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Lib and let die posted:buddy, let me tell you about anarchist twitter at least D&D mods don't set bedtimes; this is very important to doing socialism.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:22
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thatfatkid posted:Please don't put words in my mouth. That is nothing like what I've said that there is no mass slaughter of uyghurs, their quality of life, life expectancy has improved recently, they are allowed to worship as Muslims etc. and therefore what is happening is not a genocide. I don't dispute their being detention facilities, but those existing do not a genocide make. This is fundamentally the same argument that colonizers made about native populations, and yes "have you considered how the victims of ethnic cleansing benefit from being forcibly 'civilized'"is a verboten position.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:23
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DnD: *creates an ever-expanding definition of the word genocide to use as a cudgel against posting enemies and so they dont lose an argument* Someone: *brings up what an American general did to Native Americans* DnD mods: Pffff, someone pretending to be mad again. Fuckin concern troll. Lmfao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2021 15:24
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I used to read D&D often and occasionally post. I very rarely do now. I can't say it's 100% due to the very aggro moderation exhibited so well in this thread, but that's certainly a part. It feels gross to participate in a community where those individuals hold positions of authority and actually get rewarded for treating people like poo poo. Everything about the moderation in this forum drips with condescension and threatening undertones. I'm not going to hunt down a hundred quotes to justify that impression. Other people have already done that. But I will say that if the only people you listen to with regard to feedback are the people who continue to be happy with the status quo here, well... the whole point is kind of silly, isn't it? Anyway, I'm happy in c-spam now. Ironically discussions and debates are much more fruitful in a forum where people feel free to shitpost one day and effort post the next without fear of some aggro IK forum banning or probating you for some bullshit. So take my impression or leave it. It's your community now.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:25
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PhilippAchtel posted:I used to read D&D often and occasionally post. I very rarely do now. It's almost like we don't want the aggro poo poo posting here so I guess we're all on the same page.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:27
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Terrible Opinions posted:Maybe don't slip in a "have you considered how many Jews were born during the supposed Holocaust" bit. Which everyone else you're referring to managed to avoid. Terrible Opinions posted:So you do not believe that Canadian and American native school systems were genocide? These comparisons unintentionally erase the worst of the atrocities committed against those groups of people.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:28
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PhilippAchtel posted:I used to read D&D often and occasionally post. I very rarely do now. heh What is the reward, exactly?
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Oct 27, 2021 15:29
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Mellow Seas posted:heh Would you count 'Your own stickied thread that gets routinely cited as required pre-participation coursework' as a reward? I can think of one poster that's been given such a reward, with very little effort. The answer to your question is going to rely heavily on what constitutes a "reward" in what is essentially an economy of favor in a virtual space.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:33
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fool of sound posted:This is fundamentally the same argument that colonizers made about native populations, and yes "have you considered how the victims of ethnic cleansing benefit from being forcibly 'civilized'"is a verboten position. No it isn't. China, a nation with a history of being exploited by literal colonisers is being accused of mistreating the uyghur population by those very same colonisers. It's a transparent narrative that western states/media (spearheaded by everyone's favourite fundamentalist neocon Adrian Zenz) have pushed to rattle the sabre at China. Just ignore that these are the very same people that argued for the 2003 invasion of Iraq...
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Oct 27, 2021 15:36
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to reiterate eta the context Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Okay, so for me, the most useful part of this all was to just ask people to explain. I feel more than ever that what I described as my ideal D&D is what I ought to be pursuing. Here is a more brief version: gonna eat the probe *again* to say what i already knew. Stringent posted:need some time to make the post but i'll do this. i don't think you're going to do anything about it, but i will do it. Stringent posted:you may be sincere in this, i'm not a mind reader, i only know what i've seen previously from these feedback shocks. this poo poo is just going to continue, it's what they want and since they have access to the people who own the thing you're interacting with they are going to get what they want. he bought it, he doesn't want to think about it, they were in the right place, so here we are. enjoy it, lol. also, gently caress you ralph, you're a bitch (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2021 15:41
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So your argument is that you want to be a dick to people, but Jeffrey won't let you and that makes you mad.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:45
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thatfatkid posted:No it isn't. China, a nation with a history of being exploited by literal colonisers is being accused of mistreating the uyghur population by those very same colonisers. It's a transparent narrative that western states/media (spearheaded by everyone's favourite fundamentalist neocon Adrian Zenz) have pushed to rattle the sabre at China. Ok could you just clarify for me: do you believe that the western reports of ethnic cleansing are sometimes sensationalized, exaggerated, or poorly research OR that some level of harm is being directed at the Uyghurs but the benefits of Chinese occupation outweigh those harms OR that the harms do not exist at all?
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Oct 27, 2021 15:58
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Starks posted:I think if you adjusted this for # of posts, the china thread would be the most insane one on the forums. It has about half as many replies as the as the USNews thread and has been going for 8 years. Given that the chart you're quoting is for this year alone...jesus christ Just to follow up on this, I did some very rough calculations and these are the estimates I came up with: China thread: 3 mod actions per 100 posts in 2021 USNews: 1.1 mod actions per 100 posts USPol: 0.9 mod actions per 100 posts in 2021 So not only does the China thread generate by far the most probe hours on the forums, it also generates about 3 times as many moderator actions as the USPol threads on a per-post basis. Almost as if the moderation is way too heavy handed there.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:00
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CommieGIR posted:No, and this thread isn't the re-litigate probes thread. And your inability to expect mods to be fallible humans who make mistakes is interesting. You keep bringing this up like it's the only time you've ever slipped up and there was nothing that could be done about it. But the reality is the blow zone got closed down because someone posted rape apologia (and they're still posting right above you in this thread) and you only acted on it when you were forced to, and did the literal absolutely bare minimum. You are still continuing to defend this decision, from that very moment on, in that thread, in QCS, in this thread. The blow zone fell apart because people watched the disgraceful way D&D posters, and the active moderators in that thread, handled themselves and got angry. It's not because people couldn't be chill, it's because the moderation staff actively encourages the worst people and still refuse to acknowledge it.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:02
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Stringent posted:to reiterate That's exactly what dozens of people said would happen in both this thread and the QCS thread: "Those examples were too long, so I didn't read them, but they also weren't comprehensive enough, so they didn't prove anything conclusive. No, even literal threats to send a poster to Buchenwald or rape or genocide denial. (didn't read those either) Anyway, nothing's wrong, so nothing will be changed- the mods should be harsher and punish people more, the best way to fix D&D is more and harsher mod actions. I'm certainly not going to put in a few hours of my time to pick 2-3 new mods, that's too much work. Anyway, I'm glad this was permanently resolved." *fauci voice* too long didn't read, lol
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Oct 27, 2021 16:10
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CommieGIR posted:No, and this thread isn't the re-litigate probes thread. And your inability to expect mods to be fallible humans who make mistakes is interesting. So, just to be clear, mods are human and can make as many mistakes as they want and remain mods. No limit. But if a poster gets mad at a mod for giving a rape denier a comedy 6er, that's a permanent offense, and that poster should be thread- or forum-banned. Is that correct? Seems like a bit of a double standard. e: To follow up on our previous discussion: are you going to stop modding the climate change thread? Almost everyone who's mentioned it has specifically brought you up as the problem, a reason they don't post there anymore, and/or as a person who absolutely should not be modding that thread. What's your response?
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Oct 27, 2021 16:12
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Stringent posted:also, gently caress you ralph, you're a bitch As someone who pretty much only lurks in DnD (and to a lesser extent, CSPAM), my perspective on the issue with DnD moderation is that it is is heavy-handed and with an ideological bent to it, but it's at least partly because there are two subsets of "leftist" posters that inhabit SA: First are the ones that are capable of posting without resorting to the kind of insane aggroposting as evidenced here and elsewhere in this thread, and well, everywhere in the two politics forums. They still may get heated at times (probably gonna come with any political discussion), but are capable of posting reasonably. I could name a few examples of such posters but don't want to make this about them, or anyone in particular. Then there's the ones who seem to revel in being jackasses. Whether it's doing the middle school trying-to-toe-the-line-as-closely-as-possible thing on a given topic or situation, or just outright being needlessly hostile towards others, or whatever, it's clear their main intent is not really to discuss anything but to troll. It's fun to cyberbully, especially when you can try to justify it as politically righteous! I could name some of these posters, too. There's a good deal of ideological overlap between the two groups, and it feels like many wells of discussion have been poisoned because of the latter group. The Uyghur Genocide* is a good example. To be fair, there have been some super lovely things the DnD mods have done of their own accord. A lot of the discussion around Tara Reade, for instance. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So your argument is that you want to be a dick to people, but Jeffrey won't let you and that makes you mad. I refreshed the page when still trying to hammer out my thoughts, and honestly this is a bit more succinct in describing my observations. Some posters just want to be aggro assholes while justifying it in their own minds (and the minds of some others) as ideologically righteous, and when the mods crack down on certain topics and even opinions because of the shittiness of a few, everyone suffers and more people get mad. It's interpreted as "enforcing orthodoxy" (which it is, in a sense), but it's because some posters want to scream at others about their orthodoxy. Someone brought up earlier in this thread (or was it the other one? I don't know) that even after there's turnover with DnD mods and IKs the same problems persist. Really thinking one of the primary issues is mods having to deal with a cadre of keyboard warriors who think using slurs and calling people names is either going to bring about the revolution or make themselves feel better, or both. I'd get tired of dealing with the bullshit, too, and would probably resort to some heavy-handedness. What's a solution to this? I don't know. As observed in my first quoted post, some posters don't give a poo poo about punishments. Hell, it's a badge of honor, like they're a posting martyr. The thread- and forum- ban systems, while seeming like a good idea on paper to me, also seem pretty unwieldy in practice.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:12
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Fister Roboto posted:Telling people that they're not actually upset about something is a great way to handle criticism! if i see anyone praising his genocide of Native Americans, i'll be sure to let you know, buddy!
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Oct 27, 2021 16:13
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If commiegir cared at all about d&d he would give up that blue star, instead of continuing to make idiotic posts and have a meltdown even in this thread, while the other mods have to pretend nothing is wrong. It's beyond embarrassing. That's my feedback, he should resign, also probe anyone who starts a post with "so what you're saying is..."
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Oct 27, 2021 16:17
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bane mask golem posted:That's exactly what dozens of people said would happen in both this thread and the QCS thread: "Those examples were too long, so I didn't read them, but they also weren't comprehensive enough, so they didn't prove anything conclusive. No, even literal threats to send a poster to Buchenwald or rape or genocide denial. (didn't read those either) Anyway, nothing's wrong, so nothing will be changed- the mods should be harsher and punish people more, the best way to fix D&D is more and harsher mod actions. I'm certainly not going to put in a few hours of my time to pick 2-3 new mods, that's too much work. Anyway, I'm glad this was permanently resolved." Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you want to happen is not happening because a lot of other people don't want it to happen? Did you read the posts in this thread and in the QCS thread saying that people didn't want to deal with angry, antagonistic posting? Maybe the moderators have an obligation to consider those voices, too?
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Oct 27, 2021 16:18
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Main Paineframe posted:if i see anyone praising his genocide of Native Americans, i'll be sure to let you know, buddy! It is a rather vague sentiment, "Do it again, Uncle Billy" do what again, exactly? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2021 16:18
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So your argument is that you want to be a dick to people, but Jeffrey won't let you and that makes you mad. This is basically the crux of everything, it's why some people get so mad about spin off threads, because they don't really want to discuss the issue they want to yell at the "libs" in USpol/news, and the people they want to own don't move to the spinoff thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:22
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"You're pretending to be mad in order to own your posting enemies" seems like it violates the good faith rule, which asks that people not only post in good faith but assume that others are doing so as well. For general feedback on that rule the first part seems very difficult to enforce as it is difficult to know another person's mind, but, the second part seems very easy to define and enforce. And accusing someone of pretending to be mad to win an argument, well, that's pretty clearly not allowed -- and shouldn't be allowed.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:25
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fool of sound posted:Ok could you just clarify for me: do you believe that the western reports of ethnic cleansing are sometimes sensationalized, exaggerated, or poorly research OR that some level of harm is being directed at the Uyghurs but the benefits of Chinese occupation outweigh those harms OR that the harms do not exist at all? Asking because ethnic cleansing is up there with genocide in terms of things that could cause drama, so we should be attempt to be precise in our language. Especially the mods. TipTow posted:Someone brought up earlier in this thread (or was it the other one? I don't know) that even after there's turnover with DnD mods and IKs the same problems persist. Really thinking one of the primary issues is mods having to deal with a cadre of keyboard warriors who think using slurs and calling people names is either going to bring about the revolution or make themselves feel better, or both. I'd get tired of dealing with the bullshit, too, and would probably resort to some heavy-handedness. Mellow Seas posted:Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you want to happen is not happening because a lot of other people don't want it to happen? Did you read the posts in this thread and in the QCS thread saying that people didn't want to deal with angry, antagonistic posting? Maybe the moderators have an obligation to consider those voices, too? *Fishbone precedent
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Oct 27, 2021 16:28
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Main Paineframe posted:if i see anyone praising his genocide of Native Americans, i'll be sure to let you know, buddy! LOL this sounds exactly like someone who does the whole "you know, at least mousilini made the trains run on time" shtick. Genociders are Genociders just like rapists are just rapists. You don't have to give em a hand. They really don't need it.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:30
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I haven't paid much attention to the various claims, but is that a thing? Ethnic cleansing is about removing a population from a territory (whether internally or about forcing them entirely out of your country), which is not an accusation I've seen made against China. I've seen the words used, but not claims fitting the definition. Sorry, I mistakenly believed that forced assimilation was a kind of ethnic cleansing but upon checking I found that they're typically used in distinct ways. Pretend I said 'forced assimilation' in my prior post instead.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:38
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lobster shirt posted:"You're pretending to be mad in order to own your posting enemies" seems like it violates the good faith rule, which asks that people not only post in good faith but assume that others are doing so as well. For general feedback on that rule the first part seems very difficult to enforce as it is difficult to know another person's mind, but, the second part seems very easy to define and enforce. And accusing someone of pretending to be mad to win an argument, well, that's pretty clearly not allowed -- and shouldn't be allowed. I don't think the argument that people are making requires people to fake their position. It's totally possible to genuinely feel strongly about something AND be a complete aggro rear end in a top hat about it. That's probably more likely than faking being mad, but being actually legitimately mad still doesn't excuse being a complete rear end to everyone at all times.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:38
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enki42 posted:I don't think the argument that people are making requires people to fake their position. It's totally possible to genuinely feel strongly about something AND be a complete aggro rear end in a top hat about it. That's probably more likely than faking being mad, but being actually legitimately mad still doesn't excuse being a complete rear end to everyone at all times. Maybe if people who are mad weren't condescended to, on an extremely frequent basis, by their self-appointed "betters", it would help resolve some of this strife? Here's a conversation from a recent D&D thread re: whether non-parents reaped any benefit of voting for Joe Biden from the $600 child tax credit would that is absolutely monstrous and doesn't have any punishment attached to the most monstrous, condescending responses. Poster A posted:How much do my wife and I and our dysfunctional reproductive organs get each month? Poster B posted:how many children are you paying to support? "poor children got money, where's my money" is sure a thing you can say about those lucky duckies!!!! i guess Poster A posted:Well there's me, there's my wife, and there's the $10,000+ worth of debt we took on during the pandemic. Poster B posted:i dunno, you go take food out of a hungry baby's mouth and explain how they're not as worthy as you or even they're equally worthy so hand it over if you want Poster C, quoting and responding to Poster A posted:You personally are definitely not worthy.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:46
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fool of sound posted:Sorry, I mistakenly believed that forced assimilation was a kind of ethnic cleansing but upon checking I found that they're typically used in distinct ways. Pretend I said 'forced assimilation' in my prior post instead. Wouldn't this exact post, made by someone who isn't in the d&d in-group, be ban-able genocide denialism?
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Oct 27, 2021 16:47
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Best Friends posted:Wouldn't this exact post, made by someone who isn't in the d&d in-group, be ban-able genocide denialism? No
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Oct 27, 2021 16:49
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Best Friends posted:Wouldn't this exact post, made by someone who isn't in the d&d in-group, be ban-able genocide denialism? Not if I was modding it, and I'd yell at another mod who banned someone for saying 'forced assimilation' instead of 'cultural genocide'. I'm fine with people not using the term 'genocide' because it's obnoxiously loaded and tends attract arguments over exact definitions. I'm not fine with people arguing that anything bad happening at all is western propaganda.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:50
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Best Friends posted:Wouldn't this exact post, made by someone who isn't in the d&d in-group, be ban-able genocide denialism? It sure was! Hey FoS, any plans to actually read the multiple effortposts made in response to your questions about sexual assault from yesterday, or is it another case of demanding effort from rape survivors to educate you and then ignoring their work and/or punishing them for it?
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Oct 27, 2021 16:51
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ram dass in hell posted:It sure was! Hey FoS, any plans to actually read the multiple effortposts made in response to your questions about sexual assault from yesterday, or is it another case of demanding effort from rape survivors to educate you and then ignoring their work and/or punishing them for it?
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Oct 27, 2021 16:51
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ram dass in hell posted:It sure was! Hey FoS, any plans to actually read the multiple effortposts made in response to your questions about sexual assault from yesterday, or is it another case of demanding effort from rape survivors to educate you and then ignoring their work and/or punishing them for it? Yes, once I get through this issue I'll return to it.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:52
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The D&D mods are literally incapable of not mixing it up and getting into fights in the feedback thread. That might be one of the problems.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:54
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enki42 posted:I don't think the argument that people are making requires people to fake their position. It's totally possible to genuinely feel strongly about something AND be a complete aggro rear end in a top hat about it. That's probably more likely than faking being mad, but being actually legitimately mad still doesn't excuse being a complete rear end to everyone at all times. I don't think good/bad faith has anything to do with being aggro or not. Like, people should respond to others earnestly, that is, taking what the other poster said seriously. Taking the Sherman thing as an example, someone could respond like "gently caress off, burning down Atlanta kicked rear end and I will continue to celebrate it" which is aggro I guess, but takes the issue seriously, or someone could write a relatively polite response. Both seem to be following the rule of assuming that a post is in good faith, and are responding to what is raised. Assuming bad faith is, like I said, saying "you don't believe that, you're only saying it because of forum wars".
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Oct 27, 2021 16:54
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It's cool. I only get more frustrated and lash out more and more every time someone asks me to educate them on "what's wrong with DnD: re : sexual assault" and I'm sure by the end of the day I'll end up eating a probe because it fucks me up to explain the same poo poo over and over again to an audience that only pretends to care.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:54
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fool of sound posted:Not if I was modding it, and I'd yell at another mod who banned someone for saying 'forced assimilation' instead of 'cultural genocide'. I'm fine with people not using the term 'genocide' because it's obnoxiously loaded and tends attract arguments over exact definitions. I'm not fine with people arguing that anything bad happening at all is western propaganda. The post is literally and explicitly denying that genocide is happening. Genocide denial is the specific red line that has been brought up over and over. You are changing the rules to say that now genocide denial is allowed and mod authorized, and the new rule is you can't deny that forced assimilation is happening. I think that's a good rule change, personally, but rule changes happening by mod decree deep in existing threads without the mods even acknowledging it's a rule change is part of the core problem why d&d is so hostile to anyone in the out group. It's complete Calvinball.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:56
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Best Friends posted:The post is literally and explicitly denying that genocide is happening. Genocide denial is the specific red line that has been brought up over and over. You are changing the rules to say that now genocide denial is allowed and mod authorized, and the new rule is you can't deny that forced assimilation is happening. Exactly, thank you for summing it up so succinctly!
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Oct 27, 2021 16:58
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Best Friends posted:Wouldn't this exact post, made by someone who isn't in the d&d in-group, be ban-able genocide denialism? nope, it's part 3 of Fool of Sound's question. It's about whether you think the event happened / is happening, not the words used to describe it. Seems obvious!
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Oct 27, 2021 17:00
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