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"I want it all in one bag, but I don't want the bag to be too heavy". You will have to choose between serious, effortful posting, and friction-free newsfeed poo poo. You can't have both. It seems like most of the actual current-day participants of D&D prefer the latter. Even the smaller threads that are easy to moderate are easier to moderate because they actively choose to foster that environment. Jeffrey says he wants something different. I think most people are ignoring htat because that's what the SA staff always ays at the end of these threads & nothing ever happens to change things so the current D&D posters know there's no risk of Jeffrey getting what he wants.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:51
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30.5 Days posted:Because ultimately serious debate has to get to the bottom of why people believe what they do. There is a difference in belief between two posters and even if we accept beforehand that their views are both alike in dignity, the difference comes from various assumptions and short cuts in reasoning and being misinformed or just confused or just miscommunication. You can't have a serious debate where these things aren't on the table to be discussed. So you have to be okay with either friction or homogeny. Or you could just not dig too deep into things and keep discussion light. If you refuse to accept any of these options then the thread will whip back and forth between them. There are a lot of people here who, if you made them choose, they'd choose homogeny and I think that's just fine. The moderators insist on not deciding that they're going to have a space with none of the above, despite the fact that they have never been able to accomplish this, ever. The non-uspol threads get by because they are willing to make a loving decision, even if only subconsciously. I explicitly want friction, and I think it exists in D&D (except apparently in USPol?). I don't think friction and respecting the other person's argument are mutually exclusive though, friction doesn't need to equal thunderdome at all times. The main reason I'm not going to C-SPAM and abandoning D&D is because either the threads I post in are indistinguishable from the D&D equivalent (canada threads), or they're echo chambers of the worst kind where there's absolutely no disagreement on anything and everyone's just cheerleading their own viewpoint and basking in the glow of how much smarter they are than everyone else (covid)
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Oct 27, 2021 20:51
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's completely reasonable to say that this is not the place for debate, but you can see from jeffrey's conclusions, posted above, that he wants to double down on this being a place for serious effortful politics posting. This is going to happen with, what, zero adversarial engagement between posters? You want a place with less friction. Like I said, that's fine. But that is contrary to what has been posted as the direction of D&D, by the owner of this site, just a page earlier. There is place for serious debate, but A) it's not in the news thread, and B) the mods aren't going to compel someone do debate to another poster's satisfaction. This is an asynchronous, open, minimally formatted medium. This isn't Lincoln-Douglas debate. Nobody is going to declare winners and losers, and people aren't always going to gracefully admit defeat and change their minds. That isn't what this forum is for. Debate is an educational exercise both for the participants and audience.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:52
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's completely reasonable to say that this is not the place for debate, but you can see from jeffrey's conclusions, posted above, that he wants to double down on this being a place for serious effortful politics posting. This is going to happen with, what, zero adversarial engagement between posters? You want a place with less friction. Like I said, that's fine. But that is contrary to what has been posted as the direction of D&D, by the owner of this site, just a page earlier. That's what the other threads are for... Take the space thread for example. It moves slow, but has bursts of activity when someone posts something worthy of discussions. People want to talk about current news in the news thread. However, nobody is obligated to engage with your posts.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:52
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30.5 Days posted:Because ultimately serious debate has to get to the bottom of why people believe what they do. There is a difference in belief between two posters and even if we accept beforehand that their views are both alike in dignity, the difference comes from various assumptions and short cuts in reasoning and being misinformed or just confused or just miscommunication. You can't have a serious debate where these things aren't on the table to be discussed. So you have to be okay with either friction or homogeny. Or you could just not dig too deep into things and keep discussion light. If you refuse to accept any of these options then the thread will whip back and forth between them. There are a lot of people here who, if you made them choose, they'd choose homogeny and I think that's just fine. The moderators insist on not deciding that they're going to have a space with none of the above, despite the fact that they have never been able to accomplish this, ever. The non-uspol threads get by because they are willing to make a loving decision, even if only subconsciously. This is a better version of what I was trying to say and I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Democrats. But this post nails it. If you really want this to be a debate forum with varied views you need to understand that there are two ideological factions on this site with fundamentally irreconcilable beliefs. So you can have a debate forum with non-stop mudslinging, or you can have an ideologically homogeneous current events chat forum. Those are your options. What you can't have is a debate forum where everyone gets along and no amount of rules or bans or feedback threads are gonna change that.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:53
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a unpopular leader attampts to hold onto to power by changing some of his policies to what the populist leaders have been demanding for years. he is shocked, and frankly disgusted to find that some the people still demand his resignation, despite his gracious reforms. how can they be so vile!? arrogant! these people... they must be shown their place
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Oct 27, 2021 20:53
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The news thread is not the place for you to debate the finer points of each posters belief and they are not required to engage with you.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:55
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's completely reasonable to say that this is not the place for debate, but you can see from jeffrey's conclusions, posted above, that he wants to double down on this being a place for serious effortful politics posting. This is going to happen with, what, zero adversarial engagement between posters? You want a place with less friction. Like I said, that's fine. But that is contrary to what has been posted as the direction of D&D, by the owner of this site, just a page earlier. There's a lot more to politics and the D&D forum than the USNews thread. The USNews thread specifically is a bad place for a serious debate, because it is by design a light discussion news aggregation thread. There's plenty of serious debate to be had in other political threads.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:56
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is pepsi ok posted:This is a better version of what I was trying to say and I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Democrats. But this post nails it. If you really want this to be a debate forum with varied views you need to understand that there are two ideological factions on this site with fundamentally irreconcilable beliefs. So you can have a debate forum with non-stop mudslinging, or you can have an ideologically homogeneous current events chat forum. Those are your options. What you can't have is a debate forum where everyone gets along and no amount of rules or bans or feedback threads are gonna change that. I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters? Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's what the other threads are for... fool of sound posted:There is place for serious debate, but A) it's not in the news thread, and B) the mods aren't going to compel someone do debate to another poster's satisfaction. This is an asynchronous, open, minimally formatted medium. This isn't Lincoln-Douglas debate. Nobody is going to declare winners and losers, and people aren't always going to gracefully admit defeat and change their minds. That isn't what this forum is for. Debate is an educational exercise both for the participants and audience. Yes, nobody is forced to participate in debate. That is my point. You plan to have a debate forum where people by and large do not want to debate. So given that they are not going to be forced, how successful do you foresee that being?
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Oct 27, 2021 20:57
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Also, lol at: "this forum's primary charter is now going to be serious debate. also the USNews thread is not for debate. also about half of the posts in this forum are in the USNews thread" MAKE IT MAKE SENSE
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Oct 27, 2021 20:58
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters? OK, you keep conflating the USNews thread with the totality of D&D. Please clarify which one you are referring to.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:58
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Deteriorata posted:OK, you keep conflating the USNews thread with the totality of D&D. Please clarify which one you are referring to. I am conflating D&D with the place where most of D&D's posts are stored. Fascinating.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:59
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters? Mellow Seas has debated at length to the point that they've been repeatedly probated for becoming abusive. I suspect they decline to engage now because they recognize their behavior when they do so has gotten them in trouble. And the forum is debate AND discussion. People are allowed to participate in the latter and not the former, if they wish. USNews is first and foremost a discussion thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:00
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"It's strange that certain posters want USNEWS to be less like D&D and more like CSPAM - there's already CSPAM, so USNEWS should just be moved there." I feel that this is the sort of conclusion we are slowly moving towards with these frankly bizarre lines of argument.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:00
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30.5 Days posted:I am conflating D&D with the place where most of D&D's posts are stored. Fascinating. They are not the same thing. Please clarify which you wish to refer to.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:01
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters? It's Debate AND Discussion... The US News thread just caters to the latter where topic threads trend towards the former. Why is this so difficult for people and why are they so caught up in the drat name.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:01
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Because we had a huge-rear end QCS thread where one of the topics of discussion was the tension between debate and discussion, and then it was closed and a few days later jeffrey made a post where he said "ok the future of D&D is effortposting and debate" and now everyone's saying "no you don't get it, it's the same aimless sludge it always has been"
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Oct 27, 2021 21:02
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Ruzihm posted:"It's strange that certain posters want USNEWS to be less like D&D and more like CSPAM - there's already CSPAM, so USNEWS should just be moved there." We do not want that
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Oct 27, 2021 21:02
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If USNews is not part of D&D and is not subject to decisions about the direction of D&D's culture, perhaps it should be removed from D&D.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:04
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30.5 Days posted:I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. 30.5 Days posted:And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters?
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Oct 27, 2021 21:05
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30.5 Days posted:Because we had a huge-rear end QCS thread where one of the topics of discussion was the tension between debate and discussion, and then it was closed and a few days later jeffrey made a post where he said "ok the future of D&D is effortposting and debate" and now everyone's saying "no you don't get it, it's the same aimless sludge it always has been" USNews is a single thread, with a different set of rules specifically for that thread. It's fairly common on most forums. Are you new to the SA forums? Your reg date suggests you've been around long enough to know this.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:05
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Deteriorata posted:USNews is a single thread, with a different set of rules specifically for that thread. It's fairly common on most forums. Are you new to the SA forums? Your reg date suggests you've been around long enough to know this. D&D bring this rude about everything is also something that sucks about D&D.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:06
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I really really don't understand some people's burning desire to kill USPol
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Oct 27, 2021 21:07
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Has anyone suggested that posters have to commit to either USPOL or CSPAM and are allowed only to post in one or the other? Seems like it would resolve a lot of issues. There are a lot of ways to implement this, some woudl require more technical solutions but what I envision would be a more casual approach. Whenever an individual is identified as participating in a lot of heated arguments it would take no effort to see if they also post a lot in the other venue and then slap a gang-tag on them to certify it. You'd probably have to run IP lookups every once in awhile to root out the truly pathological individuals who just can't help themselves. But other than that.... uhh, yeah, anyway, I'm sure this is a dumb idea but it also seems like the best idea. So someone just tell me why this is dumb.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:07
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Chat threads in games is still subject to the rules and expectations of the games forum. It's also true in CSPAM and most of the recent anger at cspam has been a lot of people discovering very suddenly that some massive megathread was operating on a different, completely unacceptable, set of rules. The idea that D&D is going to have big change in posting style that is not going to apply to a single chat thread is really weird, especially since most of the forum's activity is in that chat thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:07
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I like to post in CSPAM and USnews/USpol and would like to be able to continue posting in both places, as well as other threads in D&D. Thank you for your consideration.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:08
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Does D&D even have problems outside of the "chat thread" except for two narrow subjects that don't come up nearly as often as they've been mentioned in this thread? (one of which, the "genocide" question, I think has been dealt with in this thread in a way that most people seem to find agreeable)
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Oct 27, 2021 21:08
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I really really don't understand some people's burning desire to kill USPol Fair enough, but how does the post your favorite band names thread comport with the stated mission of this subforum? Does that even qualify as discussion? Would it be possible to make up epic band names for democrats without getting a probation? How about if one of the suggested names for the epic Republican band was Let’s Go Brandon? I don’t think you could get away with it. It’s weird that those dunking sessions are never considered derailing. That’s why people have this bizarre idea that it’s a hugbox.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:08
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30.5 Days posted:Chat threads in games is still subject to the rules and expectations of the games forum. It's also true in CSPAM and most of the recent anger at cspam has been a lot of people discovering very suddenly that some massive megathread was operating on a different, completely unacceptable, set of rules. But again, this isn't weird in the least. SA has had threads like that for years.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:09
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Mellow Seas posted:Does D&D even have problems outside of the "chat thread" except for two narrow subjects that don't come up nearly as often as they've been mentioned in this thread? Thats an interesting question. This would seem to imply that jeffrey issued an important pronouncement that only applies to the parts of this forum that have zero issues, which definitely seems like a massive mistake.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:09
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mawarannahr posted:Fair enough, but how does the post your favorite band names thread comport with the stated mission of this subforum? Does that even qualify as discussion? Would it be possible to make up epic band names for democrats without getting a probation? How about if one of the suggested names for the epic Republican band was Let’s Go Brandon? I don’t think you could get away with it. It’s weird that those dunking sessions are never considered derailing. That’s why people have this bizarre idea that it’s a hugbox. I think if you posted a tweet that was a pic of the Democratic leadership and said 'name this band' when discussion was slow you would get a similar response.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:11
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"Look we already have a mission statement, please provide feedback that helps attain that" "let people debate in the most popular thread" "no not like that"
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Oct 27, 2021 21:11
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I think if you posted a tweet that was a pic of the Democratic leadership and said 'name this band' when discussion was slow you would get a similar response. 100%. If people think "you can't say anything critical about Democrats in USNews/D&D" is true, then they don't read the forum, they read their buddies' gossip posting about the forum. They don't have useful feedback because they don't have accurate knowledge.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:12
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Ruzihm posted:"Look we already have a mission statement, please provide feedback that helps attain that" You CAN debate in the US News thread... About current events, not topics that have their own dedicated thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:12
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Monthly USNews threads, I like it. Easy, saves astral having to yell at us later. Loosening up moderation, ya sounds good, just want people to reflect that no "side" really "wins out" if that happens, not that it seems like many have implied as such among those who have mentioned it ofc. I'm not gonna be anybody's ref or arbiter, not trained to, not enough time, can't imagine I'm alone. We gotta be less aggro tho, Online doesn't matter, it's boomerville, we're drain flies in the pipes of the real recognized inhabitants of this worldwide network, the people who listen to the Qanon shaman guy and pose with that guy pretending to be RFK Jr at something called like Patriot Freedom Mega Con sponsored by the pillow guy. You wanna wage a war, chud spaces are basically unmoderated (admins there caught the roni), or maybe go hassle some red guards. Click on all the ads you see so your opinions start mattering more to The Algorithm. What is the shape of a D&D where we are less angry or calling for the refs all the time? What's it called? Does it have USPol? How do we return to Just Posting from these troubled and unsettled times. I've been watching since the start and this seems to be the path we all want to go down. Heard a lot of good stuff so far, some of which I disagree with but that don't matta. Keep it coming. Aegis posted:As far as I know the rule regarding shitposting in here has always been that you might not get punished if the mods think your post was funny, but you are taking your your ability to post for the next few hours into your own hands--so your zinger better be worth it. This is one of the longstanding rules of the forums in general, in fact. Like, a bedrock one. It's a comedy forum.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:14
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Mellow Seas posted:Does D&D even have problems outside of the "chat thread" except for two narrow subjects that don't come up nearly as often as they've been mentioned in this thread? (one of which, the "genocide" question, I think has been dealt with in this thread in a way that most people seem to find agreeable) fart made us a chart of mod actions by thread (for year 2021 only). if we treat usnews as a successor to uspol and group them, they account for easily the largest share of mod actions across any thread. Epic High Five posted:What is the shape of a D&D where we are less angry or calling for the refs all the time? What's it called? Datasets and Diagrams, apparently. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:17
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Mellow Seas posted:100%. Why do you think this? You can trivially check to see if what you say is true and you’d find you’re making poo poo up. What reason is there to take you seriously when you do that? Is it contributing to this thread at all?
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Oct 27, 2021 21:17
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mawarannahr posted:Why do you think this? You can trivially check to see if what you say is true and you’d find you’re making poo poo up. What reason is there to take you seriously when you do that? Is it contributing to this thread at all? Are you asserting that you can't say critical things about Democrats in USNews or D&D in general? Or just saying that those people do read D&D, they've just reached a wildly inaccurate conclusion about it somehow? Like, it's a complete lie and it's been repeated over and over in the last thread and this one. What is your issue with the way I am attempting to correct it? e: Like, honestly, look at your posting and your rap sheet and my posting and my rap sheet. We are about as perfect as a case study as you can have that mods don't punish criticism of Democrats and do attempt to punish posting like a dick. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:22
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posts are stored in the usnews
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Oct 27, 2021 21:24
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fool of sound posted:You have been probated one time ever in D&D that I can tell, by exmarx, and I just scrolled through your post history here and it's all completely uncontroversial USPol/Trump/Right Wing media white noise and some QUILTBAG posting up until Benghazi 2 got banned, and you haven't participated in D&D basically at all since then. I post in this forum far, far, far too much and I agree wholeheartedly with both these poster's sentiments The Shortest Path posted:And most of us aren't super interested in the trust or respect or opinions of mods that they we think should be demodded, yet here we are forced to entertain your whims if we want this place to be able to have a functional politics discussion forum in the near future. Jimong5 posted:Welp, there's your answer folks, nothing wrong here, just accept that D&D is the hugbox forum and post in C-SPAM. e: for my own criticisms, the fact that are unable to not take feedback personal is yet another sign that you are unsuited to being a moderator here. It would be the best thing for both the forum and for yourself to step down as a moderator. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:25
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