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V. Illych L. posted:so your response to "it's bad to assume bad faith" is, effectively, "but it IS just bad faith and/or cognitive dysfunction" and this doesn't strike you as problematic in any way I didn't say either of those things - I am fully aware of the failings of my rhetoric here. The book is good, read the book it will do a much better job than I would do. I was plus one'ing someone else encouraging people to educate themselves on the subject. Why? Because generally speaking I don't find engaging with people on the subject to be constructive, educational or personally edifying. I am not confident in my ability to convince people or to appropriately cover the topic with the nuance that is deserved. I and everyone else am entitled to the odd drive-by post. Further to that I did not imply cognitive dysfunction in anyway, I don't know where you got that from. If you want to have a proper talk about this MAKE A THREAD FOR IT. I will happily post there about the discourse on SW here. V. Illych L. posted:like, i'm not even really opposed to your position here, but there's no point in participating in a discussion like this if that's the strategy of choice. appeals to the privileged insights of the people directly affected also don't work, because those people are also notably divided on the issue, at least where i'm from - that strategy's been demonstrated as ineffective since ayaan hirsi ali got a career off stoking islamophobia, and probably before. the assumption that lived experience produces a unitary opinion, or even necessarily a superior level of insight on the matter at hand, is a very bad one and can be easily linked to several failures of the european left, most obviously the jeremy corbyn antisemitism nonsense. Ofc you're not opposed to my position my position is "the same rights and freedoms as other workers" not "Arm all sex workers" (Arm women tho). Where I am (Ireland) sex workers have sex worker led advocacy and support groups and they have a meaningful voice in the media as they have been platformed here. All of their time is spent trying to dispose of the nordic model. Sex workers are not really split on the subject that decriminalisation is the only way forward, there are enough lay organisations bemoaning irish progressivism at every turn so theres no reason to be split on the matter. You're hardly going to have "Irish hookers for christ" organising to abolish their own profession. There are infinite discussions to be had wrt to the oppression of women on the island of Ireland. The abolitionist and nordic model crowds are essentially reiterating the same arguments and logic as the legion of mary except modernized and made more liberal. Again, would continue at length in an appropriate thread. The Corbyn anti-semitism stuff is a bad comparison imo, that was internal political feuding and was always an astroturfed lie. We need to give meaningful weighting to the lived experience of sex workers and other minority groups when they describe the issues that directly affect them. Repeating what your favourite marxist writer from 1920 had to say about sex workers is generally unhelpful. Being critical and signal boosting what you have been told by interested people who are advocating on their own behalf is a good thing (and is conducive to the dialectic) but should not be confused with the sort of broadly produced narrative that led to extremely suspicious accusations of anti-semitism against corbyn. Moving the goalposts of what anti-semitism actually consists of was also very useful. See the conflation of anti-zionism and anti-semitism. V. Illych L. posted:again, there's no way out of having to actually talk about this stuff in a substantive way and i resent the tendency of thought which sees that part as somehow beneath it and which keeps trying to come up with tricks to avoid having to do it. I appreciate that, its twitter hugbox logic and no one wants to lock horns on the issue of sex work. Make a thread about SW and I'm happy to hang out and post about this stuff there. I'm done here though. Edit: A thread about rhetoric would also be interesting - rhetoric as an educational subject is not something the working or most of the middle classes are able to access which I've always found unsurprising. Southpaugh has issued a correction as of 15:11 on Oct 23, 2021 |
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Oct 23, 2021 15:01
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the point of bringing up the anti-semitism issue is that by all accounts there was a genuine perception among british jewry that corbyn's labour was anti-semitic. this perception was false, however - the affected group was simply factually wrong about a thing related to their own minority status. the subjective perspective is valuable and has to be taken seriously, but it cannot be privileged over other forms of knowledge on an issue. re: this formulation of your position i actually do disagree, because i don't think that the reduction of all forms of sex work (specifically prostitution) into ordinary work can be done successfully without transforming what work means in a pretty radical way. in our current way of dealing with this, it can and will lead to some very unfortunate consequences, including sanctioning people for refusing to work as prostitutes which is not something anyone wants to see (even beyond other dangerous and unpleasant jobs like waste treatment or w/e). this sort of attempted reduction is specifically what i'm talking about when i talk about wanting to avoid substantially discussing the issue, because it simply serves to block discussion of a specific issue by placing it beyond the pale of the present discussion: the problem with sex work isn't that it's sex, it's that it's work is fine as a slogan, but it doesn't survive contact with contemporary reality, which is that we do not want to treat all forms of sex work as we do work in western societies. the reduction, carried out in the most straightforward way, would have consequences which most users of the slogan find unacceptable. this is a good sign that there's an intellectual problem with it. if we change what "work" means, i may find it unproblematic, but we're not operating with a transformed work concept - we're operating with a concept of work within a fairly harsh disciplinary state which can and does encourage people to take up any available work. all discussions of practical legislation on the issue need to take this into account. this is why the nordic model types are pushing their demand-side criminalisation. does it work? that depends on who's looking and what they're after. a fair amount of people see commoditisation of sex as an evil onto itself, and so they're obviously opposd to any kind of regularisation and in favour of the signal effect of this kind of ban. if you're a part of the organised sex workers' groups, it hurts your bottom line and makes life more difficult, so you're opposed to it. most of the talk about trafficking seems like irrelevant posturing to me; trafficking certainly persists in norway and sweden, and as noted earlier it's practically impossible to measure the effects on trafficking anyway - and the main sex workers' organisation in norway certainly have not covered themselves with glory wrt those cases i've followed relatively closely note that, again, i'm not really in favour of criminalisation (nordic model or otherwise) either, but the issue is difficult and it merits serious discussion. i do not see why we should need to restrict it to a specific and dedicated thread, though, and while i can respect your reluctance to properly engage here i don't really understand it.
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Oct 23, 2021 17:23
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Re read your post there and you will see that you refer to a number of points that's are without context and I don't understand what you're getting at at all. You have basically perfectly and completely illustrated why I wasn't willing to engage on the subject fully. People get so loving weird about sex work.
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Oct 27, 2021 12:13
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V. Illych L. posted:if you're a part of the organised sex workers' groups, it hurts your bottom line and makes life more difficult, so you're opposed to it. Pretty euphemistic way of saying it makes your work significantly more dangerous and therefore more likely that you will be the victim of violence. Now you are right that the issue is difficult. And I also agree with you that sex work isn't *just* work. There is to my mind a distinction, though in most circumstances I don't think that distinction ought to matter. This being a rather difficult subject also makes it difficult to post about. Not in the least because one would need quite a lot of words, and thus time, to fully articulate the facts pertaining to the issue and then ones position. And so I find myself recommending a book which treats all of the issues mentioned at length from a perspective that I would expect would generally align ideologically quite well with posters on this forum, and which I found very enlightening besides. I share the opinion of Southpaugh that many (most?) are not well informed about this topic, and do want to encourage others to further educate themselves. Just as I have been encouraged to further educate myself on it by posters on these forums. Maybe one day I will have the time, energy and will to post about this topic at great length. Today isn't that day.
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Oct 27, 2021 14:12
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Orange Devil posted:Pretty euphemistic way of saying it makes your work significantly more dangerous and therefore more likely that you will be the victim of violence. to my knowledge there's no good data on this either, going off the norwegian and swedish official inquiries on the matter. the difficulty of doing research on the specific effects on policy in this field cuts both ways, so i opted for a more minimalistic formulation i will reiterate that it's a sign that an issue is in a very bad place when people just flat-out refuse to discuss it beyond stating a position and redirecting the matter somewhere else. if something is obviously right it is normally not be that difficult to argue the case. this is an issue with an awful lot of vitriol going on which makes it prudent to be a little cagey, so i do have a measure of sympathy, but that itself is not a great sign Southpaugh posted:Re read your post there and you will see that you refer to a number of points that's are without context and I don't understand what you're getting at at all. i'm happy to clarify or to be met with rebuttals on this issue, because i have no stake here which is not mainly intellectual. V. Illych L. has issued a correction as of 17:41 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 17:39
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SplitSoul posted:They gave the Sakharov Prize to Navalny. Given they were considering giving it to Jeanita Anez, it's a step up at least.
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Oct 28, 2021 08:58
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/25/this-is-their-time-post-golden-dawn-is-the-far-right-reviving-in-greece In a move that prompted outrage last week, a court upheld an appeal by the imprisoned Golden Dawn cadre, Giorgos Patelis, allowing him to walk free on the grounds that his son was ill. As the party’s leader in the capital’s working-class district of Nikaia, Patelis was serving a 10-year jail term for ordering the killing of Pavlos Fyssas, an anti-fascist hip-hop artist whose death would eventually spur the group’s unravelling. what the gently caress is wrong with the greek courts? couldn't they just give him a day out to spend with his kid or something, they had to actually let him go?
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Oct 28, 2021 10:46
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So what's up with the Hungarian election? The opposition is planning to defeat a culturally conservative christian by fielding a candidate who is also a culturally conservative christian (who might be less openly corrupt)?
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Oct 28, 2021 21:20
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The French have decided the only way to deal with the UK when it comes to fishing rights is through and I quote, "the language of strength". France seizes British trawler as post-Brexit fishing row spirals quote:France has seized one British trawler for operating in its territorial waters without a licence and fined another as a bitter dispute with the United Kingdom over post-Brexit access to fishing grounds escalates.
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Oct 28, 2021 23:16
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they just got completely humiliated by the australians so jupiter might be feeling like he doesn't have a lot of give at the moment
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Oct 28, 2021 23:17
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Togger posted:So what's up with the Hungarian election? Ad far as I understand it: Choosing the lesser of two evils so the vote doesn't get split. With the hope the new guy at least does normal politics over Orban's powergrabs.
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Oct 28, 2021 23:29
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https://twitter.com/HassounMazen/status/1453787146393903106
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Nov 1, 2021 19:32
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Also the camp is located on military training grounds so they can adjust to the sound of gunfire and explosions before being shipped off to a war zone.
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Nov 2, 2021 11:00
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violence towards europe is a moral good
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Nov 2, 2021 11:43
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I don’t know where to post this, so umm here aged like a fine wine
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Nov 7, 2021 03:56
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 number one baby (it's covid)
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Nov 8, 2021 12:48
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https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1466138423249580042
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Dec 1, 2021 21:48
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more like FU
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Dec 2, 2021 08:06
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https://twitter.com/A_Schillhaneck/status/1466933046637211656
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Dec 5, 2021 18:47
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quote:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-06/sweden-starts-oil-fired-plant-to-help-poland-avoid-power-outages
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Dec 8, 2021 03:20
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Denmark's former Integration Minister was impeached under the Ministerial Responsibility Act and gets 60 days, but will probably serve with an ankle monitor. Might be declared unfit for parliament as well. There goes her dreams of leading the Danish People's Party for the time being. Funny that the two most popular choices for the position right now are convicted criminals. Her first official act was deporting two orphaned teenage Hazara brothers to Afghanistan where the younger one was almost immediately murdered. She also celebrated immigration restrictions with cake. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/13/danish-ex-minister-gets-prison-term-for-splitting-migrant-couples
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Dec 14, 2021 08:26
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https://twitter.com/bitchrespecter/status/1470683500886077440
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Dec 14, 2021 10:27
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ted hitler hunter posted:The Texas of Europe. the problem in texas was that the state, to avoid federal regulations, was actually not meaningfully connected to other states' power grids. so actually the poles are way smarter. gently caress i hope we don't have another freeze this year lol
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Dec 14, 2021 16:41
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https://twitter.com/enxeny/status/1471531864464703493 lmfao
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Dec 17, 2021 14:27
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explain please? 
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Dec 17, 2021 16:27
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Honj Steak posted:explain please?
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Dec 17, 2021 17:01
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Honj Steak posted:explain please? it's from the previous croatian presidential election the man speaking is a candidate who is praising corruption and pledging to be corrupt while in office he's a director who made a documentary about the owner of the biggest croatian company who later got indicted for financial crimes before the election he changed his name to that of the capitol's mayor, another icon of corruption
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Dec 17, 2021 20:38
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sorry, i was gonna explain a bit but then i got distracted basically what jeep said, also he says stuff like "everyone even the little guy should have good access to corruption, corruption is the natural state of this country, corruption should be our main import and export, nato and EU are corruption central obviously we want in on that" etc it's just top poo poo, wish we had good candidates like that up north in slovenia too 
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Dec 19, 2021 18:50
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That’s not even the best bit from that one debate. The best bit was when the communist candidate destroyed the right wing dude who was pretty much the front runner at the time.
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Dec 19, 2021 19:40
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SplitSoul posted:Denmark's former Integration Minister was impeached under the Ministerial Responsibility Act and gets 60 days, but will probably serve with an ankle monitor. Might be declared unfit for parliament as well. There goes her dreams of leading the Danish People's Party for the time being. Funny that the two most popular choices for the position right now are convicted criminals. What on earth is going on over in Denmark right now. I know there was a strong reactionary streak in the country's politics building steam for a while but, what is going on over there right now
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Dec 19, 2021 19:43
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Nitevision posted:What on earth is going on over in Denmark right now. I know there was a strong reactionary streak in the country's politics building steam for a while but, what is going on over there right now
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Dec 19, 2021 20:05
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Nitevision posted:What on earth is going on over in Denmark right now. I know there was a strong reactionary streak in the country's politics building steam for a while but, what is going on over there right now To clarify, the Hazara brothers had their application rejected under Social Democrat rule, their deportation was just effectuated right after she came into office. They were interviewed shortly before that and the kid explained how he hoped against hope that he'd be allowed to stay and one day become a doctor. She will be declared unfit for parliament on Tuesday and won't be able to serve with an ankle monitor unless she finds employment. The Danish People's Party has reneged on the clearing agreement and is therefore forcing all MPs to vote in person as Omicron demolishes the country.  The current Social Democrat Integration Minister, himself the son of an Ethiopian refugee, chose the week of her conviction to propoose violating conventions again by revoking citizenship for certain crimes.
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Dec 19, 2021 20:40
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Truga posted:it's just top poo poo, wish we had good candidates like that up north in slovenia too he's in the zagreb (croatian capital) city assembly (or whatever it's called in english) right now, i think he's caucusing with the green-left coalition, which is in power right now they seem like well meaning succdems to me, which is better than the grasping bastard(s) before them but i expect to see them crushed by the right Take the plunge! Okay! posted:That’s not even the best bit from that one debate. The best bit was when the communist candidate destroyed the right wing dude who was pretty much the front runner at the time. this is miroslav škoro, a croatian singer well known for his right wing views he came in third in the first round of the presidential elections and tore away a good chunk of the right wing incumbent's votes, who maybe might've won in the first round outright without him, but she lost int he 2nd round against the former prime minister - an ostensibly social-democratic candidate, who is actually some smorgasbord of neoliberalism, patriotic posturing, social liberalism and whatever else strikes his fancy or gets him a few more votes later his party went to hell in a handbasket, turns out he bought jewelry for his assistant/secretary using party funds, and also sold his wines and CDs to them
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Dec 20, 2021 02:35
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Head of the Danish Defense Intelligence Service has been arrested and charged with leaking state secrets to the media. He's actually been in custody for a month already, but it's all been hush-hush until today.
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Jan 10, 2022 11:59
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Also fits here. Because of course.
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Jan 10, 2022 12:18
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SplitSoul posted:Head of the Danish Defense Intelligence Service has been arrested and charged with leaking state secrets to the media. He's actually been in custody for a month already, but it's all been hush-hush until today. A Buttery Pastry has issued a correction as of 13:07 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 12:30
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what secrets was he leaking? was it in service of influencing domestic politics in some direction?
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Jan 10, 2022 17:03
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unknown at this point, trial is behind closed doors
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Jan 10, 2022 17:13
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genericnick posted:Also fits here. Because of course.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:04
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on the german conquest of europe https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/ultra-vires Poland, according to Brussels, needs to be taught a lesson, and not just because of the government’s packing of the constitutional court with judges dear to the heart of the majority party. Both the constitutional court and the government believe in a narrow interpretation of European legal supremacy, rather than the broad one preferred by the EC, EP and CJEU. As a result, the Polish constitutional court is likely to find certain, but not all, legal commands emerging from Brussels to be ultra vires, transgressing the limits of European jurisdiction, thereby violating not only Polish law but also the European Treaties to the extent that EU member countries have in the Treaties ceded only some but not all legal powers to the Union. [...] the Polish constitutional court, supported by the ‘anti-European’ Polish government, likes to invoke a recent decision by the German constitutional court, the Bundesverfassungsgericht (BVG). Having long been seen as a paragon of both political independence (thanks to its careful appearance management) and EU loyalty, the BVG recently declared the CJEU ultra vires for finding the BVG in breach of European law, in particular for failing to affirm loud and clear its general supremacy over national law on an issue relating to the powers of the ECB to commit national central banks to support specific supranational monetary policies [...] This, however, did not satisfy the EC. Under pressure in particular from Green German MEPs, it declared Germany to be in breach of the Treaties for its constitutional court having suggested that the EU’s vires may perhaps have at least some limits after all [...] a few days before the new German government was to be sworn in, the Commission all of a sudden dropped its case against Germany, without much ado and so inconspicuously that the German press hardly noticed, or could pretend not to notice [...] the German government had ‘committed itself to use all means available to actively avoid (aktiv zu vermeiden) a future repetition of an ultra vires finding (eine Wiederholung einer Ultra-vires-Feststellung)’. [...] What is at stake here is what has been called ‘integration by law’, which has over time evolved, more or less by default, into the most important mechanism for bringing about the Treaties’ ‘ever closer union among the peoples of Europe’. This is because the now 27 member states are unlikely to unanimously agree on a revision of the Treaties to extend the power of the Union, not least because some would need to have the revision approved by popular vote. Thus, an alternative route to supranational state or empire-building has to be found, bypassing the need for a formal Treaty revision [...] The way this works can be seen by comparing the cases of Poland and Germany. Germany was accused because its constitution allowed its constitutional court enough independence to rule against the national government – in other words, for its government not preventing the court taking a view different from that of the government, thereby upholding the rule of law. When, upon pressure from Brussels, the German government promised that it would see to it that the court would from now on rule in line with the national government, thereby committing itself to curtailing the independence of the court, and with it the rule of law, proceedings were ended on the grounds that the country had promised to respect the supremacy of European law. Poland, on the other hand, is accused of, and is already being punished for, not allowing its court enough independence to rule against the national government, thereby curtailing the rule of law, this time however by allowing the national court to challenge the doctrine of the universal supremacy of European over national law. [...] In effect this turns the battle over the rule of law into an instrument of imperial elite management aimed at national regime change. [...] How does integration by law fit the worldview of the new German government, and what are its prospects for the future of the ‘European project’? [...] for Germany, integration by law rather than by convention is the ideal method to build a German-dominated European state or empire: rule-based rather than politics-driven, proceeding through juridical authority instead of political legitimacy, based on ‘values’ and derived, with juridical expertise and authority, from norms rather than interests, drawing for legitimacy on obedience to the law instead of political consent, and engineered behind closed doors by academically trained specialists [...] The only problem is that Germany’s indispensable European co-hegemon, France, has little enthusiasm for this approach, historically and culturally preferring politics over legalism, discretionary over rule-bound decision-making, and personal leadership over the impersonal application of legal norms. In fact, the French political class seems increasingly disillusioned with the preferred German route to ‘Europe’, which it sees less and less as leading toward a ‘European sovereignty’ modelled on the French that can be projected worldwide [...] von der Leyen was quoted by the EU’s PR office as saying that ‘EU law has priority over national law, including constitutional law’, a principle which according to her ‘had been accepted by all EU member states as members of the European Union’. Rhetoric like this has the potential of waking up hordes of sleeping dogs in national capitals
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Jan 10, 2022 20:15
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