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Thom12255 posted:The post that started this: Do you believe Obamacare was a reason Democrats lost some elections post-2008? Do you believe if Obamacare helped more people the Democrats would have won some of those elections? If you answered yes to both, then you think Lib and Let Die is right.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:43
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What breeds resentment isn't a fully refundable child tax credit, because it's easy to see that it's good policy that will help people. What breeds resentment is a bunch of politicians talking about how this is the biggest social program of all time while a ton of people are struggling with housing, medical care, and debt and not having that addressed at all. It doesn't mean the CTC is bad, it means you shouldn't leave people out to dry, either ethically or politically.Professor Beetus posted:Here's the part that I read to imply that: Where did you get "replace?" That's the leap.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:47
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What would be wrong with replacing the child tax credit with an equivalent amount for all Americans? Let's say that the tax credit magically becomes permanent overnight, and is expanded so that every person residing within the borders of the united states is given $600 a month, what have parents lost?
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Nov 1, 2021 23:52
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FlamingLiberal posted:Apparently the Progressives are going to try and call Manchin's bluff EDIT: I misread this tweet. If they have the numbers to get the bills through with Mancin, this seems sensible but: https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1455296630085890051?s=20 If their plan is to give Mancin what he wants and then hope Biden can somehow magically deliver, than uh, that's just incredibly naive and stupid, just staggeringly dumb. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Nov 1, 2021 23:52
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Lib and let die posted:What would be wrong with replacing the child tax credit with an equivalent amount for all Americans? Just to be clear, you mean the current payments to children being extended to adults as well, whether or not they have children? Or do you mean replacing it with a payment to adults, whether or not they have children, and children get nothing? This is an important distinction and affects my opinion on it.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:55
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Ciprian Maricon posted:There is zero upside to this, progressives are already going to get blamed for whatever the outcome is in VA, and everywhere in the midterms. The only person who should get blamed for the inevitable defeat in Virginia is Terry McAuliffe himself. quote:Virginia’s Democratic gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe argued that parents should not tell schools what to teach during a debate against his Republican opponent Glenn Youngkin on Tuesday. This is on a par with Dukakis answering the murder of his wife question.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:56
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VideoGameVet posted:The only person who should get blamed for the inevitable defeat in Virginia is Terry McAuliffe himself. Yeah but you know people will find any excuse other than McAuliffe
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Nov 1, 2021 23:57
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FlamingLiberal posted:We're going to be negotiating this bill until the heat-death of the universe Called it. He's never going to come to a deal because holding it up gives him more money and attention, and he can couch it in 'oh I just have CONCERNS' until Biden is gone and the bill is dead, and face no consequence.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:57
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Professor Beetus posted:Here's the part that I read to imply that: I don't get where you get the replace though. The full thing is: quote:Yes. I have not, and will continue to not be shy about my feeling that the child tax credit is not enough of a reparative measure for all Americans, simply based on the fact that it is a "child tax credit" and not a "tax credit for everyone." And I find it hard to get the idea that someone saying they think the child tax credit doesn't do enough to help Americans is saying it shouldn't happen and then be replaced in full. Anything that lib and let die could be advocating from that position would be the CTC and more if they think the CTC doesn't deliver enough.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:58
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J.A.B.C. posted:Called it. He's never going to come to a deal because holding it up gives him more money and attention, and he can couch it in 'oh I just have CONCERNS' until Biden is gone and the bill is dead, and face no consequence.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:59
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Killer robot posted:Just to be clear, you mean the current payments to children being extended to adults as well, whether or not they have children? Or do you mean replacing it with a payment to adults, whether or not they have children, and children get nothing? This is an important distinction and affects my opinion on it. I regret to inform you that there are no direct payments to children from the federal government.
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Nov 1, 2021 23:59
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Killer robot posted:Just to be clear, Lib and let die posted:every person residing within the borders of the united states is given $600 a month I'm not sure how much more specific I can be on this. A child residing within the borders of the united states is...a person residing within the borders of the united states, right? I'd argue in fact that my way would provide more for parents - $600 for each parent, and then $600 for each kid, credited to the parents.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:02
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The CTC could be a great foot in the door for UBI if it was done properly.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:04
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Lib and let die posted:What would be wrong with replacing the child tax credit with an equivalent amount for all Americans? There are a huge number of studies that show that aid to children in poverty has an enormous beneficial effect throughout their lives. Better nutrition leads to better academic performance which leads to better jobs as adults and vastly reduced poverty in that generation and into the future. Direct aid to poor adults doesn't help them anywhere near as much. It appears that once they're grown, a lot of bad habits/thinking patterns get locked in that are really tough to break. Actually lifting them out of poverty is much more difficult with lots of different approaches beyond just giving them money are needed. That doesn't mean that aid to adults does't matter or we shouldn't try, only that aid to children has demonstrated an enormous return and is a critical factor in reducing long-term poverty. It has to be the bedrock of any poverty-reduction program.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:05
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Lib and let die posted:I'm not sure how much more specific I can be on this. A child residing within the borders of the united states is...a person residing within the borders of the united states, right? yes, turning the current ctc into a ubi would be a great start
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Nov 2, 2021 00:08
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Ciprian Maricon posted:If their plan is to give Mancin what he wants and then hope Biden can somehow magically deliver, than uh, that's just incredibly naive and stupid, just staggeringly dumb. So completely on brand for them then?
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Nov 2, 2021 00:08
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VideoGameVet posted:The only person who should get blamed for the inevitable defeat in Virginia is Terry McAuliffe himself. I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:10
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think. Is the paraphrase inaccurate
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Nov 2, 2021 00:12
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think. Okay, so the article can be safely thrown away and he's safe. Cool...the article is mostly just quotes and not even much editorializing. So are those quotes wrong? Since apparently it matters so much CBS news was reporting the same thing like a week or two ago, that the debate comments really struck a nerve and motivated parents.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:14
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Okay, so the article can be safely thrown away and he's safe. Cool...the article is mostly just quotes and not even much editorializing. So are those quotes wrong? Since apparently it matters so much CBS news was reporting the same thing like a week or two ago, that the debate comments really struck a nerve and motivated parents. Heck, iirc within the past month or so education suddenly spiked in the polls as the #1 issue voters in Virginia are concerned about.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:16
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What's sucks is he's not wrong about the situation. Parents should not be involved in school curriculum, and some people seem to take quite a large offense to that.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:18
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Lib and let die posted:I'm not sure how much more specific I can be on this. A child residing within the borders of the united states is...a person residing within the borders of the united states, right? Of course that would be more, that's my whole point. If that was your proposal to start, why didn't you make it then? If you'd led with how you'd rather see UBI starting at birth, there wouldn't be ambiguity whether you meant you wanted UBI for all adults instead of the current UBI for children (through, the legal fiction I've already called out, the fact that payments to children go through the parents). As opposed to Lib and let die posted:Means testing is a hell of a thing to be put through. Every time the democrats means test aid - whether by some arbitrary poverty cap based on 1950's economic data or one's desire or ability to have a child Lib and let die posted:The metric by which the aid is means tested is "is the potential recipient have a dependent child?" Because, again, under the current plan people aren't being paid for having children. People are being paid to support the needs of children, who are people in themselves who do not have the means to care for themselves. In a world where the child tax credit becomes permanent law, everyone benefits from it because everyone is a child at some point. If you think that's still not enough because it ends at 18, that's fine. But it's a different failing than the one you initially described. Someone like me with no children, who is born into an America with the new CTC, benefits exactly as much from it as someone like my brother who has two kids. Would UBI for all 320 million Americans do even more than that? Well, sure!
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Nov 2, 2021 00:23
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Is the paraphrase inaccurate That doesn't matter, its from a bad news place and therefore everything in it is wrong and bad.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:23
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I was looking at the RCP polling aggregator for Virginia, and was kind of surprised that T-Mac has never reached 50 percent in this race over the last two months. The closest was on Oct. 8, when he was at 49.8 compared to Youngkin's 46.5. 
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Nov 2, 2021 00:25
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think. The far right dark net yahoo.com, you can verify the reporting in that story from multiple other reports and the quotes are accurate.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:28
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think. what on earth is this criticism its a freaking paraphrase of a quotation, and includes none of the editorializing that you object to stop hiding behind an incredibly tedious pseudoacademic elitism and actually engage with what posters say in this thread.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:32
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Killer robot posted:Of course that would be more, that's my whole point. If that was your proposal to start, why didn't you make it then? If you'd led with how you'd rather see UBI starting at birth, there wouldn't be ambiguity whether you meant you wanted UBI for all adults instead of the current UBI for children Is your issue that my criticism that the democrats aren't doing enough is wrong or that I didn't present it in the proper manner? I'm happy to debate the merits of means testing aid but I'm not interested in engaging in a signal:noise disrupting derail on whether or not I paid appropriate fealty to the table scraps we (some of us at least) have been given.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:32
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I have a dumb person question about procedural bullshit: so the Progressive Caucus apparently said via Khanna and Jayapal that they're ready to vote on both the BBB and the bi-partisan thing this week, while Manchin came up with new reasons to be concerned about it for no reason and Sinema has been twirling in the coat room with a golf umbrella, so how is it decided which one they're voting on first? Does someone make a motion and then the House votes? Or does the Senate vote first? Or does that actually matter at all because either way there will be amendments on the one or both bills and they'd need to be shifted back over to the other house anyway? Most of the dramatics have been in the senate recently what with Manchin, Sanders, and Sinema being the big names who had important words to say, but didn't Pelosi say that she was going to sit on the bills until some other agreement got reached so that they could only be voted on in tandem? Or did I miss when that changed? I guess what I want to know is: when the actual vote does take place on this, how does it happen? Can someone actually combine the two bills into one vote? Or do they need to be voted on separately no matter what?
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Nov 2, 2021 00:38
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Okay, so the article can be safely thrown away and he's safe. Cool...the article is mostly just quotes and not even much editorializing. So are those quotes wrong? Since apparently it matters so much CBS news was reporting the same thing like a week or two ago, that the debate comments really struck a nerve and motivated parents. It's worth comparing the story to others, because yes, it's pretty straightforward to arrange and contextualize (or in this case, decontextualize) quotes to change the impact. NR leads with ta paraphrase and moves the actual quote downward past a framing section that establishes Youngkin's misrepresentation of the relevant legislation as fact. It also provides no other material from the debate, to make it seem like a massive own of McAuliffe and the dominant element of the event. Here are a few non-right-wing newspapers debate coverage: Washington Post Associated Press quote:“We watched parents so upset that there was such sexually explicit material in the library they had never seen. It was shocking,” he said. “I believe parents should be in charge of their kids’ education.” McAuliffe's response got applause during the actual debate. The thing you think is getting widespread coverage, or reflects the state of the debate, or was some sort of self-own...wasn't. It's resonant among people who are already on the right, and...you, because you bought their framing of it.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:41
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Ershalim posted:I have a dumb person question about procedural bullshit: so the Progressive Caucus apparently said via Khanna and Jayapal that they're ready to vote on both the BBB and the bi-partisan thing this week, while Manchin came up with new reasons to be concerned about it for no reason and Sinema has been twirling in the coat room with a golf umbrella, so how is it decided which one they're voting on first? Does someone make a motion and then the House votes? Or does the Senate vote first? Or does that actually matter at all because either way there will be amendments on the one or both bills and they'd need to be shifted back over to the other house anyway? They're two separate bills. They're only linked because people have chosen to link them. The BIP has passed the Senate and House passage will send it to Biden's desk. The BBB bill has not passed either house, so if the House passes it, it still has to get voted on in the Senate before it can be signed.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:45
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Ershalim posted:I have a dumb person question about procedural bullshit: so the Progressive Caucus apparently said via Khanna and Jayapal that they're ready to vote on both the BBB and the bi-partisan thing this week, while Manchin came up with new reasons to be concerned about it for no reason and Sinema has been twirling in the coat room with a golf umbrella, so how is it decided which one they're voting on first? Does someone make a motion and then the House votes? Or does the Senate vote first? Or does that actually matter at all because either way there will be amendments on the one or both bills and they'd need to be shifted back over to the other house anyway? Bills always originate in the House. However, the Senate can take a bill that has already passed from the house, completely modify it, and then send it back for the house to re-vote on it (this is called concurrence). So in practice either scenario could happen with the House voting first or the Senate voting first. They could also in theory combine both bills into one if they wanted to, but I don't see that happening for political reasons, mostly because the Dems are planning to use reconciliation on the BBB but not on the bi-partisan bill. If they combined the bills into one they'd risk the whole package failing either by failing reconciliation rules or throwing off the carefully-balanced negotiations.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:53
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Discendo Vox posted:It's worth comparing the story to others, because yes, it's pretty straightforward to arrange and contextualize (or in this case, decontextualize) quotes to change the impact. NR leads with ta paraphrase and moves the actual quote downward past a framing section that establishes Youngkin's misrepresentation of the relevant legislation as fact. It also provides no other material from the debate, to make it seem like a massive own of McAuliffe and the dominant element of the event. Here are a few non-right-wing newspapers debate coverage: are you seriously trying to say that mcauliffe is blameless if he loses
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Nov 2, 2021 00:55
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1455158700004581388?t=XhyRPrL-aOwIkirTPwLkzw&s=19 This is a shameful back-stabbing of all the red-state dems that handed Biden the nom. Like why would it ever be considered an option to give governors veto power over any federal legislation? Vote for dems to make the country better, if you live in one of the right 10 states.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:57
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A big flaming stink posted:are you seriously trying to say that mcauliffe is blameless if he loses
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Nov 2, 2021 00:58
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Lib and let die posted:Is your issue that my criticism that the democrats aren't doing enough is wrong or that I didn't present it in the proper manner? I'm happy to debate the merits of means testing aid but I'm not interested in engaging in a signal:noise disrupting derail on whether or not I paid appropriate fealty to the table scraps we (some of us at least) have been given. I think the parts of my post that you selected and deleted in making the reply are relevant there. To put it another way, why did you repeatedly frame aid to children as being aid to breeders or whatever, if your argument was actually that a program that helps both children and adults could be better? It still sounds by your "it could be argued" that you only even picked up on that possibility after doubling down on the "why shouldn't a couple without kids get the same help as one with" sort of talk? I'm not asking you to love the CTC and kiss it and marry it or anything. It just feels really weird and unclear what you even think it is, or alternatively what you think "means testing" is at least in any negative sense. The free pre-K is also means-tested based on whether you are at any point in your life a child, I suppose.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:03
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Blind Pineapple posted:This is a shameful back-stabbing of all the red-state dems that handed Biden the nom. Like why would it ever be considered an option to give governors veto power over any federal legislation? Vote for dems to make the country better, if you live in one of the right 10 states. They got paid, why should they give a poo poo?
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Nov 2, 2021 01:04
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Discendo Vox posted:McAuliffe's response got applause during the actual debate. The thing you think is getting widespread coverage, or reflects the state of the debate, or was some sort of self-own...wasn't. It's resonant among people who are already on the right, and...you, because you bought their framing of it.  It's how the discussion is being framed for a lot of people and why it was probably a mistake. It doesn't really matter how it was meant or received in the moment, it's about how it's received at large. I guess my lying eyes didn't see those interviews on the news and 50% of the state is just far-right.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:09
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Discendo Vox posted:I should not have to reverse search the text of a quote to find that you're posting the National Review mediated by yahoo news. And you should think about how it is that you're winding up with that media crossing your screen. Your perspective on the race may not be as clear as you think. It was the first thing I found on this, but the polls shifted on this event. Always good to do your opposition research. Anyway I think the Democrats should stop running ex-Clinton admin people, but that’s just me.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:10
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Blind Pineapple posted:This is a shameful back-stabbing of all the red-state dems that handed Biden the nom. Like why would it ever be considered an option to give governors veto power over any federal legislation? Vote for dems to make the country better, if you live in one of the right 10 states. It's not routinely possible and, at best, difficult for the feds to assert control over new areas that weren't previously covered; Bruenig indirectly alludes to this by comparing the action to the much-sued-over federally administered healthcare marketplaces. For a grant of funding program, it's likely that the choice for feds is really either to tie the funding to other programs, like ed funding, which has had mixed results, or to make it more enticing by reducing the federal control elements in it (which usually means it gets abused more, such as by being diverted into companies set up for that purpose). Bruenig also undermines his own framing when he acknowledges that originally, 24 states didn't expand Medicaid; that 12 state shift reflects how the expansion of such programs is likely to go over several years, if states do indeed choose not to participate (it's not clear that they will; Medicaid has a different reputation that made refusal appealing to R politicians that doesn't necessarily map onto childcare).
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Nov 2, 2021 01:12
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Killer robot posted:The free pre-K is also means-tested based on whether you are at any point in your life a child, I suppose. Do you mean regular kindergarten? Free pre-k is absolutely means tested, at least in some parts of the country. Here are the requirements for the school district I live in, for free pre-k. If you are not eligible, it's $5,675.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:12
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