|
serious gaylord posted:Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone.
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 10:33 |
|
|
serious gaylord posted:Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
edit: wrong thread
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:09
|
|
|
Everyone going after GommieGIR but Handsome Ralph is a hundred times worse. At least CG seems to mean well, while Ralph has just clear contempt for the people he likes to probate. He seems like the type of person who turns into a total oval office when given the tiniest bit of authority, a classic somethingawful mod for sure, but maybe demod that guy
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:09
|
|
|
Lol that the one post rule was lifted and it immediately wound up with Forums Superstar and Moderator Extraordinare CommieGIR showing their whole rear end that they had to eat a probation for it. After seeing CG conduct themselves this way in this thread and the QCS thread, how can you possibly excuse the blue star next to their name?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:13
|
|
|
serious gaylord posted:Hello this is a perfect encapsulation with everything wrong with the current moderation in D&D right now.The man got some mild criticism and instead of being normal about it just swung wildly for the worst reading possible while simultaneously being as dismissive as possible in tone. While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. What really needs to be discussed is these coordinated harassment campaigns against D&D mods that certain groups of posters clearly dislike, and the particularly vicious and vile nature of the attacks. It's not a "both sides" issue either. I myself have voiced a ton of criticism against Majorian and the_steve in the past, but I've never accused them of being pedophiles or agents of <intel agency>, for example. Maybe people should tone down their rhetoric several notches if they actually want to see some positive change.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. thats why one of the other mods needed to pull him aside at some point and tell him to take a break before it got to this point. i know the mods are all adults and shouldn't need to babysit eachother but i dont think its beyond the pale to say a more experienced mod should've been able to recognize he wasnt handling this well from the jump and privately defuse the situation, thats certainly better than just letting it rock until you literally need to probe him (lol) e: oh i didnt even read the last 2/3rds of your post. lmbo
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:22
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:23
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. People have very legitimate beef with him and have gotten frustrated over months of nothing being done about it. He has a habit of making up rules in his head then probing against those, probing for doom posting, probing for discussing something longer than he wants to discuss it. Its reasonable that people have lost their chill with this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:26
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. So the problem is actually your posting enemies?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
literally "no one deserves to be heard unless they are more polite to me and my posting pals"
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:29
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:literally "no one deserves to be heard unless they are more polite to me and my posting pals" The D&D/CSPAM divide is just the words " The tone is more important than the message" but in two different tones.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
I don't have posting enemies I'm aware of, and I honestly can't even tell you if it's the same people most of the time, but the mob mentality when it looks like there's blood in the water for a mod or IK is extremely, extremely obvious and prevalent. (pretend I inserted that Maine Painframe meltdown like I could be bothered to go find it) I won't even pin it on the C-SPAM crew targeting D&D mods, there was an obvious mob out for blood against Majorian (or however you spell their name)
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:33
|
|
|
fart_man_69 posted:Everyone going after GommieGIR but Handsome Ralph is a hundred times worse. At least CG seems to mean well, while Ralph has just clear contempt for the people he likes to probate. He seems like the type of person who turns into a total oval office when given the tiniest bit of authority, a classic somethingawful mod for sure, but maybe demod that guy When I pmed Ralph on my probe earlier, he sent me a bunch of replies that basically amounted to "all of my posting buddies told me that people like you are why D&D is bad" (I haven't really posted in D&D since the 2016 election, about five times longer than he has been an IK or Mod) and "go back to cspam" (I don't post in cspam) which is imo very emblematic of the problems in D&D. Some nebulous enemy posters from the other politics forum were mean about their bad moderation, and therefore everyone who has a problem with their moderation is an evil cspammer that wants to ruin the forums or whatever. Don't bother to read the posts or the context or that poster's posting history, if they dislike our moderation they must be The Enemy who is all the same. All criticism gets painted with the same broad brush, there are enough tedious hugbox posters that tell the mods everything is great and peachy they way they run things so they think they're completely in the right and unimpeachable, and all the rest of the SA posters avoid D&D like the toxic wastedump it has slowly turned into. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Oct 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:34
|
|
|
Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:37
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:literally "no one deserves to have their concerns heard unless they are more polite to me and my posting pals" Well, there is a wide spectrum between "being polite" and "not accusing someone of being a pedophile." I'm just saying that people are much less likely to actually hear your concerns about someone if you're constantly using the most extreme rhetoric imaginable when describing that person and flinging wild accusations at them This shouldn't be a controversial statement. I know the Internet can make people particularly vicious, but but at the end of the day we should all remember there are humans on the other side of our screens.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. So you looked at CommieGIR all but intentionally looking for rakes to step on over the past few days and decided "this is a coordinated hate campaign against tbe moderators"?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Wait Majorian got to be a mod and then got harassed out of being a mod when it turned out he was thin skinned. I'm sorry I missed that. I bet the same would happen to me if I got buttons
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:literally "no one deserves to be heard unless they are more polite to me and my posting pals" That poster you're replying to is making a dumb argument I don't agree with, but yeah I think you do need to be a minimal amount of polite. Open roiling hostility is its own sort of boring useless white noise.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. if you're gonna go this far, just close the thread and post a link to some kind of private feedback form instead it'd be a far more effective way of accomplishing this goal, with far less mod effort, and probably less humiliating like at this point what is the actual purpose of holding the feedback specifically in a thread
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
Honestly I am kind of shocked the mods have never tried something like a google form for feedback. Its easy to spin up an account for privacy and build a form with some ratings to shoot into an excel format to parse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:45
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. Yeah I'll just say it again the most exhausting thing about D&D is the constant rules about good faith while assuming any criticism or disagreement is coming from an insincere place.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:45
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:if you're gonna go this far, just close the thread and post a link to some kind of private feedback form instead Because I'm stupid enough to keep believing that people can discuss changes like reasonable adults instead of overgrown children screaming and throwing fruit in the produce isle and challenging the shift manager to a fight.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:47
|
|
|
I think having the the thread is nice and keeping it open is good, and it is good not to close it so that people can give their opinions about bad modding and bad mods. I don't know why the state of the thread was considered so beyond the pale that somebody had to put their foot down, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
silicone thrills posted:Honestly I am kind of shocked the mods have never tried something like a google form for feedback. Its easy to spin up an account for privacy and build a form with some ratings to shoot into an excel format to parse. We've discussed this before, in QCS, and the response was "why do the coward mods want to hide the feedback??" so here we are I guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Because I'm stupid enough to keep believing that people can discuss changes like reasonable adults instead of overgrown children screaming and throwing fruit in the produce isle and challenging the shift manager to a fight. I thought things were going pretty well all things considered. It was all very civil. fool of sound posted:We've discussed this before, in QCS, and the response was "why do the coward mods want to hide the feedback??" so here we are I guess. I mean, if this is too mean or uncivilized for you then yeah you should probably take the feedback in private but nothing here seems overtly problematic or mean.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Because I'm stupid enough to keep believing that people can discuss changes like reasonable adults instead of overgrown children screaming and throwing fruit in the produce isle and challenging the shift manager to a fight. then what the gently caress have i been doing studying the blade all this time
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Because I'm stupid enough to keep believing that people can discuss changes like reasonable adults instead of overgrown children screaming and throwing fruit in the produce isle and challenging the shift manager to a fight. fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. Why do the people demanding decorum also talk to everyone like this?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
I don't think being a D&D mod is easy, but I think Fool of Sound is generally on point with his front-facing moderation and I have nothing bad to say. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, though. It might just be that CommieGIR and Ralph to hand out so many random, capricious punishments that he is generally able to escape the spotlight.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah I'll just say it again the most exhausting thing about D&D is the constant rules about good faith while assuming any criticism or disagreement is coming from an insincere place. Yeah I agree that this is a major problem. The problem is there's a consistent tension between posters who feel that it's unfair when people do not assume good faith on their part, and posters who feel that they shouldn't have to humor people who they have determined to be posting in bad faith. Sometimes these are the same posters. I earnestly don't know how best to deal with this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:51
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:We've discussed this before, in QCS, and the response was "why do the coward mods want to hide the feedback??" so here we are I guess. The nice thing about something like Google Sheets, is that you can set protected sheets and ranges, so that you could take in feedback through a form, but not allow anyone to gently caress with it, while making the sheet visible to anyone with the link. I know I've got somewhat of "a reputation" in D&D, but I would be more than happy to facilitate this. e: so as not to multipost and clutter up the thread, we would probably want to preserve the integrity of the input sources by putting D&D, at least temporarily, behind the paywall so that only SA members can see the link. We'd need coordination with Jeff or another admin to make that happen, but anonymizing the submitter and sticking the forum behind the paywall for x days would be a pretty decent control on it. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:53
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Yeah I agree that this is a major problem. The problem is there's a consistent tension between posters who feel that it's unfair when people do not assume good faith on their part, and posters who feel that they shouldn't have to humor people who they have determined to be posting in bad faith. Sometimes these are the same posters. I earnestly don't know how best to deal with this. I think step one is to stop interpreting any friction as a problem that needs a solution. If a bunch of people arguing, even indecorously or loudly, inherently needs a moderator response, then it's normal & natural that the situation becomes a game of jenga for you where you're like "how can I resolve this situation by removing the fewest people". You can't solve this issue if you're still asking yourself that question.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:55
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't think being a D&D mod is easy, but I think Fool of Sound is generally on point with his front-facing moderation and I have nothing bad to say. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, though. It might just be that CommieGIR and Ralph to hand out so many random, capricious punishments that he is generally able to escape the spotlight. I'll be real, I probably give out less probations because I've transitioned away from dealing with reports towards regularly reading the threads I'm interested in and moderating them directly. Moderating via reports sucks and is difficult, time consuming, and frustrating because they're lacking any context and when there are 40 reports a day minimum, at least 80% of them not worth bothering with, whichever mod is handling them tends to burn out towards the end of the list and starts making snap judgments. I've definitely done it plenty in the past.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. The reason the thread descended into chaos is because a mod got offended and had a meltdown by constantly replying to anyone who so much as expressed mild disagreement to their opinion on how things should be run while still posting like they were better than everyone else they were replying to. Do you think both the content and tone of this post will do anything to steer this situation towards anything other than further conflict?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:I'll be real, I probably give out less probations because I've transitioned away from dealing with reports towards regularly reading the threads I'm interested in and moderating them directly. Moderating via reports sucks and is difficult, time consuming, and frustrating because they're lacking any context and when there are 40 reports a day minimum, at least 80% of them not worth bothering with, whichever mod is handling them tends to burn out towards the end of the list and starts making snap judgments. I've definitely done it plenty in the past. Would it be possible, in a subforum with post volume as low as D&D, to completely disable reports? Free up the mods' time, so they can spend more time following actual threads; if something really bad comes up people can PM a mod. Maybe not practical, just an idea.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:The nice thing about something like Google Sheets, is that you can set protected sheets and ranges, so that you could take in feedback through a form, but not allow anyone to gently caress with it, while making the sheet visible to anyone with the link. Thanks for the offer. I do think we should probably do a permanent anonymous feedback box for D&D. My concern with a permanent feedback thread like the quieter forums have is that I strongly suspect they would turn into the Posters' Court of Every Single Thread and Post like the permanent mod feedback threads in QCS of yesteryear turned into, but an anonymous comment box could be a better solution for a forum like D&D.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:I'll be real, I probably give out less probations because I've transitioned away from dealing with reports towards regularly reading the threads I'm interested in and moderating them directly. Moderating via reports sucks and is difficult, time consuming, and frustrating because they're lacking any context and when there are 40 reports a day minimum, at least 80% of them not worth bothering with, whichever mod is handling them tends to burn out towards the end of the list and starts making snap judgments. I've definitely done it plenty in the past. I can't remember if it was bought up in this thread or the QCS one but as a serious bit of feedback have you considered reversals of fortunes of persistent offenders trying to win arguments via moderation? Like vexatious complaints aren't just a law of nature you have to endure, you can just light up a few people trying to play the system and that'll probably cut down on the number you have to deal with in future
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:Would it be possible, in a subforum with post volume as low as D&D, to completely disable reports? Free up the mods' time, so they can spend more time following actual threads; if something really bad comes up people can PM a mod. Maybe not practical, just an idea. I think the report button can technically be removed but you can get around that via url shenanigans. I think the big problem with the "mods just read the threads" approach is USnews, which in any of it's many incarnations over the years has always been too big, fast, and difficult to moderate. The only time during my tenure as mod where I feel like the thread was under control was when we had like 4 permanent IKs for it. It sucks because we consistently have quality conversation with relatively light moderation in the various spinoff threads, like the Afghanistan thread, but people don't want to post in them because USnews regulars don't like to follow the people they're debating into the specialized threads.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:04
|
|
|
multijoe posted:I can't remember if it was bought up in this thread or the QCS one but as a serious bit of feedback have you considered reversals of fortunes of persistent offenders trying to win arguments via moderation? Like vexatious complaints aren't just a law of nature you have to endure, you can just light up a few people trying to play the system and that'll probably cut down on the number you have to deal with in future The admins have made very clear that they do not want us to do this unless the poster is a really egregious case. We've had a few people get warnings in D&D, a even fewer get punished for them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 10:33 |
|
|
fool of sound posted:I think the report button can technically be removed but you can get around that via url shenanigans. I think the big problem with the "mods just read the threads" approach is USnews, which in any of it's many incarnations over the years has always been too big, fast, and difficult to moderate. The only time during my tenure as mod where I feel like the thread was under control was when we had like 4 permanent IKs for it. I dont think its so much that people don't want to follow but if you are having an organic conversation/discussion about something and someone says take it somewhere else, even in real life the conversation generally just stops. People aren't really behaving any differently here than real people in an office.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2021 21:06
|
|