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30.5 Days posted:And by contrast, deteriorata says you can do that as long as you put effort into it and are polite. These are two contradictory points of view, and I am pointing out the contradiction. If the point of your posting is to make people feel bad and not discuss the topic in question, then you're not actually being polite or respectful.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:28
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enki42 posted:Right, but that's going against what I want from a thread. I want to see a variety of viewpoints, and if how you have productive discussions is "this is the viewpoint, if you work from that lens you can have a good discussion" is maybe a useful thing for some people, but directly works against having a lot of different viewpoints. You can have plenty of productive conversations about policies and how many people they will save or kill or peoples motivations for said policies. If you are starting from a view point of "its ok to kill people in the name of profit" or "Its ok if some people die because we relaxed policies to make some people feel better" then yes I agree, you probably wont be able to have a productive discussion because its pretty anathema in the same way that rape apologists or genocide denial is.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:28
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The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw
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Oct 26, 2021 18:29
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Anyway the discussion also can't happen until you drive out the people who will constantly derail it with the argument that any sort of comment that isn't complete and utter acceptance of the idea that China is literally mass murdering it's Uighur population, and that to say anything otherwise is not just argued against, but should result in a permaban. Can you point to an example of this? Because I think you're creating an extreme caricature to draw a false equivalence. thatfatkid is an actual poster, and not the only one who posts the way he does.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:29
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Mellow Seas posted:Dude, you're all over the place. Done discussing this with you. Have a nice day Yeah, I bet.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:29
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silicone thrills posted:You can have plenty of productive conversations about policies and how many people they will save or kill or peoples motivations for said policies. If you are starting from a view point of "its ok to kill people in the name of profit" or "Its ok if some people die because we relaxed policies to make some people feel better" then yes I agree, you probably wont be able to have a productive discussion because its pretty anathema in the same way that rape apologists or genocide denial is. I think you should read the D&D COVID thread, because I haven't heard those viewpoints expressed and those aren't the only possible alternative viewpoints to COVID zero being the only acceptable option. The long discussion I mentioned was precisely about this. I also think this points to an issue I have with the C-SPAM covid thread - it's not even so much whether people assume good faith, it's that people always assume that anyone with a contradictory opinion has the worst possible motivations. Any opinion counter to "pursue COVID zero at all costs" is assumed to mean "act exactly like the US" and "solely care about profits, and don't care at all about health." enki42 fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 18:30
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Mellow Seas posted:Dude, you're all over the place. Done discussing this with you. Have a nice day How are you this rude to other people without any self awareness?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:30
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loquacius posted:The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw "It matters how you say things" is a different idea from "you can say anything if you say it right." If people in D&D actually had the hateful, right-wing opinions people pretend they do, your argument would have more relevance. Gumball Gumption posted:How are you this rude to other people without any self awareness? I wasn't being sarcastic, I saw that the discussion wasn't going anywhere and I sincerely hope he has a nice day.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:30
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enki42 posted:I think you should read the D&D COVID thread, because I haven't heard those viewpoints expressed and those aren't the only possible alternative viewpoints to COVID zero being the only acceptable option. The long discussion I mentioned was precisely about this. I actually do lurk the DND covid thread. I prefer not to engage.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:30
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loquacius posted:The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw It's a necessary condition for discussing contentious issues. Nobody learns anything from a poo poo-flinging screamfest. D&D is a place to discuss things with emotions in check. If people can't do that, they shouldn't post here.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:31
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loquacius posted:The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw You can be as rude as you want in cspam. Go for it, be really mean. Just let em have it with both barrels. Let's just try to avoid that type of aggro posting in here, for people who don't care for it.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:33
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Deteriorata posted:It's a necessary condition for discussing contentious issues. Nobody learns anything from a poo poo-flinging screamfest. Det, do you think that social security post screeching for the closure of his forum enemies' thread counts as "emotions in check?"
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Oct 26, 2021 18:36
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Probably Magic posted:Det, do you think that social security post screeching for the closure of his forum enemies' thread counts as "emotions in check?" Sorry I don't think there should be a thread in the forum that exists to harass and stalk another part of the forum.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:38
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Cease to Hope posted:Can you point to an example of this? Because I think you're creating an extreme caricature to draw a false equivalence. thatfatkid is an actual poster, and not the only one who posts the way he does. UCS Hellmaker posted:Probe and ban people that can't imagine that china commits genocide and has been, big loving red line do not cross, not hard and the fact that we have people trying to argue it isn't is horseshit because they don't want to say their favorite country is in fact awful and racist as hell. Probe and ban actual rape apologists, big red line who gives a gently caress. Sebmojo already brought up the mistake 6er and addressed what happened (just go back and probe it and ban them for being a fuckhead) (UCS Hellmaker is especially uh... keyed in on this one: [edit: search links apparently expire, but just search " username:"UCS Hellmaker" genocide " ]) How are u posted:Genocide denial should continue to be a bannable offense. That it only has been in D&D and not forum-wide is pretty appalling. and I mean, honestly: Cease to Hope posted:my feedback is to keep banning blatant genocide deniers on sight I know you were replying to fatkid and if they deny anything bad whatsoever is going on that's one thing, but I don't think looking at even specifically what the DoD is saying about China and saying "this, to me, does not constitute a genocide" is ban-worthy -- at least if not saying the same thing about any of the genocides America is participating in or has participated in does not also constitute a ban. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 18:39
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D&D is the place for stoic posting
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Oct 26, 2021 18:39
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enki42 posted:I think you should read the D&D COVID thread, because I haven't heard those viewpoints expressed and those aren't the only possible alternative viewpoints to COVID zero being the only acceptable option. The long discussion I mentioned was precisely about this. I think the big difference is looking at the results of policies. One big thing in CSPAM that i've noticed that differs from DND is that in CSPAM intentions are given very little weight. What matters is outcomes. If the outcome of a policy is clearly going to result in more people being hurt/dead/maimed then its not going to be given any sort of positive evaluation. Its the same thing when it comes to politicians. CSPAM cares very little about politicians and personality - what matters is policies and outcomes.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:41
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socialsecurity posted:Sorry I don't think there should be a thread in the forum that exists to harass and stalk another part of the forum. I dont think reading a thread and thinking "wow this opinion is awful but I can't say that here because ill get probed but I want to talk about it so i'll talk about it somewhere is" is stalking.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:41
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socialsecurity posted:Sorry I don't think there should be a thread in the forum that exists to harass and stalk another part of the forum. How decorous of you
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Oct 26, 2021 18:42
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30.5 Days posted:D&D is the place for stoic posting Sure, that sounds pretty good. It's good to have a place like this. There's a whole other forum for hooting and hollering and shitposting.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:43
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socialsecurity posted:Sorry I don't think there should be a thread in the forum that exists to harass and stalk another part of the forum. I've literally never seen a post from you that wasn't grudgeposting at your enemies. And fine, whatever, but don't come at me with this, "We're the nice forum!" crap.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:43
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I think there are posters who post like dicks to be dicks and there are posters who post like dicks defensively. If you got rid of the former, the latter would pipe down. No I don't know how to tell the difference.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:45
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loquacius posted:The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw And heck even in general there's nothing worse than having fake niceness
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Oct 26, 2021 18:47
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silicone thrills posted:I think the big difference is looking at the results of policies. One big thing in CSPAM that i've noticed that differs from DND is that in CSPAM intentions are given very little weight. What matters is outcomes. If the outcome of a policy is clearly going to result in more people being hurt/dead/maimed then its not going to be given any sort of positive evaluation. The problem I have with your take is that it's extremely US-centric, which is of course a byproduct of most posters here being from North America. The US has been a pretty massive outlier in poor responses to Covid, and there's plenty of places all over the world right now doing much better with case rates, deaths, pretty much everything. Covid zero is probably not going to be a thing, but that doesn't mean this is the apocalypse, it means that we're going to have to adapt to a new disease which will require yearly or bi-yearly vaccines and NPIs being implemented when necessary. I do not have much faith that US will improve their handling of Covid until vaccine mandates become universal and enforceable (lol) but I am encouraged by places that are starting to push close to 90% fully vaxxed and utilize restrictions that amount to more than Covid theater (it's okay to take off your mask to eat and wow look at all this hand sanitizer to protect you from non-measurable fomite transmission). No one is invested in defending "politicians and personalities" in the current iteration of the DND Covid thread, but I guess you already know that since you lurk it.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:48
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:My problem with the constant screeching of GENOCIDE DENIAL! is that it's a transparent attempt at doing the thing USPOL regulars perceive CSPAM regulars do with regards to Biden and rape. Far-right nutjob Adrian Zenz was essentially taken as gospel here because it was consistent with the same "China bad!" narrative that was and is politically useful for the American Democratic Party. Posting someone like Zenz would get you (probably rightly) punished here for regurgitating far-right propaganda, if he was "reporting" on a different topic. Even now, after the AP/DoD have said it doesn't constitute a genocide, the subforum's dumbest posters are still swinging it around to Own their Posting Enemies.  Pentecoastal Elites posted:In a practical matter, though, I have no loving clue why I, a dumbass American, should feel the need to become a China hawk because of it. There is no -- absolutely zero -- "corrective action" America could possibly take that wouldn't make it profoundly worse. Moreover the thing I think being loudly and publicly "critical of China" is actually doing is contributing to the sinophobia that has been ramping up to insane levels since the start of Covid. Something I think a lot about whenever I hear about increasing anti-Asian violence and hate crimes here in America. Nobody's asking you to become a China hawk or support war on China. It's perfectly fine to say "China is probably committing ethnic cleansing but I think it would be incredibly loving hypocritical bullshit for the US to go to war over it". Instead, folks have gotta do this weird posturing bullshit where they couch it in more weasel-words than your average Wikipedia article, and if pressed on it, they claim it's because they're afraid posting on an internet forum might single-handedly start World War 3 or purges of Chinese-Americans or some poo poo. Rest loving assured that neither anti-Asian violence in the US nor American war plans are going to be impacted even slightly by the exact word choices we use in a political discussion thread on a dying website. loquacius posted:The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw I can guarantee you that it doesn't really matter what you say here, on Something Awful Dot Com. The most impact SA has ever had on real-life American politics was when Vilerat died and his mom paraded him around as a martyr for the Republicans, and it's pretty fuckin clear the content of his posts had jack poo poo to do with that. Can we dispense with this ridiculous concept that anything we post here Matters in any larger sense beyond whether or not we feel like being a dick to each other on a site that hasn't been relevant since before Trump was elected?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:02
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I actually don't like the CSPAM Covid thread that much because it's a little too hardcore for me about the boosters, and boosters chat in general especially within a year of vaccination gets a raised eyebrow from me, but I don't want to actually tangent on that, just make the point that no, I don't think every thread in CSPAM rules over anything in D&D. For that matter, I like UKMT the few times I've popped in because it's a trippy cross between a LAN thread and a politics thread. That's a neat atmosphere, and maybe more of the regional threads are like that in D&D, I don't know, but I think that's hard to replicate for the US because the specific regional user base is so large and, y'know, politics is so cutthroat right now. I will say, the promise mods made was they were going to keep Biden just as accountable as Trump and... that didn't happen. Part of the reason people complain about the topic quarantine threads is a #metoo thread wasn't necessitated for Kavanaugh, it was necessitate for Tara Reade. Same for immigration, etc. Bringing up Trump doing a dickish thing in 2020 got a wave of agreement, bringing up Biden doing a dickish thing gets a bunch of people playing spin doctor, raised tempers, and a mod probating a bunch of people and then saying, "Make a thread about it," where only five people bother to respond, effectively neutering the conversation, the equivalent of free speech zone. The whole, "We don't want distractions," is carefully evading the real issue, that criticizing a Blue Dog Democrat won't require a new thread if it's Sinema but will when it's Biden. That's an unkept promise, as far as I'm concerned, and heavily disincentives even engaging in threads like the metoo one. I could talk to five people who agree with me about it in D&D or I could talk with the fifty who agree with me in CSPAM, and either way I never get to challenge or be challenged. Well, my choice is made, eh?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:08
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if you just really enjoy being an insufferable pedant about poo poo, just loving admit it like i do, instead of making up some bullshit about how you being mega-anal about every other word is actually saving the global poor from war and genocide
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Oct 26, 2021 19:09
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Hey just pointing out that most Conservatives would also agree that America is genociding people right now, the unborn. So really just party-line liberals doing the denying.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:14
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silicone thrills posted:Its the same thing when it comes to politicians. CSPAM cares very little about politicians and personality - what matters is policies and outcomes. I don't think I've seen this really expressed in D&D - can you think of an example? Hell, I spend half my time saying that the current conservative government in Ontario has a half-decent recovery plan that's working so far, and overall I'm extremely against any of their other policies. I've also heard the outcome argument - but I come from an area where (at least so far) reasonable restrictions and constant adjustment, combined with high levels of vaccination is keeping our waves well under control and keeping Rt under 1 outside of those brief, stunted waves. I suspect though that because that's not what the US is experiencing, it wouldn't be welcome in the C-SPAM covid thread. I haven't posted there much, but when I have I have absolutely self-censored to fit the thread consensus. enki42 fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 19:15
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Hey just pointing out that most Conservatives would also agree that America is genociding people right now, the unborn. So really just party-line liberals doing the denying. 
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Oct 26, 2021 19:17
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I know you were replying to fatkid and if they deny anything bad whatsoever is going on that's one thing, but I don't think looking at even specifically what the DoD is saying about China and saying "this, to me, does not constitute a genocide" is ban-worthy -- at least if not saying the same thing about any of the genocides America is participating in or has participated in does not also constitute a ban. Link didn't work but neither of the quoted posts said anything particularly out of line. I'm willing to believe there are liberal genocide deniers. Ban them! Why would I want those creeps around?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:23
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enki42 posted:I don't think I've seen this really expressed in D&D - can you think of an example? Hell, I spend half my time saying that the current conservative government in Ontario has a half-decent recovery plan that's working so far, and overall I'm extremely against any of their other policies. Probably less recently but there was a bit of attachment to that one economist early on who was saying "its ok for kids to go to school and they dont get covid!" Her name slipped from my brain but in the end it turned out she was being funded by Koch. She was couching her language in a way that a lot of democrats really liked but if you looked at her background it was wild that she was being treated as an expert. She made this whole risk evaluation chart that people I know in real life were leaning on to say that it was fine for their kids to run around and do "normal" stuff. People definitely got run off for calling out her background. edit: ITS EMILY OSTER god gently caress I also dont really get the "there arent international opinions in the CSPAM COVID thread" when a couple of the most frequent posters in and from Australia, Denmark and the Philippines. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 19:27
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Hey just pointing out that most Conservatives would also agree that America is genociding people right now, the unborn. So really just party-line liberals doing the denying. Lol
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Oct 26, 2021 19:29
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Anyway, you guys should watch Dune. Peace.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:31
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Re: posters leaving D&D, I'd make two points- D&D and CSPAM activity are both down because it's not a US election year. That's normal. I'd guess they're around half the active users as last year. People will come back next year and in '24 because those are US election cycles and posters who are not politics-engaged 24/7 will pay more attention. The question is how do we make sure there's quality politics and election stuff for them when they do come around again? D&D has lost some posters to CSPAM, sure. But there are a ton of posters that left the SA politics forums because of the drop quality and interforum squabbling or left SA entirely last year during the Lowtax Uncertainty. I know quite a few of them on various Discord servers. Lots of posters moved to Discord servers when it wasn't clear what was going to happen to SA, then realized they were much happier just not being on SA at all. You're not going to hear much from those groups. Mods might want to keep in mind that the feedback they're going to get here is from the self-selected group of SA posters who still care or are active in D&D and SA politics.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:31
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Probably Magic posted:Anyway, you guys should watch Dune. Peace. they took out the line about how they're drinking their own poo poo and piss. bad film
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Oct 26, 2021 19:40
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Fritz the Horse posted:Re: posters leaving D&D, I'd make two points- This is a really important point and I hope that the mods, gjb, cg, ralph, and the_steve take the time to talk with the Bailey family of posters they run all their decisions by before taking any drastic action.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:49
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CommieGIR posted:So, you are saying you are pro-forumban without ramping. Got it. Thanks for the feedback. Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone. Seriously, if this person still has buttons at the end of this what is the point of asking for any feedback. Even ignoring the immediate meltdown that followed it which on its own should show they should have no say in how this forum is run.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:53
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If you really think about it every woman who gives birth is doing a cultural genocide of the unborn
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Oct 26, 2021 19:55
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serious gaylord posted:Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:55
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serious gaylord posted:Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:56
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