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What would the future be if the CHOAM company was not constantly kramering in to complain about their profits?
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Oct 28, 2021 21:24
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[speaking in Sardaukar] The Emperor has arranged it: Carl Carolina will betray Doug. Tirranek posted:I'll take the fights being slightly floaty and perhaps one too many 'HAAAAAAEEEEE!'s on the soundtrack for how much this movie got right, for me. It sounds like there were a lot of extra scenes filmed which could go into a longer edition, and that would be nice, but I really liked it as it was. Want to see it again already. There are a lot of extras on HBO, if you have access to that. I’m hoping for a director’s cut by next spring/summer. Also, Hans Zimmer definitely went all-out on the score, some of his best work!
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Oct 28, 2021 21:29
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Alchenar posted:I'm glad they toned down the martial aptitude of the Fremen in the film. They're clearly extremely good and taking on the Sardaukar in greater numbers, but they aren't 'hey we sent some guys to kill 100 Harkonnen and lost 2 also we captured a couple of Sardaukar those guys gave us a good fight' good. Don't forget we've only seen the regular Fremen up until now. The Fedaykin death commandos are that good.
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Oct 28, 2021 21:30
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Hodgepodge posted:Why's that not great? It's not great because it's a scene that's supposed to be about the sheer cultural gulf that exists even between the Atreides who want to understand and the Fremen, Thufir is a mentat and in that exact scene they take a body off to be rendered down for water. He has all the pieces in front of him and he's just staring dumbly at the Fremen not comprehending the question he's being asked while the reader understands it instantly. It just makes him look stupid. e: and that's a conspicuous bit of DV editing down the story. All of the scenes where someone does something stupid are gone. None of the characters do anything that makes them 'deserve' their fate in the eyes of the audience.
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Oct 28, 2021 21:40
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Hodgepodge posted:Why's that not great? Because the human computer is supposed to be good at understanding things
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Oct 28, 2021 21:44
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That particular part, which I just reread last night, takes way too long highlighting what's going on, and you can really feel the author writing for a younger reader who might need a little longer to connect these dots.
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Oct 28, 2021 21:47
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I was laughing earlier thinking about how dumb it is when chani tells paul, an outsider who she has known for 3 minutes, about jamis's knife fighting weakness. Another wise denis omission
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Oct 28, 2021 21:47
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Dune IMAX is already near sold out in LA for the weekend, matinees are at 80% capacity. It'll be interesting to see the domestic box office when Eternals releases next week.
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Oct 28, 2021 21:51
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IIRC, past a certain point Thufir knew what the Fremen were asking, but a: really didn't want to think about what they were asking him to do, and b: didn't want to have to make the decision in front of his men.
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Oct 28, 2021 21:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:Because the human computer is supposed to be good at understanding things The point is that this human computer is a fish out of water. Also Herbert was writing under the illusion that nice monarchs are naive and suffer from lacking the will to be maximally evil. And also that civilization makes people weak and soft. So it may be easy for a reader not suffering from these delusion to miss that Thufir is being characterized as foolishly naive. However, the point is also that people deemed experts, no matter how impressive the results of their knowledge and training, are often complete idiots when interacting with an indigenous person because their knowledge lies outside of the specialized vocabulary and assumptions of the fields the scientist is familiar with. Normally this is masked by an extreme power disparity which means that the indigenous person cannot challenge a scientist, no matter how completely wrong the scientist is, say because they're working off first principles as if science was still taught straight out of Aristotle instead of listening and thinking. People like Kynes represent real and important exceptions, usually as overlooked as s/he is outside of their disciplines. So this is being extremely gentle with the audience's prejudices here, and for good reason. I doubt you're at all racist, for example. But considering that was written like thirty years before Avatar, it's going pretty hard on deconstructing stuff audiences take for granted. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 22:09
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I really enjoyed this film, despite finding the book incredibly tiresome and not really clicking with anything else DV has done. As soon as I heard he’d be doing Dune, this was the film I thought I’d get.
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Oct 28, 2021 22:24
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Oct 28, 2021 22:38
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Hodgepodge posted:The point is that this human computer is a fish out of water. lmao
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Oct 28, 2021 22:51
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https://www.tiktok.com/embed/7023549675760356614
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Oct 28, 2021 22:54
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Perfect.
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Oct 28, 2021 23:02
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Halloween Jack posted:I just wonder how many people praising the film ITT haven't read any of the books? Because I saw it with someone who hasn't read any of the books nor seen any of the previous adaptations, and they had the same reaction a lot of people had to the Lynch movie: this is total nonsense and I don't understand what's happening or why. I went with my wife, who hadn't read any of the books or watched any of the movies, and she understood it fine. Villeneuve didn't show the Baron raping young boys or explain what the spider-gimp was, but she managed to piece together that the grotesquely fat, hairless man from the BDSM planet was evil in a Marquis de Sade kind of way. Halloween Jack posted:I like the part where Paul says he'd rather have a song than a fight from Gurney, and it makes no sense because there is no context to know that Gurney Halleck is a bard. Lots of little things like that. Likewise this: they don't show Gurney playing the baliset, but you don't need particular context to understand Paul's comment as expository. Gurney is a stern badass warrior-man, but also he has other facets. He likes to sing sometimes, has a relationship with Paul that isn't purely antagonistic. That line and Paul's general demeanor in the scene speak to that, but if you read it a different way, it doesn't really matter. These kinds of complaints always feel so Marvel-y. "The film leaves space for ambiguity of meaning, and that's bad!" I like the way Denis handled the world-building, because the alternative is to explain everything in the text and bring the story to a screeching halt. The key plot makes perfect sense, so the unexplained strangeness of small details feels like an asset to me. The mentats with their weird white eyes or the Spacing Guild with their orange fishbowl helmets make the world feel lived-in and complex, whether you understand what they're about or not. I think Fury Road is a master class in this. That movie barely explains anything, assaulting you with intense, evocative imagery, but the emotional beats and the general plot stakes still come across fine, so the experience of the movie doesn't suffer for it.
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Oct 28, 2021 23:08
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I would call that reaction... not great. e: Points for the post/user name combo, though. But really, it's okay if you know literally nothing about Dune, but "deconstructing the noble savage" is literally just one of the reason Herbert wrote the book, and you should probably not pretend you aren't talking to a thread full of Dune nerds right now. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 23:10
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Xealot posted:These kinds of complaints always feel so Marvel-y. "The film leaves space for ambiguity of meaning, and that's bad!" I like the way Denis handled the world-building, because the alternative is to explain everything in the text and bring the story to a screeching halt. The key plot makes perfect sense, so the unexplained strangeness of small details feels like an asset to me. The mentats with their weird white eyes or the Spacing Guild with their orange fishbowl helmets make the world feel lived-in and complex, whether you understand what they're about or not. Fury Road explains everything, just not with boring exposition. It's very blunt in its imagery. And despite being set in an endless desert, it's nowhere near as drab as the aesthetic of this movie. I liked some things about this movie and didn't like other things. It's 
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Oct 28, 2021 23:21
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Xealot posted:I went with my wife, who hadn't read any of the books or watched any of the movies, and she understood it fine. Villeneuve didn't show the Baron raping young boys or explain what the spider-gimp was, but she managed to piece together that the grotesquely fat, hairless man from the BDSM planet was evil in a Marquis de Sade kind of way. Yeah, Fury Road is generally considered the go-to example in recent filmography. Given how people who haven't read the book don't seem to dislike it (when they do) specifically because too much or too little was explained in general, it seems as if this might be another candidate. I'll never be able to tell, of course.
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Oct 28, 2021 23:23
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This was a good movie Nerds who get mad at their sci-fi book they’ve read 20 times not being perfectly made into a movie the way they would with all the explanations of technical things is also good I hope the story of Paul losing control of the jihad is told well, it feels like it will be
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Oct 28, 2021 23:56
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I really liked how some of Paul's visions where possible futures, stuff that because of certain choices don't pan out. You generally don't see that.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:06
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If Villeneuve gets the go ahead to make Messiah as the third in the trilogy, Paul walking blind into the desert would actually be a great ending to the series.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:13
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That and potentially misleading metaphors for what would happen, like a proper mystical vision.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:13
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Hodgepodge posted:Also Herbert was writing under the illusion that nice monarchs are naive and suffer from lacking the will to be maximally evil. And also that civilization makes people weak and soft. The nice thing about Herbert is that I don't think he's even playing that entirely straight. Like the Atredies are also a threat to the Emperor because they are popular, and they are popular in large part because they are NOT maximally evil like everyone else. Also their military is considered good even though they are less barbaric than the Harkonnens and come from a nice place... because of comparatively enlightened leadership and training from Leto, Duncan and Halleck. It's also deliberately ambiguous how much of Leto's goodness is sincere vs tactical. I think Leto himself even points this ambiguity out, along with Kynes. The Sardukar are fraudulent in the way the Suk conditioning is, really - it's complacency based on past achievements, not the reality of the present. Like the Suk conditioning being BS isn't because they weren't barbaric enough, surely? Dune is full of people who aren't supposed to be able to fail failing anyway.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:20
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Hodgepodge posted:That and potentially misleading metaphors for what would happen, like a proper mystical vision. That’s how I read it. It’s the future veiled in metaphor. Either interpretation works though.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:21
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Eason the Fifth posted:If Villeneuve gets the go ahead to make Messiah as the third in the trilogy, Paul walking blind into the desert would actually be a great ending to the series. Was it messiah or children where Alya cucks duncan, something about it just seems hilarious with Jason Momoa, head baron all like "look at that priest isn't he super hot don't you wanna break off a piece of that" her being like "nah have you seen my husband? Baron plz!"
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Oct 29, 2021 00:30
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:Was it messiah or children where Alya cucks duncan, something about it just seems hilarious with Jason Momoa, head baron all like "look at that priest isn't he super hot don't you wanna break off a piece of that" her being like "nah have you seen my husband? Baron plz!" Thats Children
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Oct 29, 2021 00:34
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I'm not sure Leto even reads as naive really, unless the idea that he could improve things within the system is naive, which...sure, but what else is he gonna do? Nuke the Kaitain and give the double bird while Caladan is slagged by every other house at once? Run away and get murdered anyway? Plus it's clear that he *does* want the power that the spice represents. He likes the Fremen insofar as they're another source of power, potentially. In many ways he's on the right track more than anybody and acting plenty cynically in his own right, but he can't get everything lined up before the Emperor and the Harkonnens ratfuck him. Like he gets that it's a trap all along, and hopes he can figure it out because he has 3 cosmic tier badasses on his staff and a magic kung fu mistress who is immune to lying. Thufir is supposed to be one of the smartest beings in existence, Halleck is a god tier general and Duncan is the best individual fighter alive maybe, if anybody is going to square that circle it's them... and in almost every other story but this one, they would. But everyone fails in Dune, except maybe the God-Emperor, because he planned his own "failure" at the end. Maybe. At least that's what he wants us to think, etc.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:36
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sean10mm posted:It's also deliberately ambiguous how much of Leto's goodness is sincere vs tactical. I think Leto himself even points this ambiguity out, along with Kynes. The thing I remember about that is a line from the book where someone mentions they're making film stock out of the waste from spice refining and Leto says something like "of course we are, how will people know how good I am at ruling unless I tell them?"
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Oct 29, 2021 00:47
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Spice is amazing because not only is it the greatest drug in the universe, you can make the waste into everything from carpets to explosives.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:50
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Halloween Jack posted:Spice is amazing because not only is it the greatest drug in the universe, you can make the waste into everything from carpets to explosives. 
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Oct 29, 2021 00:55
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https://twitter.com/HeehawwJ/status/1453871931606847490
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Oct 29, 2021 01:03
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Hodgepodge posted:Also Herbert was writing under the illusion that nice monarchs are naive and suffer from lacking the will to be maximally evil. ??? ?
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Oct 29, 2021 01:14
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can we take the movie back, un-release it, and somehow strike Dune knowledge from the brains of most people sean10mm posted:Plus it's clear that he *does* want the power that the spice represents. He likes the Fremen insofar as they're another source of power, potentially. *eyes widen* DESERT power ALFbrot fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Oct 29, 2021 |
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Oct 29, 2021 01:17
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Arglebargle III posted:??? Actually, he was once again critiquing this, but the fact that it so often comes off as didactic repetition of the idea that this and that war could have been won if the losers had only had the will to be more evil is partly because he's critiquing his own ideas. Sadly I don't have a reference for the idea that this involves an idea often found in feudal and business leaders that their will is the primary driving force and source of the activity under their control, because I can't recall where I encountered it. As a general substitute, I'll refer to fascist appropriation of the idea of the "will to power," which of course refers to the will to deploy maximal violence in Nazi ideology instead of the more complex and challenging meaning Nietzsche gave the term. I say he was critiquing his own ideas because he was exploring ideas and asking the reader to challenge them, but he didn't have any idea what an alternative framework would look like. That's clear by the fact that his solution is a 10,000 year reign by a psychic god-king causing genetic aversion to rule by great men, and eventually, men. e: I'm going to say he pretty obviously also read Nietzsche himself, but probably didn't have the benefit of scholarship which would later disentangled him from Nazi ideology at the time. e2: Thinking about it a bit, you might call the Dune series the story of why a "great man" cannot be the ubermensch. I don't really know Nietzsche well enough to be sure, but even Leto II just ends up as a sort of Zarathustra who labours to create the ubermensch. Who is ultimately actually the final Duncan Idaho according to the one thing from his son's poo poo I believe was Frank's. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Oct 29, 2021 |
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Oct 29, 2021 01:36
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what if ther was more dune
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Oct 29, 2021 02:47
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Looking forward to 2UNC, and if it does really well, DU3C
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Oct 29, 2021 03:44
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Defiance Industries posted:The thing I remember about that is a line from the book where someone mentions they're making film stock out of the waste from spice refining and Leto says something like "of course we are, how will people know how good I am at ruling unless I tell them?" I think that's the part where he talks about how great his propaganda corps is. Leto totally knows he's playing a role to gain and control power. What makes him relatively decent is the role he chooses to play as The Good Duke. Hodgepodge posted:The point is that this human computer is a fish out of water. Yeah, this human computer is presented with a value system that he literally can't compute.
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Oct 29, 2021 03:47
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Blood Boils posted:It's solid, but easily the "worst" I've seen in theatres Indie overhyped the film and Last Duel the straight mans catnip "lets show a rape onscreen three times film?" It's like a single sentence version of film bro.
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Oct 29, 2021 03:51
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Eason the Fifth posted:If Villeneuve gets the go ahead to make Messiah as the third in the trilogy, Paul walking blind into the desert would actually be a great ending to the series. Mix three and four, so that we jump to GE and get a movie that really fucks with everyone. Twitter will break when GE goes on. Talk about a weird great book.
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Oct 29, 2021 03:52
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