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FlamingLiberal posted:He doesn't even have sex....it's just a couple of kisses, which is even funnier So basically they got introduced to culture, Macross-style, and decided they didn't want to kill everyone in non-fluidic space.
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Oct 27, 2021 06:33
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nine-gear crow posted:The Hirogen were a cool concept, just undercooked like all things Voyager. I wish they kept to the premise they started with in Hunters where the Hirogen looked like they were all 8 foot tall monsters who could just pick you up and toss your rear end clear across a room. And then they were just normal, slightly tall dudes depending on the guest actor for the rest of the show Man, remember that time Voyager selfishly destroyed one of their major achievements in form of the relay net, a cultural artifact a hundred thousand years old spanning a dozen times as far as the Federation had ever stretched, probably the work of tens of thousands of years to build and which probably held their whole nomadic culture together? And then Voyager was like 'excuse me just gonna use this even after you say no WHOOPS blew up the whole net MOVING ON' MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 09:16
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The Voyager writers don't remember that and neither should you.
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Oct 27, 2021 09:29
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janeway worked hard to deserve that admiralship
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Oct 27, 2021 09:53
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8one6 posted:The Voyager writers don't remember that and neither should you. i'm sorry are you asking people here not to remember minutiae about Star Trek?
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Oct 27, 2021 09:56
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Why can't the borg adapt by using some goddamn diplomacy, after all the times they got stung, delayed, or straight-up ate poo poo while flinging cubes around in the alpha and delta quadrants? Imagine if they just played nice- they would get themselves on board every starfleet vessel within a decade.
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Oct 27, 2021 10:16
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MikeJF posted:Man, remember that time Voyager selfishly destroyed one of their major achievements in form of the relay net, a cultural artifact a hundred thousand years old spanning a dozen times as far as the Federation had ever stretched, probably the work of tens of thousands of years to build and which probably held their whole nomadic culture together? And then Voyager was like 'excuse me just gonna use this even after you say no WHOOPS blew up the whole net MOVING ON'
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Oct 27, 2021 12:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:I don’t believe that relay was built by the Hirogen It’s never made explicitly clear in the show but the encyclopedia confirms it is Hirogen built
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Oct 27, 2021 12:51
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Literally Lewis Hamilton posted:It’s never made explicitly clear in the show but the encyclopedia confirms it is Hirogen built Doesn't the leader of the Hirogen in the holodeck two parter lament that their civilisation built that stuff long in the past and now can't do it anymore?
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Oct 27, 2021 13:06
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Alchenar posted:Doesn't the leader of the Hirogen in the holodeck two parter lament that their civilisation built that stuff long in the past and now can't do it anymore?
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Oct 27, 2021 14:34
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Ofaloaf posted:Why can't the borg adapt by using some goddamn diplomacy, after all the times they got stung, delayed, or straight-up ate poo poo while flinging cubes around in the alpha and delta quadrants? Imagine if they just played nice- they would get themselves on board every starfleet vessel within a decade. Diplomacy is irrelevant. Goddamning is futile. You will be assimilated.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:22
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Alchenar posted:Doesn't the leader of the Hirogen in the holodeck two parter lament that their civilisation built that stuff long in the past and now can't do it anymore? The Hirogen are interesting because they're the ultimate "Race of Hats" in Star Trek but they know it and its at least talked about how that's really not sustainable as a culture (the reason that guy's on Voyager is because he knows that the Hirogen will either run out of prey or try and hunt something strong enough to fight back and wants to try using holographic hunts instead)
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Oct 27, 2021 17:06
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MikeJF posted:Man, remember that time Voyager selfishly destroyed one of their major achievements in form of the relay net, a cultural artifact a hundred thousand years old spanning a dozen times as far as the Federation had ever stretched, probably the work of tens of thousands of years to build and which probably held their whole nomadic culture together? And then Voyager was like 'excuse me just gonna use this even after you say no WHOOPS blew up the whole net MOVING ON' Blowing up the relay network was also a dumb as gently caress cowardly reset button because it would have allowed for some more serialized plot momentum with more regular contact with Starfleet, and they could have balanced it out by having the risk of using the network meaning the Hirogen would know exactly where they are because they practically send off a giant sonar ping every time they use it. You know, dramatic tension?
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Oct 27, 2021 17:45
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nine-gear crow posted:You know, dramatic tension?
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Oct 27, 2021 17:48
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FlamingLiberal posted:Sir, that’s illegal DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO! 
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Oct 27, 2021 17:49
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The Hirogen were rad. Voyager had a few good hits with aliens but never followed up. Dropping the Vidiians was unfortunate but explainable since they kept moving (though why the Kazon kept showing up is a mystery), but the Hirogen were so spread out they could've been a recurring thing the rest of the series.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:05
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I think it would be funny if it turned out the Kazon had some secret cosmic back alley they knew about and that's how they keep showing up. These places seemingly disconnected by hundreds of light years are actually all just adjacent to Kazon Pass
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Oct 27, 2021 18:14
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Was thinking today that after Generations, it seemed like every Trek novel became about the Borg invading again or the Dominion invading again or someone else invading and Picard/Ezri/Riker/Clone-Kirk/etc had to all band together to stop it. But before then there was the era of Pocket Books where the stakes were usually lower and they felt like long and maybe over-done 2 part episodes. That was a cool era.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:16
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I don't recall the Kazon hardly showing up at all past the season 3 opener.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:22
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Ofaloaf posted:Why can't the borg adapt by using some goddamn diplomacy, after all the times they got stung, delayed, or straight-up ate poo poo while flinging cubes around in the alpha and delta quadrants? Imagine if they just played nice- they would get themselves on board every starfleet vessel within a decade. It's really baffling. They've invoked the borg a thousand times but they've still barely delved into them conceptually of philosophically at all. The borg themselves have absorbed plenty of humans, had weird queen-human interactions, like, they clearly understand the strength of federation and humanity's resolve on some level by now. Surely they also have extensive knowledge of many cultures in the galaxy and know how easily all sorts of people will accept really horrifying things if you put even the most minimal sugar-coating efforts. Not to mention, the benefits of joining the Borg are incredible but they utterly fail to communicate that at every opportunity. It's like trying to collect taxes from someone who doesn't know about them by saying "we are taking some of your money, you cannot resist, we will use the money, goodbye." Probably easier collecting taxes if you make the taxpayers aware of like, roads and civil services and stings the taxes pay for. Borg play their cards right, people will come to them and it'll be on the Borg to vet candidates to keep up the collective quality.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:28
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Khanstant posted:It's like trying to collect taxes from someone who doesn't know about them by saying "we are taking some of your money, you cannot resist, we will use the money, goodbye." Hey, that's how Republicans see taxes.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:34
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Ofaloaf posted:Why can't the borg adapt by using some goddamn diplomacy, after all the times they got stung, delayed, or straight-up ate poo poo while flinging cubes around in the alpha and delta quadrants? Imagine if they just played nice- they would get themselves on board every starfleet vessel within a decade. Bold of you to assume that the collective consciousness is actually smart or adept at things other than technology. The whole brutalism of the cube seems to imply a whole lack of consideration for even the barest of aesthetics or anything that would begin to be part of considering what they seem like from the outside. They don't really seem to really understand or respect forms of life outside of the collective, and they are vaguely offended by resistance or continued separation. It's like those times Starfleet discovers that the rocks they're mining were actually sentient beings, except instead of backing off, the Borg would just get a bigger drill. Some things are lost in the process of assimilation and the Borg become less than the sum of their parts. I can't really say for sure because maybe the original Borg species was just the most artless and antisocial creatures that ever lived, but it sure doesn't seem like they have everything that you would get from a massive collection of people, especially the types of people that we know have been assimilated by the Borg. Which I think is pretty realistic for organizational systems and technologies, although there is a tendency for a lot of sci-fi writers and fans to elide that sort of thing in the name of the purity of exploring philosophy or concepts without the limits of a physical or social world.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:15
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That's actually a really good point. Why bother with the explanations though, then? There is no reason to inform the assimilatees of their fate, why not just go about assimilating them instead of going "resistance is futile"? And Locutus just makes it worse, but that's the entire evolution of the Borg in Trek, the concept just gets more and more watered down and relatable.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:08
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Clearly assimilating humans just made the Borg dumber.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:11
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The Borg never again reached the creepy heights of Q Who. Everything after got more blah.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:17
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I remember seeing some offhand comment about TNG's Risa stuff being transphobic. Is this something I should be worrying about for Captain's Holiday?
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Oct 27, 2021 21:41
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I don't remember anything transphobic so if it'd there its probably some minor background thing and not something in your face
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Oct 27, 2021 21:50
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BonHair posted:That's actually a really good point. Why bother with the explanations though, then? There is no reason to inform the assimilatees of their fate, why not just go about assimilating them instead of going "resistance is futile"? And Locutus just makes it worse, but that's the entire evolution of the Borg in Trek, the concept just gets more and more watered down and relatable. Sometimes it can work. It'll at least get some kind of response out of the kind of intelligent beings that they're interested in. Maybe once in a while people will be convinced to capitulate, but for the most part it seems like a vestigial system before the Borg was a continuous collective. They sure don't do much listening for responses after they talk. When they run into this whole weird new interstellar civilization that was bigger than anything they assimilated in the past, and on top of their technological distinctiveness, they seem to be into talking and talking, might as well assimilate one of their talkers to see if that'll do any good, but the collective exerting itself through Picard's brain and larynx is clumsy and uncoordinated, and it sure doesn't seem interested in trying to empathize with its targets, which means not using many of the skills Picard has in communication.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:54
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Best of Both Worlds presented assimilation of individuals as a rare event. Picard was supposed to facilitate the submission of the federation after their military defeat, because the borg couldn't just jab people and have another borg ten minutes later. It was a laborious process involving a lot of surgery.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:56
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Arivia posted:I remember seeing some offhand comment about TNG's Risa stuff being transphobic. Is this something I should be worrying about for Captain's Holiday? That was probably referring to an Enterprise episode that's also set on Risa: two characters are seduced by beautiful women who turn out to be (male) aliens in disguise who just want to rob them. Nothing like that happens in Captain's Holiday.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:43
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Powered Descent posted:That was probably referring to an Enterprise episode that's also set on Risa: two characters are seduced by beautiful women who turn out to be (male) aliens in disguise who just want to rob them. Nothing like that happens in Captain's Holiday. that makes sense, thank you
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Oct 27, 2021 22:48
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geez, somebody needs to assimilate the borg because they've assimilated themselves into a corner spiral. galaxy full of planets with the world's best bioengineers and scientists, like, the path to bootstrapping advancement of your species through assimilation, and getting better at doing that, is so clear if you want to be a rude alien about it. i bet the mass effect aliens wouldn't even let their poo poo work for the borg, wouldn't have came if they called. borg need a reformer, outside consultants to shake up the company or something. maybe the reason the borg keep making weird individuals is because all along it's an individual abusing a collective for their own doofy misbenefit. they definitely don't progress in a logical way given their habits
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Oct 27, 2021 23:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:Bold of you to assume that the collective consciousness is actually smart or adept at things other than technology. The whole brutalism of the cube seems to imply a whole lack of consideration for even the barest of aesthetics or anything that would begin to be part of considering what they seem like from the outside. Guinan does say that it was possible for humans to evolve to the point where peace with the Borg was something that could happen. That statement implies that the issue with the Borg isn't that they're beyond diplomacy, its that they don't see any normal species as meriting diplomacy because they're so far beneath them Its why I always liked this line from the Q Jr. episode of Voyager, when Q scolds his son in a Very Serious Voice to not provoke the Borg. Yeah, it doesn't really make much sense that the Q of all beings would have anything to fear from them, and Q himself provoked the Borg to kick off their storyline (foreshadowing indicative that they were already coming aside). But it does create an implication that there's more to them and their Collective than the corporeal threat of Big Ships and Robot Bodies, and that only a higher form of being like the Q can treat with them in the way the Federation might treat with the Romulans.
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Oct 28, 2021 00:15
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The difference in the way Q acts in Next Gen and how he acts in Voyager underscores the fact spelled out in All Good Things that Q as a trickster god was rooting for humanity in general and Picard in particular the whole time. He's just a poo poo. He didn't have to warn Starfleet about the Borg at all. Even the episode where he introduces them as a threat makes this pretty clear. He gets more serious than we'd seen him prior. But Flanderization means I fear that upon his return, most of that — like Yoda only pretending to be a weird old kook — will be cast aside in favor of "remember thing? It's just how you left it! Except it isn't, because how you left it was with more character development! But he's a poo poo like you liked before!"
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Oct 28, 2021 00:25
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Let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Picard absolutely deserves a ration of poo poo from Q for how he handled the Romulan crisis. If this season is Q taking Picard to task for resigning, then that's totally a Q thing to do, especially if there's a lesson to be taught, and especially if that lesson is "This is what happens when good people stand back in times of adversity, dumbass!" Is the Picard series capable of that? I dunno.
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Oct 28, 2021 00:40
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It would be fun if Picard had Q berate Picard for failing to live up to his potential. Very meta.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:17
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LividLiquid posted:The difference in the way Q acts in Next Gen and how he acts in Voyager underscores the fact spelled out in All Good Things that Q as a trickster god was rooting for humanity in general and Picard in particular the whole time. He's just a poo poo. I would argue that he wasn't rooting for humanity the first few times but got invested in them without intending to very quickly.
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Oct 28, 2021 03:24
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A.o.D. posted:Let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Picard absolutely deserves a ration of poo poo from Q for how he handled the Romulan crisis. If this season is Q taking Picard to task for resigning, then that's totally a Q thing to do, especially if there's a lesson to be taught, and especially if that lesson is "This is what happens when good people stand back in times of adversity, dumbass!" Picard under Chabon? No. Picard under Matalas? We'll see. LividLiquid posted:The difference in the way Q acts in Next Gen and how he acts in Voyager underscores the fact spelled out in All Good Things that Q as a trickster god was rooting for humanity in general and Picard in particular the whole time. He's just a poo poo. I've long argued that Q presents himself as humanity's judge and executioner, but in reality he's actually humanity's defense attorney, and even he doesn't realize it sometimes.
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Oct 28, 2021 03:50
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MikeJF posted:I would argue that he wasn't rooting for humanity the first few times but got invested in them without intending to very quickly. i think they call this tsundere?
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Oct 28, 2021 03:56
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punishedkissinger posted:i think they call this tsundere? Picard is the love of Q's life. Sisko just never clicked with him and ghosted him. Janeway is the one person in the universe who Q considers a legitimate friend. And he desperately wants to hang out with Mariner in order to seem hip and with it, but she's way too cool for him so he just settles for bugging her mom instead.
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Oct 28, 2021 04:04
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