|
Lib and let die posted:Datasets and Diagrams, apparently. This would probably make it too popular, imho. There's a lot of sickos and freaks on these forums who have big folders of flashy infographics and Nate Silver sized hulking and wheezing spreadsheets of like, tank stats or CK2 tactics. I've heard there's even some threads that worship the concept of Number. Not fair to the other forums.
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:Are you asserting that you can't say critical things about Democrats in USNews or D&D in general? Or just saying that those people do read D&D, they've just reached a wildly inaccurate conclusion about it somehow? You’re asserting that the people complaining don’t read USNews at all and don’t understand it because of that. It’s not helpful. Why are you repeating your correction and why would someone take your correction seriously when it’s been established you don’t read things? The instinct to correct wrongthink is not helpful to a thread soliciting feedback, IMO, and it’s emblematic of the problems of this subforum.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
Epinephrine posted:TBF, as someone who suffers from some data science poisoning, I read what GJB posted as a thank you. yeah I didnt mean for that to be as abrasive as it was, whoops sorry fart guy, I appreciate the graphs
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:This would probably make it too popular, imho. There's a lot of sickos and freaks on these forums who have big folders of flashy infographics and Nate Silver sized hulking and wheezing spreadsheets of like, tank stats or CK2 tactics. I've heard there's even some threads that worship the concept of Number. Not fair to the other forums. please do not dox me i try my best to keep that perversion limited to the game forums
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:27
|
|
|
The graphs are good yeah, more of those. Would like to reiterate that I was disappointed to hear that all those probe reasons got pulled but we didn't get a word cloud, which is the standard bearer of reliability in data science as I understand it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:27
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:The feedback thread is now about who's justified to provide feedback and was lead there entirely by a mod. That is classic stonewalling techniques. Hello, yes I would like to talk about forums standing here in this forums court:  Harold Fjord posted:I've been posting in D&D since l like, 2005 or something insane. The people who don't post in D&D as much anymore but used to are right. The people who have spent years saying "the forum is bad because we haven't banned all the correct people for it to be good yet" are wrong. I won't name or quote any in particular since the rules in this thread are unusual and I don't want to gently caress it up. Same, I dunno I just want my old posting grounds to be happy. Back then I thought it was where smart posters posted, but now I see it as a lib hug box, it was magical in my 20s when I was on the McKinsey track, but now that I've fallen into weed welfare house husbandry CSPAM is more my speed. It's ok to be a lib hug box. There should be hugboxes for everyone. Ruzihm posted:"It's strange that certain posters want USNEWS to be less like D&D and more like CSPAM - there's already CSPAM, so USNEWS should just be moved there." No, CSPAM already has custody of the TRMUP thread. They cannot live in the same house. That would violate posting balance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:The instinct to correct wrongthink is not helpful to a thread soliciting feedback, IMO, and it’s emblematic of the problems of this subforum. It's not "wrongthink", it's just wrong. They are wrong. They are saying something factually incorrect. Saying "wrongthink" turns it into some kind of ideological struggle when it's actually just about what I see, with my eyes - a ton of criticism of Democrats in D&D, that is not (and - do I even have to say this? - shouldn't be) given probations. e: Relevant excerpt from the post below this one: Main Paineframe posted:If polls, past events, studies, or investigations don't line up with an assertion someone made based on their gut feeling and broad ideological stance, then as far as they're concerned, it's the gut feeling that's right and all of the hard evidence that's wrong. Hell, sometimes someone will make a claim that they themselves know isn't true - but they want it to be true, and they don't personally care about the ways in which it's verifiably not true, and according to them that's good enough. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Oct 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
30.5 Days posted:Because ultimately serious debate has to get to the bottom of why people believe what they do. There is a difference in belief between two posters and even if we accept beforehand that their views are both alike in dignity, the difference comes from various assumptions and short cuts in reasoning and being misinformed or just confused or just miscommunication. You can't have a serious debate where these things aren't on the table to be discussed. So you have to be okay with either friction or homogeny. Or you could just not dig too deep into things and keep discussion light. If you refuse to accept any of these options then the thread will whip back and forth between them. There are a lot of people here who, if you made them choose, they'd choose homogeny and I think that's just fine. The moderators insist on not deciding that they're going to have a space with none of the above, despite the fact that they have never been able to accomplish this, ever. The non-uspol threads get by because they are willing to make a loving decision, even if only subconsciously. Ultimately, serious debate would require people to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of verifiable facts and evidence that contradict their stance. If two people have differing stances on what's true, then they should be able to point to solid evidence supporting their claim, and people can discuss the quality of the evidence. As long as there are people in the forum that literally don't believe in evidence that contradicts their gut feeling, getting anywhere with debate is kind of pointless. The core problem isn't the existence of differing beliefs, the core problem is that there are too many people who are straight-up post-fact. If polls, past events, studies, or investigations don't line up with an assertion someone made based on their gut feeling and broad ideological stance, then as far as they're concerned, it's the gut feeling that's right and all of the hard evidence that's wrong. Hell, sometimes someone will make a claim that they themselves know isn't true - but they want it to be true, and they don't personally care about the ways in which it's verifiably not true, and according to them that's good enough. People will post links to sources that say the exact opposite of what they're arguing, and no one even realizes it half the time because most of D&D just relies on the clickbait tweet and doesn't actually click through to see what the original source said. I agree that most of D&D's population don't want to debate anymore. This is because people dislike confronting the idea that anything could be more real than the little reality that exists in their head. These days, if someone's presented with evidence contradicting their claim, then they don't read the opposing evidence to find points to debunk, and they don't go find their own evidence to counter it either. Instead, they just accuse the person of being biased and start hurling insults. Epic High Five posted:We gotta be less aggro tho, Online doesn't matter, it's boomerville, we're drain flies in the pipes of the real recognized inhabitants of this worldwide network, the people who listen to the Qanon shaman guy and pose with that guy pretending to be RFK Jr at something called like Patriot Freedom Mega Con sponsored by the pillow guy. You wanna wage a war, chud spaces are basically unmoderated (admins there caught the roni), or maybe go hassle some red guards. Click on all the ads you see so your opinions start mattering more to The Algorithm. We don't. Politics discourse as a whole has been too thoroughly Twitter-poisoned. And that's not just a matter of Twitter embeds being common, it's the general fact that people are browsing Twitter all day because that's where politics news and discussion comes from these days. The most politics-addicted among us are spending their day submerged in the magic algorithm that's literally designed to find out what makes them maddest and only show them that stuff. And then they curate that for only the most clickbaity and infuriating stuff, which they repost over to SA for people who use this site as their primary politics news source. Even if we banned direct Twitter embeds, the general impact of social media on political discourse still has quite the effect all on its own. Chuds aren't the only people being convinced by social media that their posting is a crucial front in the war for the future of America.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
redneck nazgul posted:I wonder if there was some big event a while back that made it apparent to the entire forums that the moderation of D&D was Bad, and maybe that's why a bunch of people just stopped posting in the forum entirely. This is the epitome of a post that has no place in D&D. Trying to use cryptic in-group references to vaguely insinuate something sinister about somebody, but without the stones to just make a point, because the moment you say something tangible someone has the chance to disagree with you or hold you to it. Pathetic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:We don't. Politics discourse as a whole has been too thoroughly Twitter-poisoned. And that's not just a matter of Twitter embeds being common, it's the general fact that people are browsing Twitter all day because that's where politics news and discussion comes from these days. The most politics-addicted among us are spending their day submerged in the magic algorithm that's literally designed to find out what makes them maddest and only show them that stuff. And then they curate that for only the most clickbaity and infuriating stuff, which they repost over to SA for people who use this site as their primary politics news source. Even if we banned direct Twitter embeds, the general impact of social media on political discourse still has quite the effect all on its own. Chuds aren't the only people being convinced by social media that their posting is a crucial front in the war for the future of America. We don't what, gotta be less aggro? That's sort of against one of the deeper currents of this thread so far. I agree with you that Twitter is a pit and social media is killing us. It ain't just chuds, it ain't just libs, it's everybody. I hope I had come across that I'm firmly anti-Twitter and what it's done to people's Brains. It's turned us all into journalists, a most terrible fate. The only solution is to disengage. If your feedback is that you don't think it can be fixed then because we're all too brainfucked then okay, yeah I get that. I'll keep it in mind, you don't make a bad argument or anything I just don't know how to engage with it in the goal of trying to improve all of This
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:36
|
|
|
anyway it probably deserves a real effortpost but I am very interested in How Do You Solve A Problem Like Usnews and every solution we've tried so far hasn't worked I had high hopes for "try and get people to split off discussion into separate threads" and it did occasionally generate good side threads, but it didn't un-usnews usnews and here we are
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:40
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:What is the shape of a D&D where we are less angry or calling for the refs all the time? What's it called? Consensus and Capybaras.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:42
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:anyway it probably deserves a real effortpost but I am very interested in How Do You Solve A Problem Like Usnews and every solution we've tried so far hasn't worked First step is no longer recruiting mods from it and demodding those from it. CSPAM learned that the hard way from the turrp thread.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:44
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:We don't what, gotta be less aggro? That's sort of against one of the deeper currents of this thread so far. I agree with you that Twitter is a pit and social media is killing us. It ain't just chuds, it ain't just libs, it's everybody. I hope I had come across that I'm firmly anti-Twitter and what it's done to people's Brains. It's turned us all into journalists, a most terrible fate. The only solution is to disengage. Yeah, sorry, I was referring to "how do we go back to the days of Just Posting". I think that social media, and its intentional policy of amplifying the worst clickbait and the most infuriating posts, has fundamentally changed American political discourse and the way people approach politics, all across the political spectrum. It's influenced the old news media, too. Between that and the rise of beloved political idols like Hillary Clinton  , aggro is now king. People are far more emotionally invested than before, because so much of popular politics is now being provided by more openly-biased outlets and concentrated by a few passes through through the Twitter rage tube.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Ultimately, serious debate would require people to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of verifiable facts and evidence that contradict their stance. If two people have differing stances on what's true, then they should be able to point to solid evidence supporting their claim, and people can discuss the quality of the evidence.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:We don't. Politics discourse as a whole has been too thoroughly Twitter-poisoned. And that's not just a matter of Twitter embeds being common, it's the general fact that people are browsing Twitter all day because that's where politics news and discussion comes from these days. The most politics-addicted among us are spending their day submerged in the magic algorithm that's literally designed to find out what makes them maddest and only show them that stuff. And then they curate that for only the most clickbaity and infuriating stuff, which they repost over to SA for people who use this site as their primary politics news source. Even if we banned direct Twitter embeds, the general impact of social media on political discourse still has quite the effect all on its own. Chuds aren't the only people being convinced by social media that their posting is a crucial front in the war for the future of America. Politics is a very personal matter and therefore very controversial and it always has been. Politics affects everyone so everyone is gonna have an opinion about it and if you think you're getting a raw deal you're going to be angry about it. People are pissed because they feel that the government has abandoned them not because there's a computer wizard in California casting antipathy. That's a 9th level spell, bro. The component cost alone would bankrupt them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, sorry, I was referring to "how do we go back to the days of Just Posting". I think that social media, and its intentional policy of amplifying the worst clickbait and the most infuriating posts, has fundamentally changed American political discourse and the way people approach politics, all across the political spectrum. It's influenced the old news media, too. Between that and the rise of beloved political idols like Hillary Clinton Oh that yeah, I mean crossing the same river twice tho ya know? There's no going back to pre-Trump but that's not the goal, we've gotta figure something out now, shaped by our present material circumstances. Some German guy talked about it I think. I think there's enough here to the effect of "oh but this isn't a problem in CSPAM or GBS or wherever else" is something. They aren't any more inoculated from the poisonous brew that is the wider internet after all, but there's something there that is happening. What is it, how do we make it happen here. I mean hell the UK threads seem to do just fine and their press and internet is even dumber and more psychotic than it is in the US (just my opinion)
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:Politics is a very personal matter and therefore very controversial and it always has been. Politics affects everyone so everyone is gonna have an opinion about it and if you think you're getting a raw deal you're going to be angry about it. People are pissed because they feel that the government has abandoned them not because there's a computer wizard in California casting antipathy. That's a 9th level spell, bro. The component cost alone would bankrupt them. Again though, all evidence points to this being a problem that is fairly particular to USNews. I don't think it's a universal truism that two people with somewhat different politics (say a social democrat and a democratic socialist) are fundamentally incapable of productive discussion. Like it feels like I'm intentionally making a people's front of judea joke typing that sentence.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:53
|
|
|
StratGoatCom posted:First step is no longer recruiting mods from it and demodding those from it. CSPAM learned that the hard way from the turrp thread. your grudges aside, we've been trying to recruit mods from outside the us and/or the us threads (and/or aren't cismale, for that matter) and met with little success turns out the pool of people who both would accept modship and wouldn't be obviously terrible isn't infinite
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:anyway it probably deserves a real effortpost but I am very interested in How Do You Solve A Problem Like Usnews and every solution we've tried so far hasn't worked Minimize drive-by shitposting by 1) banning Twitters and 2) requiring all links to include a summary of the content so people can know what it is before they click it. Otherwise, clarify what you want the thread to be and enforce it. There's always going to be aggro shitheads who will be mad that they can't be aggro shitheads in D&D - you're never going to appease them so stop trying to. Whether thread/forum bans are the way to go or long-term probes + bans, you'll have to decide. They're the only tools you have to enforce order so use them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:"Look we already have a mission statement, please provide feedback that helps attain that" This is exactly the sort of post that causes problems in USNews. Debate by means of the most absurd reduction of your opponents position you think you can make a tedious fishmech-esq stand about not technically being a lie. This is usually followed by a debate about the dictionary definitions of words.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:56
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:anyway it probably deserves a real effortpost but I am very interested in How Do You Solve A Problem Like Usnews and every solution we've tried so far hasn't worked *Not saying the paradigm matches what every critic wants either, just to be clear.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:57
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Minimize drive-by shitposting by 1) banning Twitters and 2) requiring all links to include a summary of the content so people can know what it is before they click it. Legitimately when dnd required the article to be posted it was better, things can be hidden by paywalls or twitter being garbage, and it's a known issue that some accounts (social media accounts not posters) are just used to amplify fake or obvious outrage poo poo for views. Legitimately by posting the article or statement we actually get a chance to discuss review and see it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 21:57
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:Debate by means of the most absurd reduction of your opponents position you think you can make a tedious fishmech-esq stand about not technically being a lie [is exactly the sort of post that causes problems in USNews]. I agree, but apparently we are in the minority about what a helpful argument is. Ruzihm posted:I think it's unhelpful (and, frankly, counterproductive) to the discussion to characterize feedback like this Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:01
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:anyway it probably deserves a real effortpost but I am very interested in How Do You Solve A Problem Like Usnews and every solution we've tried so far hasn't worked Start with, and be honest here, what you think the biggest problem with Usnews is. Then ask yourself why that is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:04
|
|
|
you'd be better off creating a dem thread and a gop thread and not thunderdoming everyone into usnews. might end up dogshit like polliwonks last year, might not. anything other than usnews.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:05
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:This is exactly the sort of post that causes problems in USNews. Debate by means of the most absurd reduction of your opponents position you think you can make a tedious fishmech-esq stand about not technically being a lie. I don't know that anybody disagrees with you, I think what we're trying and seemingly failing to drive home is that Jeffrey's decision about the direction of D&D is completely orthogonal to what anybody wants and people are squaring that circle by just assuming that it doesn't apply to the actual part of the subforum that has issues, despite him saying nothing to that effect, and the very idea of him issuing a pronouncement that only applies to the parts of D&D that are fine doesn't make any sense.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:07
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:I agree, but apparently we are in the minority about what a helpful argument is. And that post was an absurd reduction of what I said. My post was that "if D&Ds mission statement is to foster respectful, thoughtful discussion than 'allowing more shitposting' is counter to the mission statement and isn't really productive or useful feedback". I outlined that in a post that made it super clear that I'm not specifically reducing that to "be like CSPAM" and specifically that "be like CSPAM" can be many things, and whether the feedback is useful depends on what you're getting at: quote:I think it depends what you mean by "like CSPAM".
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Minimize drive-by shitposting by 1) banning Twitters and 2) requiring all links to include a summary of the content so people can know what it is before they click it. If we're not going as far as banning Twitter, I'd reiterate an earlier suggestion I've made in QCS: You're responsible for your twitter links. That means the content in the twitter is treated like yours, so if it's deleted you can get dinged for a post with no content, if it's misrepresenting an article (this includes headlines of the article itself being misrepresentative) then you get dinged for that, and if it's some racist/sexist/ableist poo poo you're on the hook for that too. Unless of course you take the time to actually address all those possible issues, that is, laying out why you're linking that tweet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Pamela Springstein posted:you'd be better off creating a dem thread and a gop thread and not thunderdoming everyone into usnews. might end up dogshit like polliwonks last year, might not. anything other than usnews. The problem is there aren't really a lot of "support moderate dems no matter what" posters. There's various levels of "dems bad" from what I've seen, from "biden kinda sucks sometimes but he's better than the alternative", to the dems being an evil institution and containing no redeemable qualities whatsoever. I don't think there's a clear line where you can divide those into 2 groups. Is there a single person in D&D and C-SPAM that is actually a GOP supporter? enki42 fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Oct 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:11
|
|
|
enki42 posted:And that post was an absurd reduction of what I said. I honestly didn't read your post - I was replying to this Thorn Wishes Talon posted:the feedback from CSPAM regulars has been taking the form of "why can't D&D be more like CSPAM"... for the most part, unmoderated? same as my previous post. i probably should have included the quote again Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Oct 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:11
|
|
|
I can't figure out why everyone's response to that jeffreypost is "well surely it doesn't apply to ME" except that this is roughly a form letter version of what gets said at the end of every D&D feedback period ("more debate! more discussion! effort posts!") and everybody knows by now to just blow it off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:12
|
|
|
30.5 Days posted:I can't figure out why everyone's response to that jeffreypost is "well surely it doesn't apply to ME" except that this is roughly a form letter version of what gets said at the end of every D&D feedback period ("more debate! more discussion! effort posts!") and everybody knows by now to just blow it off. It's because you're deliberately misreading Jeff's post as being wholly supportive of your argument and it isn't. And ignoring the entire other half of the point it makes. A focus on debate doesn't mean that every thread is debate or discussion doesn't come into it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:It's because you're deliberately misreading Jeff's post as being wholly supportive of your argument and it isn't. And ignoring the entire other half of the point it makes. A focus on debate doesn't mean that every thread is debate or discussion doesn't come into it. If your solution to "the problem with D&D" is "a focus on debate", then I think it's safe to say that you are prescribing a focus on debate in the parts of D&D that have problems.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:16
|
|
|
It's going to be funny when Jeff makes another post and it turns out you're both reading the admin tea leaves wrong because that's the cycle this always takes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:20
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:It's going to be funny when Jeff makes another post and it turns out you're both reading the admin tea leaves wrong because that's the cycle this always takes. It wouldn't surprise me if he came back out and said "actually when I said a focus on debate, I meant on the parts of the subforum that already focus on debate, I was not recommending any changes whatsoever" because his post was really dumb and a bad prescription for what should happen in D&D, and not based on really anything at all that I can fathom. But the fact that it was just the same contextless nonsense that we always get in the feedback cycle is also kind of my point. e: and the fact that everyone in this conversation just kind of pretended it didn't happen because they subconsciously knew that is also my point
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:23
|
|
|
Nothing really needs to happen to D&D except for people to stop loving whining about D&D and about getting probed for being lovely in D&D.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
People don't actually want a current affairs thread where debate isn't allowed. They say they do, they think they do, but when they get it they don't want to post there. I know because we have one, it had a few posts a week and died sometime last year. It was never closed, you could necro it right now, or reboot it if you don't want PPJ as the OP. Nobody wants a curated debate-free RSS feed from a forum thread, if we wanted that we could just put a url in a sticky and anyone who wanted to could follow it on their own. They come here because they want to debate and discuss politics, it's just that some people think that having to see opinions outside of a certain ideological range is "trolling", so they don't want to see those opinions, but they don't want people openly banned for disagreeing with them because they also want to believe that they arrived at their beliefs through rational analysis that will always win out in the free marketplace of ideas, so they think the reason they get angry in USPol is all the tedious debate obscuring the news, and if only we had a pure news thread without the debate then it would be so much nicer. But we had that, created in response to a previous feedback thread, and it was neglected and abandoned because just reading the news together is no fun if you can't add your commentary, Monday-morning quarterback the day's happenings, speculate about where things will go, defend the team when bad news breaks, dunk on Republicans, etc
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:33
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:fart made us a chart of mod actions by thread (for year 2021 only). if we treat usnews as a successor to uspol and group them, they account for easily the largest share of mod actions across any thread. I think it really got glossed over how the data also seemed to show that neither thread had an outlandish level of mod actions relative to its post count, they were just a lot busier than the threads that generated disproportionate mod actions. That and probes in USpol/USnews tended to be shorter than anything other than Cursed Images where it's almost totally sixers for lacking an image. I mean, there's room for arguing that the modding is unfair or done for the wrong reasons in USpol, but the idea that it's some unique locus of iron fisted modding in general seems pretty well cored at this point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
The crux of my argument has been that it is not over moderation but wrongly applied moderation. People who make assholish posts but disguise it in thousands of words of tedious garbage get off scott free but people who get that directed at them several times clap back with something much less long and tedious, and only the latter gets punished. This happens several times and the poster gets ramped and increasingly frustrated and once that's in their history everything they say becomes instantly dismissed as being from an "aggro poster" until they either stop posting on their own or get forumbanned. The culture is insanely toxic and bad and the people who don't see it are often part of the problem. EDIT: Especially when Handsome Ralph and to a lesser extent CommieGIR are just as bad as some of the "aggro posters" but without having to be riled up into it first. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Oct 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2021 22:46
|
|
