Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

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Nae: Sep 3, 2020; what.

rohan posted:

I�m a bit late to this, but I saw your initial query and couldn�t resist taking my own stab at it. As with my previous attempt, I�ve had to take some liberties with characterisation and events that I�m not clear on, but hopefully the intent comes through.
...
I�m also assuming you mention it being an epistolary novel in the word count + comps section?

Thanks for the rework! I do mention that it's epistolary in the housekeeping section, since I use a couple of recent epistolaries as comps (This is How You Lose the Time War, Piranesi) to show that I did actually check the market before I made such a chaotic move.

Also just for the record, word count is 109,000.

General Battuta posted:

This is like ten miles better (and I�m not saying that because you used some of mine, the specific changes you made really really strengthened it). Now I actually want to read this. Well done.

Thanks! I'm glad this version works. Always nice to see improvement.

Nae fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Sep 18, 2021

# ? Sep 18, 2021 16:12

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# ? May 12, 2024 03:39

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

ultrachrist posted:

For context, since the first two examples are in the first two paragraphs, here's the beginning of the story. The (1) is a footnote.

In context the sentence strikes me as a little abstract considering the character is experiencing the same thing the earth is.

I've got ~100,000 words I'm supposed to be editing but it's easier to gently caress around with stuff someone else wrote so for funsies and/or procrastination (hope you don't mind):

quote:

The air dripped. I trudged through the woods with a 2 x 4 x 96 whitewood stud slung across my shoulders. The earth labored beside me in the clutch of mid-August. The darkest^a shade offers no balm; the thermometer reads the same at noon as it does at midnight. Sweat washed me�soiled me�pooled in the soft hollows of my body. My neck throbbed under the pressure of the stud digging into my skin.^bc When the pain reached my predetermined threshold(1) I switched positions, the stud tucked beneath my right arm with my left crossed over my body to keep it steady. The wood rubbed against my inner wrist, tempting hungry welts to rise from my skin and meet it. When the threshold was met again I slung the stud back over my shoulders.

Down the narrow trails to Wayne Pelletier's table saw. A labyrinth until you realize that every path through the forest leads to the pond's fragrant shores, then his ranch house was a snaking mile through the pines.^d My bed was broken and I intended to fix it. An impossible task with a 2 x 4 x 96, but a pair of 2 x 2 x 84's would do just fine. Instead of sensibly driving the stud around the pond the long way I had opted for the path through the woods^ef that I once took to meet up with Wayne's son, Roger, in the sunsplotched torpor of our youth.

a. Connects night and shade, maybe.

b. The structure of this turns the stud digging and the neck throbbing into two separate things, as if the stud wasn't digging into him before but it is now, but the next sentence suggests the opposite.

c. 'Dense' is a confusing descriptor for pressure. I would kind of follow if it was supposed to be setting up a contrast with the ambient pressure of the humid air but that isn't present. (Quick/dirty ex. "Sweat washed me�soiled me�wrung by the air's weight to pool in the soft hollows of my body.")

d. The ranch line is vexatious. This was the cleanest version I could come up with.

e. I don't think you need to tell us that this is sentimental; the way the path is described in relation to youth etc already communicates the idea, and it does it better.

e. "shorter as the crow flies" feels like an errant detail. It's like you're setting up a contrast (e.g. "shorter as the crow flies, which I can't") but it gets dropped and "shorter as the crow flies" just hangs around anyway.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:18

ultrachrist: Sep 27, 2008

Wallet posted:

I've got ~100,000 words I'm supposed to be editing but it's easier to gently caress around with stuff someone else wrote so for funsies and/or procrastination (hope you don't mind):

Of course I don't mind! Thanks for the edits and suggestions. It's always useful to see another interpretation since, in addition to generating new ways to phrase things, it forces me to consider what I'm trying to communicate in the first place. I particularly like the punctuation change to the sweat line and will likely use it.

1. I see you moved the footnote. Someone else in the workshop had suggested this too since it's the first occurrence of the threshold, but to me it feels like the reader doesn't have enough understanding of what's happening until they finish that sentence. The footnote references the switches, which aren't described at the moment of the link in the main text.

2/b. Not following. I'm reading both sentences as describing almost the same thing with yours putting emphasis on the throbbing. Related: I used 'dense' to try and articulate the sensation of a heavy object placing all its weight (pressure) on one part of a person's body. It feels like the weight of the object is concentrated entirely in the area touching the skin, as though it is very dense. I'll consider some alternatives to describe this.

3/e. "as the crow flies" is an idiom. It means a direct line between two points, as opposed to a road or path that might wind around objects. I'm playing a little fast and loose with this since he's not walking a literal direct line, just a shorter route than the road. Agree it's probably not essential though animals and idioms (and animal idioms) figure heavily in the story.

# ? Sep 19, 2021 04:21

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

ultrachrist posted:

1. I see you moved the footnote. Someone else in the workshop had suggested this too since it's the first occurrence of the threshold, but to me it feels like the reader doesn't have enough understanding of what's happening until they finish that sentence. The footnote references the switches, which aren't described at the moment of the link in the main text.

To me the use of 'predetermined', particularly without any agency assigned to it ('the predetermined') or the additional information in the footnote, read rather strangely and led me down the path of some outside actor imposing upon him a threshold of pain that he can't exceed or something.

ultrachrist posted:

2/b. Not following. I'm reading both sentences as describing almost the same thing with yours putting emphasis on the throbbing.

I think it's the 'and' in the original sentence which separates the two things in a way that a comma wouldn't. Like as a mini/toy example "It dug into my shoulder and it throbbed" reads to me as an action that just occured and a response to that action, whereas "It dug into my shoulder, it throbbed" reads to me more like a stative.

ultrachrist posted:

3/e. "as the crow flies" is an idiom. It means a direct line between two points, as opposed to a road or path that might wind around objects. I'm playing a little fast and loose with this since he's not walking a literal direct line, just a shorter route than the road. Agree it's probably not essential though animals and idioms (and animal idioms) figure heavily in the story.

I'm familiar but the distance as the crow flies is the same for either of the routes because the start and end points are the same whether he took the truck or not. What initially struck me as weird about is that you just told us that this route is less sensible, but then you tell us that it's the shorter route as the crow flies which feels like a counter argument to the point you've just made: It seems less sensible, but actually it's shorter (if you're a crow, anyway).

Wallet fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 19, 2021

# ? Sep 19, 2021 13:51

Dr.D-O: Jan 3, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

How do you find someone to be a beta reader for a novel without being super imposing or seeming like you're trying to impress them?

In the past, any time I've asked people to read something I've written they always either are annoyed because it's work or they think I'm trying to put on an affectation.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 15:54

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Dr.D-O posted:

How do you find someone to be a beta reader for a novel without being super imposing or seeming like you're trying to impress them?

In the past, any time I've asked people to read something I've written they always either are annoyed because it's work or they think I'm trying to put on an affectation.

You could offer to beta read someone else�s book crit for crit. You could also offer to pay for their lunch. I find that even my closest friends are like I�ll get to it when I get to it. It�s harder than getting someone to go to the gym with you.

Also: swag! Offer them swag.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 17:42

Nae: Sep 3, 2020; what.

Dr.D-O posted:

How do you find someone to be a beta reader for a novel without being super imposing or seeming like you're trying to impress them?

In the past, any time I've asked people to read something I've written they always either are annoyed because it's work or they think I'm trying to put on an affectation.

I've gotten betas from this very thread! Usually I do it by posting the query letter or a pitch, then saying 'hey does anyone want to beta read this?' Most people ignore it, some say they can't, a few say yes: easy peasy. Give it a try!

# ? Oct 5, 2021 19:09

Dr.D-O: Jan 3, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

White Chocolate posted:

Also: swag! Offer them swag.

I don't really know what swag I could offer anyone.

Nae posted:

I've gotten betas from this very thread! Usually I do it by posting the query letter or a pitch, then saying 'hey does anyone want to beta read this?' Most people ignore it, some say they can't, a few say yes: easy peasy. Give it a try!

Oh, great. I didn't realize that was an option. Thanks for letting me know!

# ? Oct 5, 2021 19:31

Leng: May 13, 2006; One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind

No other road
No other way
No day but today

Dr.D-O posted:

Oh, great. I didn't realize that was an option. Thanks for letting me know!

You can also PM mods in TBB and ask if you could post in the relevant TBB genre thread. Basically, you just want to find where people who would love your book hang out and pitch them.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 19:58

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

It's quite a lot that you're asking for, is the thing: not just reading 70-100k, but also the potential drama of telling you it's terrible.

You could start with a chapter? When you do give people the novel be very clear what you want from them, which might include just knowing when they gave up.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 20:00

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Also you can always post a thread in CC and pimp it here. No need to ask for permission.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 20:01

newts: Oct 10, 2012

sebmojo posted:

Also you can always post a thread in CC and pimp it here. No need to ask for permission.

This is what worked for me! I got a lot of very, very helpful comments and now I�m pretty much ready to publish. You might also post your book on r/betareaders for a reading swap.

# ? Oct 5, 2021 20:38

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Dr.D-O posted:

I don't really know what swag I could offer anyone.

Oh, great. I didn't realize that was an option. Thanks for letting me know!

For one book I wrote with a more contemporary scifi fantsy I am having military patches made.
Also coins because military.

For the other one it�s going to be a custom tarot style deck of some of the characters.

Leng and newts know what I�m talking about :cheersbird:

# ? Oct 6, 2021 02:21

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Hi guys, I was thinking of starting a NaNoWriMo 2021 thread. Any interest?

# ? Oct 13, 2021 00:22

newts: Oct 10, 2012

Sure! Go for it. (I am totally unprepared)

# ? Oct 13, 2021 00:39

kaom: Jan 20, 2007

Yes please this is the first time I�m going to try it and I need all the moral support I can get!

# ? Oct 13, 2021 00:58

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

kk will put the post up in an hour or so

# ? Oct 13, 2021 01:00

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Half my writing group.. �jumps in�.

# ? Oct 13, 2021 02:04

Leng: May 13, 2006; One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind

No other road
No other way
No day but today

White Chocolate posted:

Half my writing group.. “jumps in”.

Well let's make that all of us. I'm psyched for NaNoWriMo!

# ? Oct 13, 2021 04:08

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

NANOWRIMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3981846&pagenumber=1#post518444062

# ? Oct 13, 2021 04:34

Doom Mathematic: Sep 2, 2008

What is a regular amount of money to be offered for featuring a (2000-word) story in a science fiction anthology?

# ? Oct 18, 2021 00:25

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

The current SFWA minimum rate to qualify as a 'pro market' is 8 cents a word as of 2019. So about 160 bucks minimum.

# ? Oct 18, 2021 00:51

Madurai: Jun 26, 2012

General Battuta posted:

The current SFWA minimum rate to qualify as a 'pro market' is 8 cents a word as of 2019. So about 160 bucks minimum.

This represents the first pay raise SF writers have gotten since about 1941.

# ? Oct 19, 2021 21:52

D34THROW: Jan 29, 2012; RETAIL RETAIL LISTEN TO ME BITCH ABOUT RETAIL

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

# ? Oct 27, 2021 16:38

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

Monster of Elendhaven, a book I very much enjoyed, started off as fanfiction about the author and her boyfriend's D&D campaign. So it's not totally impossible but I feel like only involving yourself in the process would by necessity shut you out of situations you might never encounter otherwise.

# ? Oct 27, 2021 16:46

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3959142

# ? Oct 27, 2021 17:11

Zaepho: Oct 31, 2013

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

Check out the LitRPG genre for some examples of this. Personally, I've been enjoying the Viridian Gate series which seems to do this well.

# ? Oct 27, 2021 18:01

SimonChris: Apr 24, 2008; The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.; Grimey Drawer

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

https://www.ironswornrpg.com/

Check out solo RPG's such as Ironsworn, which are pretty much made for this purpose. There is also a thread for such games.

# ? Oct 27, 2021 18:19

D34THROW: Jan 29, 2012; RETAIL RETAIL LISTEN TO ME BITCH ABOUT RETAIL

Oh poo poo, thanks, goons! I wrote sort of a prehistory to the world yesterday, my first serious delve into writing in several years, so I'm excited to start fleshing it out through actual play and writing!

Ironsworn looks cool if I ever want to do a dungeon crawler sort of thing but I doubt fantasy fits postapoc fiction :v:

Will definitely check out the solo RPG thread, I didn't even know that was a thing.

# ? Oct 28, 2021 15:40

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

https://malazan.fandom.com/wiki/Role-playing_Game_Origins_of_the_Malazan_Series

I have a lot of affectionate critiques about the Malazan series, but it's a very notable example of what you're talking about!

# ? Oct 29, 2021 09:40

Leng: May 13, 2006; One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind

No other road
No other way
No day but today

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

Sitting Here posted:

Malazan series

Also the entire Dragonlance franchise. I've not played the games based in that universe but I have read quite a few of those books!

And you should check out both the SFF KU thread (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3844346) which is where we talk about LitRPG and cultivation novels/progression fantasy, and also the web serial thread (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3831668) which also has a lot of the same, because a lot of the self-pub authors start on a web serial platform to gain a following, then later compiling their chapters and editing it into a self-pub book and self-publishing via KDP, etc.

# ? Oct 29, 2021 11:02

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS: Oct 3, 2003; What do you think it means, bitch?

Breaking news:

# ? Nov 4, 2021 17:51

limaCAT: Dec 22, 2007; il pistone e male; Slippery Tilde

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:

Breaking news:

What the hell.

# ? Nov 4, 2021 18:10

Junpei: Oct 4, 2015; Can't post for 11 years!

D34THROW posted:

Anyone ever successfully written a short story (or short story series) or novel (or novel series) using an RPG system to determine the flow of things? Basically playing, say GURPS, against yourself. I'm thinking of doing so because I've tried collaborative writing before and I really like the unpredictability of it, so I'm thinking RPGs as a guide might be a way to incorporate that into my writing proper.

The novel-turned-anime "Record of Lodoss War" started out as a written version of a D&D campaign played by some Japanese guys, but rewritten and punched up in some ways (such as the male Fighter ending up with the female elf girl), just as an example.

Also, hi, new here, working on a Japanese-myth inspired YA fantasy with a female heroine. Definitely too long to be put down since I intend it to be kind of Deltora Quest-y, with books in the 100-200 page range over a longer-than-trilogy number of books.

The first question I'm asking is mostly a matter of avoiding an Evil Triangle:

-Don't want the books to be too 'weeby' (Solution: Avoid honorifics like -kun, -san, -senpai, -sensei, etc. as well as stuff like "oni-chan" and the like)
-Don't want the books to be too 'historical' (ie. I'm pointedly avoiding using words that are over-associated with Japan: Swords are swords, not 'katanas', the Emperor is an Emperor, not a 'Shogun', Assassins are assassins, not 'ninja', etc.)
-Don't want the books to just be a regular YA fantasy but with characters having names like Haruka, Takumi, Saburo, etc. etc. (mostly to be solved with more subtle touches, like kitsune and oni and the like)

Do you have any tips on avoiding said Evil Triangle?

# ? Nov 5, 2021 09:43

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:

Breaking news:

Maria prefers vibing about trans women's writing until they get harassed into the hospital

# ? Nov 5, 2021 15:26

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS: Oct 3, 2003; What do you think it means, bitch?

General Battuta posted:

Maria prefers vibing about trans women's writing until they get harassed into the hospital

Not aware of any of that, sorry. I can take it down if it�s too much.

# ? Nov 5, 2021 16:02

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Nah, it's personal beef over the Isabel Fall thing. I don't imagine an image macro is going to badly affect people.

# ? Nov 5, 2021 16:24

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

Junpei posted:

-Don't want the books to be too 'weeby' (Solution: Avoid honorifics like -kun, -san, -senpai, -sensei, etc. as well as stuff like "oni-chan" and the like)
-Don't want the books to be too 'historical' (ie. I'm pointedly avoiding using words that are over-associated with Japan: Swords are swords, not 'katanas', the Emperor is an Emperor, not a 'Shogun', Assassins are assassins, not 'ninja', etc.)
-Don't want the books to just be a regular YA fantasy but with characters having names like Haruka, Takumi, Saburo, etc. etc. (mostly to be solved with more subtle touches, like kitsune and oni and the like)

Do you have any tips on avoiding said Evil Triangle?

I'm not entirely clear on what the question is, but I guess base it on actual historical research into the mythology you want to base it on instead of working from modern interpretations? I don't think you can really work in that space without inviting the association/comparison.

# ? Nov 5, 2021 16:28

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS: Oct 3, 2003; What do you think it means, bitch?

General Battuta posted:

image macro

Showing your age here :allears:

I thought about telling someone about this the other day when they were talking about memes but I figured it would just come across as :corsair:

# ? Nov 5, 2021 17:00

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# ? May 12, 2024 03:39

kaom: Jan 20, 2007

Junpei posted:

The first question I'm asking is mostly a matter of avoiding an Evil Triangle:

-Don't want the books to be too 'weeby' (Solution: Avoid honorifics like -kun, -san, -senpai, -sensei, etc. as well as stuff like "oni-chan" and the like)
-Don't want the books to be too 'historical' (ie. I'm pointedly avoiding using words that are over-associated with Japan: Swords are swords, not 'katanas', the Emperor is an Emperor, not a 'Shogun', Assassins are assassins, not 'ninja', etc.)
-Don't want the books to just be a regular YA fantasy but with characters having names like Haruka, Takumi, Saburo, etc. etc. (mostly to be solved with more subtle touches, like kitsune and oni and the like)

Do you have any tips on avoiding said Evil Triangle?

This project sounds really neat! But I feel like you might be overthinking this, to be honest. What makes something weeby to me is when a work gets stuff wrong (especially if it�s obviously pulling from a pop culture reference rather than history/myth), or fetishizes things as �better� than other parts of the world while glossing over issues that were/are a thing in Japan. The word choice doesn�t matter too much unless it�s going overboard - like I agree about not including honorifics, although even then some are reasonably well-known like sensei and seeing one or two in context to mark a serious difference in decorum wouldn�t bother me.

It might help you to think about what you want the draw to be for a reader - are you looking for readers interested in the Japanese angle of this? Because then minimizing it doesn�t really do you any favours IMO.

# ? Nov 5, 2021 19:22

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

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