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UCS Hellmaker posted:nope, we were right and it was a forumwide opinion that he was a loving ghoul. again its people like you that want to denounce anything bad about china as fake. China is doing the same thing the US did to the native americans, and Canadians did to the first nation population. Its genocide wow a forum-wide opinion, well that obviously beats actual material reality lol no they're not, it's not even remotely comparable
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Oct 26, 2021 17:43
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lobster shirt posted:Maybe a good way to improve the whole "working the refs to win arguments" thing is... well, it has been said in the past that there are people who max out their number of daily reports here in D&D (and also in CSPAM but this is a thread for D&D moderation so please let's stick to the topic at hand). Maybe those people should be punished for it? Or in general, if a mod spots an instance of "ref working", or people reporting posts while actively engaged in an argument with those post(er)s, maybe punish that as well? The staff are generally extremely worried about even the slightest risk of anything that might discourage people from reporting. Probating someone for reporting is permitted only with admin permission. It's not all about the number of reports, though, because there's tons of reports in C-SPAM too. Not as many as in D&D, generally, but the number was closer than you'd think. How Are U got reported quite heavily, for example.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:43
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Mellow Seas posted:OK, well, gently caress 'em? Who cares? Literally almost everything you post in USNews is "less than celebratory towards Dems," you post in that thread a lot more than I do, and you get less probations than I do. Where's the problem? Willa gets probed and ramped constantly for petty poo poo and you know it. Most of its baited trash and if she doesn't take the bait she gets harassed about it.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:44
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Mellow Seas posted:OK, well, gently caress 'em? Who cares? Literally almost everything you post in USNews is "less than celebratory towards Dems," you post in that thread a lot more than I do, and you get less probations than I do. Where's the problem? I mean, people can keep doing the point-n-laff thing, and I'll keep talking about stuff I find meaningful & pointing out the stupidity of being easily distracted by the daily schadenfreude. I've never reported a post like that, and don't think it's probation-worthy. I just think it's stupid. You're making a bigger deal out of this than I ever did.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:45
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Cloaked posted:Could you give some examples of the varied covid viewpoints that you see in D&D that are being suppressed in the cspam echo chamber? Sure thing. Here's a couple examples that spring to mind. There was a fairly long debate around when New Zealand gave up their COVID zero policy about how realistic COVID zero was to obtain with Delta prevalent, whether there are strategies other than COVID zero that can still keep cases and healthcare systems in a manageable state, and how much you can actually shut down an economy to control spread. I won't say I read every post in C-SPAM, but my impression of the thread is that it would be "OPEN JACINDA" repeated 20 times. Another one recently (just now actually) is about whether it makes sense to get boosters against the advice of the FDA (i.e. getting a different shot, or when you're ineligible for the current eligible statuses). Again, as far as I've ever seen, the thread consensus in C-SPAM is 100% in support of boosters without exception (the name of the thread was literally an injoke about this until recently). I do see how the C-SPAM covid thread could be informative, but it's information centreed around exactly one viewpoint. I will say one of the reasons I think the discussion in the D&D COVID thread is good is specifically because Beetus isn't overly probe or ban happy, and actually moderates discussions super well (i.e. steers discussion in positive directions, helps people see the other side of an arguments viewpoints instead of just handing out probes). enki42 fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 17:46
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Main Paineframe posted:The staff are generally extremely worried about even the slightest risk of anything that might discourage people from reporting. Probating someone for reporting is permitted only with admin permission. twice as many people are in cspam at any given time
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Oct 26, 2021 17:47
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Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." Or maybe it's more like, "when I see in a post in CSPAM I disagree with, I can respond with 'lmao', but D&D won't let me."
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Oct 26, 2021 17:49
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enki42 posted:
Saving lives because people are more important than the economy or government officials saving face after they hosed up?
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Oct 26, 2021 17:49
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30.5 Days posted:twice as many people are in cspam at any given time almost as many as in Games, which gets a lot fewer reports
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Oct 26, 2021 17:51
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Mellow Seas posted:Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." A lot of your problem seems to keep circling back to you being unable to believe the things people tell you at face value. You ask for what people like about cspam, they tell you, and then you decide they they must be lying and actually it's this thing you figured out and that they couldn't figure out about themselves. Maybe just listen to people and believe them.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:52
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Mellow Seas posted:People who prefer CSPAM to D&D, but still want to post here: what do you think D&D can do to incorporate the things you like about CSPAM while still maintaining its own identity as a distinct subforum? What should the differences between D&D and CSPAM be? Probations should be for being particularly hostile, not just thrown out for mild attacks, because all of the probations for mild attacks end up being filtered through ideology. My most recent D&D probations, despite being on generally very good behavior, are: - 3 days for making a pretty benign joke about a cop killing himself - 6 hour grudge probation for no reason from a mod that ended up leaving with a meltdown - 6 hours for using the phrase "concentration camp" - 6 hours for calling Bellingcat a CIA front / lightly ribbing someone for getting Very Mad about that possibility - 6 hours for implying Pick is racist All except the first were ideologically motivated. I'm open to people completely disagreeing with this and then I'll just mostly stick to C-SPAM, but there's basically a "never be mad" rule that lets a couple of Calm Hitlers run wild.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:53
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Mellow Seas posted:Should there not be a place to post where "Dem party loyalism" (which, to me, is just a pragmatic take on "how do we keep Republicans out of power as much as possible") is acceptable? Where it's not something people get attacked for, or have their opinions, observations or even outright fact-based statements treated as invalid for? Whether it's acceptable is a completely different conversation; the perception that it's the only acceptable viewpoint and disciplinary action from moderation is based largely around your history of it is why a lot of people leave D&D for greener pastures in C-SPAM. Mellow Seas posted:Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." Most C-SPAM posters, again, started out in D&D, and were driven there by D&D's tendency to punish outliers. This is an unavoidable consequence of that policy. Also, as I'm sure you've noticed, this basically comes down to what D&D posters like about D&D as opposed to C-SPAM too
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Oct 26, 2021 17:53
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silicone thrills posted:Saving lives because people are more important than the economy or government officials saving face after they hosed up? My point was that there is a larger range of viewpoints in D&D, not that D&D is objectively correct (it can't be because there is more than one opinion there) and C-SPAM is wrong - the fact that your response to that was basically "well all the other opinions are wrong" doesn't help convince me that C-SPAM is more inclusive of other viewpoints, which is the root of this discussion.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:54
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Mellow Seas posted:"People assuming good faith" isn't really something the moderators have control over (and I kind of reject the idea that people in CSPAM are any better than people in D&D about it, but whatever, not the point). As for your second point, perhaps it depends on the thread. I am not gonna defend all of CSPAM, and given your interest in US politics you're likely reading completely different threads than I am in CSPAM. Mellow Seas posted:I don't think there are consequences for "losing" a debate in D&D, either - plenty of people "lose" debates without getting probations all the time, you just have to be a good sport. So it seems like your main complaint is that the mods are too active - but if you remove the different moderation standards, what's left? Mellow Seas posted:What makes D&D different from CSPAM? When people give an answer to that question which is just, "it's worse, and everybody there is stupid, and they tattle to the lunch monitors" then they should just stop posting in D&D because I'm not really seeing what they're getting out of it that they're not getting out of CSPAM, except the ability to yell at some specific posters who won't do them the favor of going into their preferred space.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:59
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Cease to Hope posted:idk. CSPAM always strikes me as boring catty white noise, even if its political consensus is generally closer to my own. I think there's a place for both forums, not because liberals and leftists can't coexist, but because it's fine to have different standards of "interesting" and "informative" if there are enough posters to sustain two communities. CSPAM's fine, it's just not to my taste. I completely agree that CSPAM and D&D can coexist. One is for dumb political shitposts and one is for serious discussion and effortposts. I mean, there was an excellent Marxism thread in D&D a while back (ask me about marxism? something like that? can't remember the title offhand). If a reformed D&D means I've got a place for marxist shitposts and a separate place for marxist effortposts, I won't complain. My problem with the constant screeching of GENOCIDE DENIAL! is that it's a transparent attempt at doing the thing USPOL regulars perceive CSPAM regulars do with regards to Biden and rape. Far-right nutjob Adrian Zenz was essentially taken as gospel here because it was consistent with the same "China bad!" narrative that was and is politically useful for the American Democratic Party. Posting someone like Zenz would get you (probably rightly) punished here for regurgitating far-right propaganda, if he was "reporting" on a different topic. Even now, after the AP/DoD have said it doesn't constitute a genocide, the subforum's dumbest posters are still swinging it around to Own their Posting Enemies. I want to make very clear that I don't think "nothing is happening" or that China is in the right on this, or even that China isn't committing genocide (under that broader-scope definition), and that even if I just take only the thoroughly verified and agreed-upon reports I fully believe extremely hosed up poo poo is still going on. At least, I think that distinction is worthy of debate and discussion. In this very thread, however, we have people calling for forum- or permabans for anyone not completely agreeing that what China is doing is unambiguously "genocide", with no distinction. I say that's fine, as long as we're consistent about it. If we're saying that China is committing a genocide to the Uyghurs and that the US is committing a genocide in regards to its own black citizens, I am happy to recognize that standard. However, I think people here would get really mad at me for accusing them of genocide apologia for voting for one of the principal architects of the contemporary infrastructure of the American genocide on black Americans, Joe Biden. In a practical matter, though, I have no loving clue why I, a dumbass American, should feel the need to become a China hawk because of it. There is no -- absolutely zero -- "corrective action" America could possibly take that wouldn't make it profoundly worse. Moreover the thing I think being loudly and publicly "critical of China" is actually doing is contributing to the sinophobia that has been ramping up to insane levels since the start of Covid. Something I think a lot about whenever I hear about increasing anti-Asian violence and hate crimes here in America.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:01
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enki42 posted:My point was that there is a larger range of viewpoints in D&D, not that D&D is objectively correct (it can't be because there is more than one opinion there) and C-SPAM is wrong - the fact that your response to that was basically "well all the other opinions are wrong" doesn't help convince me that C-SPAM is more inclusive of other viewpoints, which is the root of this discussion. Im just saying, thats the view point and if you work from that lens while discussing new policies and actions by governments then thats how you have productive discussions in cspam COVID thread.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:02
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silicone thrills posted:Willa gets probed and ramped constantly for petty poo poo and you know it. Most of its baited trash and if she doesn't take the bait she gets harassed about it. Willa has 3 probes in the past 2 months and posts about 100 times a day in USNEWS, there was a ramp back in August over a series of shitposts none of that feels like constantly, it really feels like CSPAM have created their own echo chamber cinematic universe nonsense "D&D probes anyone who doesn't love the dems" and "people were forumbanned at the drop of the hat for not liking a dem" and spend their time raging over it. I think the solution to fixing D&D is to close the Succ thread so there stops being a thread that encourages cspammers to come argue with usnews for the purpose of trolling and farming quotes for their weird circlejerk thread.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:03
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Mellow Seas posted:Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." It generally seems like your perception of D&D is "the place where I can post my opinions but people can't make fun of me for them". I don't know that this is a sustainable way for D&D to operate. For any given standard of posting, there is a way to make fun of you within the rules. Finding a way to codify not making fun of posters even if it's really clever and civil and involves a lot of sources or whatever is kind of what has led D&D to this point. I think a lot of the emnity towards cspam posters here comes down to "why do those guys have to come in here, they already have a place where people don't make fun of them"
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Oct 26, 2021 18:06
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socialsecurity posted:Willa has 3 probes in the past 2 months and posts about 100 times a day in USNEWS, there was a ramp back in August over a series of shitposts none of that feels like constantly, it really feels like CSPAM have created their own echo chamber cinematic universe nonsense "D&D probes anyone who doesn't love the dems" and "people were forumbanned at the drop of the hat for not liking a dem" and spend their time raging over it. I think the solution to fixing D&D is to close the Succ thread so there stops being a thread that encourages cspammers to come argue with usnews for the purpose of trolling and farming quotes for their weird circlejerk thread. Like 2 months ago Willa got ramped after posting an accurate statement, someone responded to her who clearly misread what she posted then ran with it harassing her for like 3 pages then Steve stepped in and probed the guy who was harassing her then multiple people whined to steve that it was a bad shoot. The whole thing was a hilarious encapsulation. But regardless, I like the succ thread because we don't just discuss what USPOL is up to - we discuss all the stupid poo poo the dems are up to around the internet. USPOL just happens to produce some opinions that are exactly as mealy mouthed as any matt yglesias article. If you have a problem with that, I dont know what to tell you. If the same opinions were posted on reddit, they'd get dragged over to succ to and they do because I go and source reddit regularly. and twitter. I only started posting in succ because any attempts i've made over the last year to have an honest discussion about something in USPOL has resulted in me or other people in the discussion getting probed. Succ was a direct result of people being unable to call out lovely politicians and engage to figure out why people hold lovely opinions. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 18:08
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30.5 Days posted:Finding a way to codify not making fun of posters even if it's really clever and civil and involves a lot of sources or whatever is kind of what has led D&D to this point. Have you considered that maybe people differ on what is "clever" and what is "civil"? And that maybe something that's "clever and civil" when directed at your posting enemies is just "being an rear end in a top hat" when it's coming from them? Like, I dunno, guys, maybe I'm just way off base, and I get that "This is SomethingAwful!" but I think people should not be trying to make other people feel bad when they post. Yes, that's about fee-fees, but so is "the mods gave me a sixer so gently caress this place", because there's no actual cost to being unable to post for six friggin' hours.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:09
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30.5 Days posted:It generally seems like your perception of D&D is "the place where I can post my opinions but people can't make fun of me for them". This is what dnd should be. Post your opinions, be able to handle pushback on them, don't just shitpost and whitenoise post if you disagree. If you want to shitpost all over people you disagree with well there's a forum for that. If you find that there aren't people you disagree with over there well then you have an echo chamber. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get all grumpy that you don't have anybody to poo poo on in the shitposting forum.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:10
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socialsecurity posted:Willa has 3 probes in the past 2 months and posts about 100 times a day in USNEWS, there was a ramp back in August over a series of shitposts none of that feels like constantly, it really feels like CSPAM have created their own echo chamber cinematic universe nonsense "D&D probes anyone who doesn't love the dems" and "people were forumbanned at the drop of the hat for not liking a dem" and spend their time raging over it. I think the solution to fixing D&D is to close the Succ thread so there stops being a thread that encourages cspammers to come argue with usnews for the purpose of trolling and farming quotes for their weird circlejerk thread. It feels a lot better to be a martyr for a cause than to admit you were a jerk and deserved to eat a probe.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:11
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socialsecurity posted:Willa has 3 probes in the past 2 months and posts about 100 times a day in USNEWS, there was a ramp back in August over a series of shitposts none of that feels like constantly, it really feels like CSPAM have created their own echo chamber cinematic universe nonsense "D&D probes anyone who doesn't love the dems" and "people were forumbanned at the drop of the hat for not liking a dem" and spend their time raging over it. I think the solution to fixing D&D is to close the Succ thread so there stops being a thread that encourages cspammers to come argue with usnews for the purpose of trolling and farming quotes for their weird circlejerk thread. like clockwork someone suggested this in the Tiny Toes aftermath too, the guy didn't even post in succzone I don't know what you think goes on in that thread; it is not a home base and coordination center for targeted D&D harassment. People who had been reading other threads anyway sometimes post unsourced quotes there. They are not connected to the original posters or their usernames in any way; you'd have no idea it was happening at all if you weren't reading the thread specifically to find them.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:14
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socialsecurity posted:I think the solution to fixing D&D is to close the Succ thread so there stops being a thread that encourages cspammers to come argue with usnews for the purpose of trolling and farming quotes for their weird circlejerk thread. I know you're doing a bit here but you would absolutely lose your loving mind if people were encouraged to come into your playpen and tell you your opinions are poo poo to your face.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:15
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Yeah, I'm the one being the martyr in this, lol. The only probation I've ever cited as blatantly unfair (in the post-ew era) was the week I got for making a joke about Hunter's military service in the war on drugs. And I didn't even complain to the mods about it or try to get it rescinded, bc it was just one more hilarious entry on my rap sheet, which speaks for itself.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:15
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:At least, I think that distinction is worthy of debate and discussion. That discussion cannot happen until you drive out the people who will constantly derail it with the argument that nothing is happening and it's all fake. Moreover, I don't think that kind of blatant hate should be welcome on SA at all in any forum. Pentecoastal Elites posted:In a practical matter, though, I have no loving clue why I, a dumbass American, should feel the need to become a China hawk because of it. There is no -- absolutely zero -- "corrective action" America could possibly take that wouldn't make it profoundly worse. Moreover the thing I think being loudly and publicly "critical of China" is actually doing is contributing to the sinophobia that has been ramping up to insane levels since the start of Covid. Something I think a lot about whenever I hear about increasing anti-Asian violence and hate crimes here in America. This is a sort of blinkered Americentrism that isn't helpful, though. There are reasons to criticize China other than to establish a casus belli for war with China. For one, it's often helpful to engage people's outrage with a foreign misdeed to get them to abandon their own apologia for the same abuse at home. It won't convince everyone, but it can work. Likewise, criticizing governments needs to be allowed in the government criticism forum! There are some pretty obvious double standards I don't think you've considered; no American leftist would ever stint from criticizing, say, Saudi Arabia for fear of how it will encourage hate for American Muslims or Arabs. Nobody in D&D (AFAIK) is spreading the sort of hateful conspiracies that American racists do traffic in (or they should be harshly punished if so!); American racists do not generally get righteously angry about foreign Muslims being mistreated. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 18:17
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I know you're doing a bit here but you would absolutely lose your loving mind if people were encouraged to come into your playpen and tell you your opinions are poo poo to your face. And that's the fundamental disconnect here. You're more than welcome to come and express any opinion you like. Just do it politely and respectfully, and have some evidence to back up your points. If you just leap in with guns blazing, you'll get probed in a heartbeat. Not for your opinions, but for being a jerk.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:19
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Deteriorata posted:And that's the fundamental disconnect here. You're more than welcome to come and express any opinion you like. Just do it politely and respectfully, and have some evidence to back up your points. Mellow Seas posted:Have you considered that maybe people differ on what is "clever" and what is "civil"? And that maybe something that's "clever and civil" when directed at your posting enemies is just "being an rear end in a top hat" when it's coming from them?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:19
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Hard to argue it's all about decorum when there's a guy on this exact page arguing you shouldn't be allowed to make fun of him at all, in any terms.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:20
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silicone thrills posted:Im just saying, thats the view point and if you work from that lens while discussing new policies and actions by governments then thats how you have productive discussions in cspam COVID thread. Right, but that's going against what I want from a thread. I want to see a variety of viewpoints, and if how you have productive discussions is "this is the viewpoint, if you work from that lens you can have a good discussion" is maybe a useful thing for some people, but directly works against having a lot of different viewpoints.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:21
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The problem with saying "well they were being a jerk so they deserved it" is that's not always the whole story. It completely ignores the possibility of bias. If you agree with a post, you're less likely to see that person as being a jerk, and vice versa. Nobody is going to be able to be perfectly objective about this, so I don't expect them to be, but pretending like it was just a matter of "being a jerk" is incorrect. And hoo boy, there are a ton of people who regularly post like jerks and never or rarely get punished for it.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:21
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30.5 Days posted:Hard to argue it's all about decorum when there's a guy on this exact page arguing you shouldn't be allowed to make fun of him at all, in any terms. Who is that?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:21
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Deteriorata posted:And that's the fundamental disconnect here. You're more than welcome to come and express any opinion you like. Just do it politely and respectfully, and have some evidence to back up your points. This is both untrue and bad policy even if it were. "Politely and respectfully" questioning Tara Reade's credibility led to a chaotic meltdown, forum war, and QCS drama and rightfully so; "politely and respectfully" questioning Adrian Zenz's credibility led to instant bans. [edit: this page has kind of gone away from the rules set out by the OP and I've been following suit -- is this okay or not? Might take a breather here until we get a ruling.] BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 18:22
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How are u posted:Who is that? The guy I quoted. It's in the post directly above the one you're responding to.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:22
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30.5 Days posted:The guy I quoted. It's in the post directly above the one you're responding to. Yes, I think people who are posting with the goal of making other people feel bad, and treat posting like a contest, are not the people I want to be talking about anything with. You got me.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:23
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Mellow Seas posted:Yes, I think people who are posting with the goal of making other people feel bad, and treat posting like a contest, are not the people I want to be talking about anything with. You got me. And by contrast, deteriorata says you can do that as long as you put effort into it and are polite. These are two contradictory points of view, and I am pointing out the contradiction.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:25
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Cease to Hope posted:That discussion cannot happen until you drive out the people who will constantly derail it with the argument that nothing is happening and it's all fake. Moreover, I don't think that kind of blatant hate should be welcome on SA at all in any forum. Sorry, I shouldn't have written "critical of China", I meant that to be sarcastic -- I mean to call out the demand that everyone China is definitely and absolutely doing a genocide and the call to literally silence anyone who doesn't agree completely, which isn't being critical of China but instead feeding into the insane xenophobia that would be correctly recognized as far-right racism if it wasn't politically useful to the democratic party. Anyway the discussion also can't happen until you drive out the people who will constantly derail it with the argument that any sort of comment that isn't complete and utter acceptance of the idea that China is literally mass murdering it's Uighur population, and that to say anything otherwise is not just argued against, but should result in a permaban.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:26
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30.5 Days posted:And by contrast, deteriorata says you can do that as long as you put effort into it and are polite. These are two contradictory points of view, and I am pointing out the contradiction. Absolutely stunning that you can't even conceive of the idea of polite disagreement, and how it might foster a better posting atmosphere than trying to get owns. Stunning. You can say "I disagree with you and here's why" without saying "I disagree with you and you're a dumb piece of poo poo". PE clearly, expressly is bemoaning his inability to do the latter.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:26
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Mellow Seas posted:Absolutely stunning that you can't even conceive of the idea of polite disagreement, and how it might foster a better posting atmosphere than trying to get owns. Stunning. Someone arguing that polite disagreement is impossible? Mellow Seas posted:Have you considered that maybe people differ on what is "clever" and what is "civil"? And that maybe something that's "clever and civil" when directed at your posting enemies is just "being an rear end in a top hat" when it's coming from them? Huh.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:27
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Dude, you're all over the place. Done discussing this with you. Have a nice day 
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Oct 26, 2021 18:28
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