Jurand.
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Nov 1, 2021 19:03
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VagueRant posted:
That reveal quite literally stunned me for a moment. I think about it anytime a composite bow is mentioned in any context. That loving bow. Wisdom of Crowds chat: I thought it was painfully obvious that Glokta was pulling the strings from the moment Pike was "revealed" as The Weaver. Pike doesn't have the imagination to be the puppet master on that level, and is fanatically loyal to Glokta. It was hammered home by Savine continually wondering where he disappeared to. I was actually mildly disappointed when he popped out from behind the curtain. Devorum fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Nov 1, 2021 19:10
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loquacius posted:
He was never in full complete control of anything, he was behind the curtain manipulating things from a distance, going through intermediaries and cats-paws, and hoping they don't gently caress up too badly, which they then proceeded to do. Glokta was in no position to directly do anything to Risinau or Judge during or after the Valbeck uprising, because it caught him and Pike completely by surprise and they had no agents present, aside from Vick, who was cut off. Glokta and Pike gained access only to those Breakers who surrendered after that mess, and neither Judge nor Risinau did. Pike had to get rid of anyone who could possibly lead back to them, and to stoke anger for future uprisings, hence the killings. After that, once Pike re-established contact with the revolutionaries, they had to work with the tools they had, that is, Risinau, and when he turned out to be less than useful, the only option was to unleash the Judge, no matter the collateral damage, and knock her off at some point when their goals had been achieved. Warden fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Nov 1, 2021 19:27
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Now I keep thinking about how Joe's extremely long build up to, and the moment of Orso being hanged would've been done inbetween chapters in a KJ Parker book and you'd just get a mention of the corpse. Makes Joe look warm and cuddly by comparison.loquacius posted:Two passages (spoilers obv) Devorum posted:That reveal quite literally stunned me for a moment. I think about it anytime a composite bow is mentioned in any context. That loving bow. Re: Wisdom Of Crowds, I really would've preferred it if it was an independent Pike orchestrating the revolution. Glokta's conspicuous absense in book 3 made it so obvious, and it feels more nostalgia bait for the original trilogy than earned in the actual story. Glokta was a coward who couldn't even stop torturing.
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Nov 1, 2021 19:40
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Glokta did it like he did because he doesn't want the revolution to work out. He's just using it to clean house. Then it's back to business as usual, except with Glokta pulling the strings now. He might ease up on the poor a little, but there was never meant to be a new system. Also, Ishri and Savine weren't loving.
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Nov 1, 2021 20:06
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loquacius posted:Two passages (spoilers obv) tbh there's no indication Savine is into women that way and Zuri would know that I love you doesn't have to mean I want to gently caress you.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:29
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